RWCs,3Ns,weakened teams and destroying Traditions

Today I watched a Bok side with 21 starting players missing,lose by a record score to an All Black side at home,last week virtually the same side was demolished by the Wallabies.
Rumours abound that not only are the 21 players missing are either 1.I n light rehabilitation mode,or 2 In a secret camp in intensive training for the RWC.or 3 they are genuinely injured.
Pierre de Villiers says one thing,a Spokesman for SARFU says another.
The extended Super 15 has taken a huge toll of injuries some serious,but it seems in all of the 3N countries they are taking a very long time to heal conveintly,It Disgusts and Angers me[VERY Much].That two of the Worlds PREMIERE comps are treated in such a cavalier fashion,when an All Black coach SAY Who remembers a 3N s series in RWC year as if it does`nt matter.
Well here`s News for you,I DO and I CARE who am I NO ONE in the scheme of things BUT it has come to a poor pass when THE GREATEST RIVALs in WORLD RUGBY throw away games in the name of a RWC.I may be wrong ,I hope I am that these are genuinely injured and will be drip fed back in the Home legs and Currie Cup to get them fit for the RWC.
IF the BOKS are following the 2007 precedent then I hope they are unsuccessful in there Defence of it,for myself I do not care WHO wins the RWC.
The BOKS have a proud Rugby heritage there overall record is better than any but the All Blacks,they have achievements NO All Black side can match,They won a Series in NZ on a full Tour in 1937,and have several grand Slams in Europe [at least two]beating the 5Ns in 1951-2,and 1960-1.The All Blacks have never beaten the Boks at home in a traditional series there best results being 2-2 in 1928 and 1-1-2 in 1960.Nor have they achieved the classic Grand Slam in Europe.although they have had several unbeaten tours.There best result 4 wins ,I draw in 1963-4.Until they dropped out after1982 the Boks had a plus score of two matches,it could be argued that the all Blacks selection was weakened in the period 1928-60 due to Aparthied.Certainly in 1928 Jimmy Mill and George Nepia may have made a difference,and certainly the 1949 side would have been greatly strengthened especially at Half Back this being THE Great era of Maori rugby.
I have heard rumours that SA coaching and Playing appointments are on Politically Correct rota system,which if true to me is wrong,for me the best man for the job gets it player.coach or management.
Todays game a VERY strong All Blacks team ,beat a team of willing but disjointed Boks,many of the Boks individually played well Lambie ,and John Smit especially,Allain Roland refereed the game well.Leaving both sides in no doubt what he wanted,the breakdown ,and scrum especially a lot was going on for both sides.
The All Blacks many players with question marks over there names had stormers,Muliana,Cory Jane,Nonu,Cowan,Carter,McCaw,Thomson.Ali Williams,Hore,
Next week Henry announced he will pick his first team,whatever that is,for me Owen Franks starting for Ben,Mealamu for Hore.and Read at number eight with Kaino dropping to the bench and thomson continueing at six.Thorn going to the bench with,Williams and Whitelock starting.The back division would start en masse.

A new emoticon that I think is quite apt here.

Hi ya Alan. Its simply about change.
Whether we like it or not the World cup represents who the current world champion is at any point in time since it was first won in 1987.

It may not please you but in Larsens defence thats HIS reality. He has to deal with the fact that although we won the 3N, swept aside allcomers since the year dot people will always be measuring HIS success by the results of the World cup.

Its professional sport and like everyone else, the ABs have to stand up and test themselves on the world stage in the same way as everyone else and in a world cup year if thats means putting things aside, 'devaluing' them, then thats the reality.

Personally, I like it. I like the challenge ahead of us. Theres not a lot I need to see the ABs overcome in sport but they need to overcome the premature exits of the last 20+ years and they seem to be doing it with minimal (rather than wholesale and embarrassing) preservation of our players.

I think in this way the extra challenge placed on the AB3 should be commended- they are preserving the AB success rate, while at the same time maximising the chances in the World cup.

Previous AB coaches and teams didnt have to face this challenge or the complexity of it. They just rolled up, picked their best team and won, then did it again. MUCH easier in those days.

Yeah. I'm with you emack, if PDV has rested players for the 3N deliberately with the intention of sacrificing the tournament as a whole rather than strategically to help win the tournament, then it's wrong.

I don't like the hoo-ha over the RWC and making it the be all and end all. It's just a competition, with a short history and hasn't honestly produced great results in terms of a spectacle or "growing the game". 7's seems to have achieved a lot more on both fronts.

No one is suggesting the the 'boks have fallen so far that the last two weekends are representative of where they stand in global terms. There are difficult changes going on in SA that I don't pretend to know anything about or have any answers and I from my perspective thinking about it in terms of rugby is probably a bit simplistic and selfish. Kind of makes a mockery of what we're told was the "significance of 1995" is about my only two-cents on that.

I sigh at the whole professionalism thing to be honest. Mercenaries trotting the globe with seemingly interchangeable nationality. Long held traditions turned over in the name of Nike's sales. I can live with out the flame throwers and the gladiator comparisons and the swirling theatrical music too, post-score music on the PA and dancing girls....(well maybe the Bulls cheerleaders can stay) Maybe I'm getting a bit long in the tooth and sentimental and/or grumpy with it, but if they only point is to attracti people to watch rugby who clearly aren't interested in the actual rugby then IMO it's just about money and we may as well encourage people show up to watch a coke production line on a Saturday.

Alan, on many of your points I share your sentiment.

If you are angered by this, imagine how a proud Bok supporter must feel, we have been living with the PC for some time and have slowly seen the legacy of Springbok rugby being destroyed, once we also had an air of invincability, now we on a bad day lose to teams that in the past had virtually no wins against us.

BUT

This is the price we pay for the sins of our fore fathers, and sadly the status quo will remain as such.

Unforunately tests being devalued because of RWC is not limited there only, we have seen teams travelling South and North reduce their squad`s quality by seeing end of season tours merely as commoitments to TV bosses, and could care less about results.

The blame should be spread around to all guilty parties and National rugby unions are only part of the problem.

But to wish the Springboks players to have an unsuccessful tournament based on decisions not made by them is ungentlemanly as well as leave a sour taste in my mouth

Hi,Biltong IF I have offended you by suggesting they Have an unsuccessful
RWC.In the case of the players I feel distictly sorry as it is beyond there control.
My point was that THE RWC should`nt be considered the Holy grail it is just another tournament.
Money and politics involved stinks you are a proud Bok,with a team of great
past.
Many of the people I worked with,were SA born,and we discussed Rugby often.
When ANY side sent out by many on tour are devalued it shames the game.
The END does NOT Justify the means,I cannot fathom how a side as strong in Rugby as SA was pre 1982 could have such a poor record relatively speaking since.
On Sky Television prematch Bobby Skinstedt was talking about the 3Ns win by SA in 1998 and how great it was for him.
It should be the Boks have only done it 3 times since 1996 and only 12 times since 1921.

PDV may have got the raw end of the pineapple in having to do the away leg first.

We should probably wait and see what kind of AB side goes to SA, or Wallaby side goes out there. Whoever wins the AB v Aus matches will have moral authority in sending a depleted squad, but only by virtue of this years draw.

Politics aside the SA powers are not confident of their ability to compete at levels of years gone by. They could still win the world cup and as in 2007 SA"s performance in the 3N is irrelevant. And as Larsen said "who remembers the 3N' that year?
I think SA have just damaged their reputation a little. Not their world cup chances.
And if they win it pdv will be a hero and once again, no one will remember last nites match.
Its an all eggs in one basket approach and i guess youre right in one respect. The ABs cant afford that approach. Their legacy simply wont allow it.
So we might end up having to face the fire because of it- our pain all coming suddenly in the one knockout match rather than via this dull ongoing ache that SA seem prepared to endure.

We were talking about this the other night down my local get-a-life club.

Agree gg. GH hinted at leaving the mealamu and co quartet at home during the SA leg.
But tge again its about percentages. We have got a good chance of stealing this if we beat oz.
But geez i still think we got tons from last night regardless of the score.
The development of key ?mark players was helped immensely in terms of their development.

When I wrote this thread I was talking with my heart NOT my head. Consider hiding players from the S14 as the NZ selectors did,so I was glad the Bulls won that year.
Playing stiffs in 3Ns and Hiding BOKs in Provincial matches 2007 and 2009 Lions tour,and IF it is happening again I consider it shameful and sharpe practice.
Of course its not the Players fault,but the Politicians or whoever are trying to use it to advantage I do not wish well.

Hi ya pj. Its all about us at the moment we know.
We get just as paranoid about things down here you know.
Score for nz oz next week please...

I don`t want to see weakened sides sent for the away legs of the 3Ns,as to the side last night.
It could be argued pre injury Williams,Hore,and Thompson were all regular starters.
Woodcock is unfit,Crockett is the logical replacement and the Franks brothers have been rotated as Haymens replacement.
Sivivatu and Gear are currently injured and Guildford is a viable replacement
The rest of the backline was the first choice next year.

Hi Taylorbloke, you know where I'm coming from.

28- 24?

37-32?

I reckon tries scored will be fairly even, NZ will shade it on the penalty count given their better discipline up front, but expect it to be a one-score game, from which Australia may draw some false hope...

emack, I don't think anyone "WANTS" to see weakened sides in any competition, but after an elongated S15 campaign followed quickly by a 3N tourney that finishes just weeks before the WC - surely the head has to rule the heart?

It's a fine balance to be sure, but each side will attempt to lay down at least one marker, probably at home and probably against the team that they percieve to be their biggest rivals, I'm looking forward to the next game for exactly that reason.

Expect Australia to start like a rocket,lead at half time then lose by maybe a couple off scores.Hope the only changes to starting side Read for Kaino and do the usual Brothers Grimm rotation bit.Another 4-0 3Ns title will do very
nicely if theres no injuries.

Injuries - that's the bitterest pill of all if you play your best week-in, week- out during the 3N.

Best wait till September for that caper, that's the way I see it.

Of course but my ethos is different to others here,you play your strongest
side to win EVERY match that is the All Black way.
IF they win the 3Ns and NOT the RWC I really don`t care they HAVE to try,there is no disgrace to losing to a better side on the day.
THERE is a big disgrace in throwing[or targetting in the jargon] and losing
tha t for an All Black side for me is beyond the pale.

Yep im about the same with perhaps a bigger margin. Too close for my liking!
Im actually counting down the days to the wcup now. I have personal and family goals to meet by then and this makes it a fun way to involve everyone.

Have to admit keeping normal things normal during the cup will be tricky. Like a kid in a candy store with all this rugby around.