Puzzled

This is a question mainly for the South African players picked for the BOKS THE best available players irrespective of religon ,politics,or racial characteristics?.
I have said this before I cannot fathom the relative decline in Bok Rugby since the return,I do not as a rule watch anything other than test Rugby.But when I have watched
SA sides in S15 or Currie Cup they have huge depth in there Rugby.
Is it the travel element?coaching?Neutral referees?not adapting to the laws ?What?It breaks my heart seeing a Bok Scrum[3-4-1 THE BOK SCRUM]going backwards,it seems the days of
"find me Tight Head prop and I will build my team around him" have gone.
IS a Bok coach forced to pick inferior players for the Boks for political reasons?as perhaps THE Greatest All Black fan alive Iam glad they have done so well BUT to dominate both3Ns and Super Rugby to such an extent worry`s me.
Have the ALL BLACKS REALLY been that good or are we just kidding ourselves?.it seems the Boks now have caught the RWC disease? as the only comp that counts because they have pretty much dominated THAT.

emack2

I said in my post yesteday that the Abs was good, but in all honesty SA was poor, very poor infact and with PDV leaving his best players at home imo as done SA no favours at hall.

No doubt that the Abs will get a lot of confidence from the yesterday going forward to the RWC, but will they be over confident and think it will be an easy ride? Who knows but for now NZ are looking good.

As for SA after the last 2 games they are not looking so well and will have to change their tactics and their players befiore the RWC.

Good question alan. Id love to know too.
I posted a rather harsh one about this earlier today but then withdrew it.
Stats since 2000 show SA also dont want to share their best rugby overseas.
Theyve lost 41 from 78 abroad including 13 or so in the NH.
At home theyve only lost a quarter of that same period.
Many of those trips were seconds teams so this aint new. Last AIs it was to blood new players. So where are they now?
The fact that theyre hard at home is true. Perhaps because other than world cups thats the only time you get their best sides last 2 years 3N aside
So id like to know why that is as well.
Its not that they arent good enough because their sxv sbd currie cup proves they have as solid a base as ever.
So wheres the disconnect?

It`s a fact that they`ve only won 8.matches in NZ since 1921,but they were more or less Full strength sides.
The All Blacks before the fall had only won 5 and drawn 1 in SA ,the Boks had won 5 in NZ in the same period.
THE best two sides in the world seperated by 2 matches win loss in period 1921-82[18-16 boks] shows that the Defacto World title rested more orless on who was at Home.
Post return the AB`s have a near 40% win rate in the Republic and the Boks did`nt win for 10 years at Capetown.
When you also Consider period 1992-1997 [before Fitzy and Co, retired]the Boks only won 2 and drew 1 out of 12 matches versus The All Blacks including the 1995 RWC.The All Blacks winning 9 including 4 out of 5 in 1996 against virtually the same RWC winning Bok side 3of thosein SA.
Methinks there is something rotten in the state of Denmark?

Hamlet isnt it?
1996 was pretty special and even though we lost the 95 team was a very good team.
just not good enough to score tries against the boks.
34 Tests over 60 years much of it under very prescribed selection conditions is a bit hard to use as a standard though no reason to suggest things would have been different.
Its a very turbulent history SA have even for rugby and i still think it will take at least 2 generations before the youth born post 92 really turn things around.
Theyll get there.

Alan, this is going to be long winded, but perhaps worth a read.

Coaching history

Kitch Christie

Kitch Christie was appointed coach of the springboks just prior to the Argentina tour to SA in October 1994, prior to that he was appointed as coach of the then Transvaal (Lions) in 1992 and immediately led them to 2 consecutive Currie cup trophies in 1993 and 1994, he also led them to the inaugural Super rugby Trophy in 1993.
He had the track record when appointed SA coach and had a record of 14 tests, and 14 wins, the only coach other than Felix du Plessis who managed a 100% record in 1964.
Due to illness Christie had to give up the reigns in early 1996.

Andre Markgraaff

Andre Markgraaff was appointed as coach of Griqualand west rugby union in 1988 a second tier Union with very little success, and then elected president of Griquas in 1991. After the retirement of Kitch Christie in 1996 he was appointed coach of South Africa. He immediately got rid of Francois Pienaar with much controversy and also decided to alter some aspects of the springbok play at that time, most notable was his theory of kicking for the corner to set up lineouts 5 meters from opposition goal line and attempt the rolling maul to effect tries.
After racial issues he was forced to resign his position. During his tenure as coach he had 8 wins from 13 tests a 61% win ratio. During this time he lost 4 out of 5 tests to New Zealand and this coincided with their first tests series win in South Africa since the two countries met for the first time. It was also at that stage where New Zealand overtook SA with NZ winning 22 and SA winning 21 with 3 draws.

Carel du Plessis

Fondly known as the Prince of wings back home, Carel du Plessis was appointed controversially as the Springbok coach in 1997 prior to the British and Irish Lions tour, and suffered a series loss despite outscoring the Lions in tries, but with no accurate goal kickers he made heavy weather of the series and then led the springboks to a woeful Tri Nations series. Only to be dumped and replaced by Nick Mallet.

Nick Mallet.

Nick Mallet one of the most successful coaches in SA rugby history in my view, achieved many successes as a rugby player and was part of the squad when Western Province won 4 successive Currie Cup trophies between 1982 and 1985.
He started his coaching career in France where he played and coached until 1992 when he returned back to SA to coach the Boland cavaliers in 1995 and 1996.
After the disasterous tenure of Carel du Plessis he was then appointed coach of the springboks.
During this time he rewrote the record books with several big wins against France, Scotland and Ireland, and had a run of 17 wins in succession from 1997 to November 1998, including south africa’s first Tri Nations trophy. During his time as coach he achieved 27 wins out of 38 tests and a win rate of 71%.
Unfortunately he resigned his post in September 2000, when called in for a disciplinary hearing after comments he made regarding ticket prices and being charged with bringing the game into disrepute.

Harry Viljoen

As a successful businessman Harry Viljoen got involved with Western Province prior to coaching the springboks.
He was appointed coach in 2000 and had the idea of running the springbok rugby players like a business, I am not exactly sure what he meant by that, but it had something to do with having senior players be responsible for pockets of inexperienced players as part of his chain of command. As a springbok coach he failed miserably and only had a 53% win rate.

Rudolf Strauili

When Rudolf Straeuli was appointed coach of the Country’s hopes were high that he would be the man to restore world order, he was a man that cared about rugby. Perhaps this link would provide an idea of who he was as a man. http://www.bedfordrugby.co.uk/archives/Rudi.htm.
Unfortunately as a disciplinarian and a coach he was perhaps taking it too serious and failed with what he set out to do.
His win ratio is lowest of all modern day springbok coaches and Kamp Staaldraad is what he is known for, during his tenure as coach he won only 12 out of 23 tests, but only 2 of them were wins against the top six countries, losing 15 vs the giants of world rugby.

Jake White 67%, No need to go into depth here.

Peter de Villiers 60%, been spoken about enough.

When looking at the coaching history of south Africa, one tning that springs to mind is that our selection processes with coaches are questionable. Very few of them has any form of tangible track records that can suggest they may be successful. Kitch Christie in my view was the only coach appointed that had a resume that would substantiate his appointment.

Most of the others just based on resumes should not have been considered. This tells me that the Management of SARU should be blamed for much of our recent history.

We simply do not appoint the best man for the job.

Interesting.

What are your thoughts on:
John Williams (1992)
Ian MacIntosh (1993-1994)

emack2 wrote:as perhaps THE Greatest All Black fan alive

Oh dear. So, this is you ? http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/5317348/Brit-claims-to-be-All-Blacks-biggest-fan

blackcanelion wrote:Interesting.

What are your thoughts on:
John Williams (1992)
Ian MacIntosh (1993-1994)

Neither really had a long enough shot to achieve much, both selected mainly their own squads, Bulls and sharks at the time, and had to bring SA rugby out from isolation.

So in fairness to them, difficult to give an honest opinion about.

Nottins don`t be a WUM,don`t become another Cyril[unless you are Him]
contributing nothing but trying to get a rise out of people.
I don`t walk around in the latest strip,or tattoo myself.I am passionate in my Rugby beliefs as anyone,and have my prejudices too.
They were founded I suspect long before many here were born,every one has opinions.
Everyone the right to support whoever they please,when I watch a match I try to be objective.
On Saturday I watched a team lashed on by there media produce a very solid ,competent effort many of the Combinations were down to S15 familiarity.Nonu.Smith.Jane,Carter,and Guildford etc.
The other side were on a hiding to nothing,I was hoping they would run the ABs close,they didn`t.
The Boks as individuals played well,but not in combinations THAT can only happen when you play and train as a team.
Post RWC I suspect when the usual suspects have retired or gone for cash they will be a very good team indeed.
I feel sorry for Morne Steyn,in 2009 he is hailed as a steel eyed assasin ,did what his coach wanted.put his team in the right areas
Then kicked the points that mattered 44 straight Goals in a 3Ns is incredible record.had only two shots at goal and kicked one of them.
Wellington is a tricky ground for goal kickers due to swirling winds.
Nottins from your posts I suspect you are as passionate about England as I am about NZ Rugby,I to care about England rugby.
Because I don`t express beliefs as you does`nt make me wrong or you right or vice versa.
IF you want to give me an opinion about English Rugby tell me what you think about the farce with the SUITS running English Rugby is it detrimental to the team.?
Do you think more Players coming through the Clubs/Academies should be picked,rather than players qualified through residence.?
Do you think Martin Johnson is the right man to take England Forward post RWC.?
Do you think it is time to retire players like Tindall and Wilkinson who have been great servants of England but now should be retired ?
Living with success of 2003 Rwc,is like the 1966 RWC for England and 1987 for NZ.
The Game has moved on for both sides have moved on difference is NZ keep on winning mostly.
England improving at a great rate ,come 2015 they could be another great side.
BUT I don`t want as many England supporters do is have a good RWC then go back to 4 years of rubbish with the excuse of rebuilding.
NZ post 2004 not there best year were still good enough to beat England RWC holders twice,win there home matches in the 3Ns.
Or 2008 when they lost a complete squad of 20 plus players, Stilll won the
3Ns toured Europe unbeaten without conceding a try.
Come 2012 when the ritual dance is over,all the players have left for Europe orJapan they will the start the process over again .
Hopefully they will then go on to notch up another 3Ns and beat the RWC holders as they have post every RWC since 1991.
I don`t expect or care if the All Blacks win the RWC ,I DO care they stayIRB number one side as they have almost constantly since its inception.
Biltong bek,HI thank you for that incite you consider it is Down to coaching and selection. It is good to get the goods from a SA source I consider a friend pity David Leigh did`nt make it across.

I just think it's hilarious that an Englishman (you) states he's the greatest ever New Zealand fan.

Nottins fine ,thats my choice have a laugh at my expensecontributing omething instead of be ing a jingoistic wu

emack2 wrote:Nottins fine ,thats my choice have a laugh at my expensecontributing omething instead of be ing a jingoistic wu

What ?

Where am I being patriotic ?

Forget it,I wrote something deleted a passage had half written another then accidently hit the wrong button tried to unsuccessfully delete it.
Just have a laugh at my expense,support who you wish,i`ll do the same
my opinions are as valid as anybodys.
you don`tlike them don`t read them simple as that.

nottins wrote:I just think it's hilarious that an Englishman (you) states he's the greatest ever New Zealand fan.

Can't see why its funny. We have people here who are devout Man U and Chicago Bulls fans- and they've never been to England or the US- its mainly because we can neither play soccer nor basketball.

Stands to reason...

Taylorman wrote:

nottins wrote:I just think it's hilarious that an Englishman (you) states he's the greatest ever New Zealand fan.

Can't see why its funny. We have people here who are devout Man U and Chicago Bulls fans- and they've never been to England or the US- its mainly because we can neither play soccer nor basketball.

Stands to reason...

well stop sending us rubbish players and we might have a team worth supporting

and let the secret out...naah...
agree with the rubbish players though. Man we've sent some awful ones...

Also some very good ones,some of the greatest all Blacks of all time have served in NH.
Peter Whiting,Aron Mauger,A ndrew Merthens,Dan Carter,Chris Jack,Marty Holah,ChrisLaidlaw,Carl Haymen,Carlos Spencer,Josh Kronfeld,Jerry Collins,,Byron Kelleher.Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen,Dougie Howlett to name a few.

emack
You have a damn good memory for a guy of your age,i cant remeber "pole" Whiting playing in the NH....I thought he played in South Africa when hr was learning the Diamond precious stone industry.. But I will bow to your superior knowledge, put it this way I wouldn't bet against you...

Peter"Pole" Whiting,did indeed play in South Africa,finished his career in UK playing for Harlequins.

Yeah another ponies ab pole. Him beegee and haden in 76. didnt know he went o NH either
Famous for that tackle in the corner.my point is theyre never there when theyre at peak. For most its a retirement fund. The only to players we 'missed' would be evans and hayman. But not for long.
Graham thorne stayed in SA after his tour he loved it so much. Married a south african then came home with that ridiculous perm. Remenber that laurie?

taylorman
you're making me feel real old, but yes I remember the birds nest....At that time ponsonby had produced more All Blacks than any other rugby club in New Zealand, and didn't they remind you of it..........

I was at otahuhu as a teen then and yeah they were big then.
No training ground at the club either. Just that sand underneath.
Beegee was great though. Classy player and bloke. Pinup boy of the 70s. Ha ha. He and batty in 72-3 and 4. hard case..
remember colin farrell suburbs fullback. Shockers for abs lions 77. good for auckland though.

taylorman I played one year in the old 3rd grade, at oats and a year between 3 rd grade and Sen reserve
At the time i wasnt much out of 1st xv, and I had tickets on myself as a bit of an opensde.We had a trial game up at stuges park and i remeber i was playing at one stage against what was the "top Looseforward" combination,comprising Dave Hinton at No.8. Barry ashworth at blindside and a Scottish international at openside called Colin Wright if i remeber correctly. goes with out saying back down to 3rd grade .
Oh and my flatmate was a hooker, he ended up playing against ron urlich, so he didnt last long either....

emack2 wrote:Also some very good ones,some of the greatest all Blacks of all time have served in NH.
Peter Whiting,Aron Mauger,A ndrew Merthens,Dan Carter,Chris Jack,Marty Holah,ChrisLaidlaw,Carl Haymen,Carlos Spencer,Josh Kronfeld,Jerry Collins,,Byron Kelleher.Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen,Dougie Howlett to name a few.

Yeah but you very unfailrly dont let them play for England. I think its about time we reviewed the qualification laws to stop NEw Zealand hogging these players. Its ridiculous that our clubs, and our rugby, fund these guys pension pots because your Adidas sponsorship isnt big enough yet we are not allowed to reap the rewards of our better run Union (cough cough) on the international stage.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

emack2 wrote:Also some very good ones,some of the greatest all Blacks of all time have served in NH.
Peter Whiting,Aron Mauger,A ndrew Merthens,Dan Carter,Chris Jack,Marty Holah,ChrisLaidlaw,Carl Haymen,Carlos Spencer,Josh Kronfeld,Jerry Collins,,Byron Kelleher.Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen,Dougie Howlett to name a few.

Yeah but you very unfailrly dont let them play for England. I think its about time we reviewed the qualification laws to stop NEw Zealand hogging these players. Its ridiculous that our clubs, and our rugby, fund these guys pension pots because your Adidas sponsorship isnt big enough yet we are not allowed to reap the rewards of our better run Union (cough cough) on the international stage.

its an interesting & delicate question.

Back in the ameteur days the boks were a lot physically stronger than most other nations.. a lot of the players grew up in farms and were naturally heavy set.
Now that the professional era has begun the rest of the world has caught up and everyone is on a more level playing field.

The addition of pacific islanders has certainly benefitted both NZ & Aus (& come to think of it England too!). Not only do those guys love rugby but they also thrive on the physical aspect of the match....
Prior to the 90s the NZ team had at best 3 or 4 guys of pacific island or Maori descent... now its more like 10+.

I personally don't think its a racist view point to say that guys from those parts of the world are naturally well suited to the game... no more than saying that sprinters from the Carribbean or West Africa tend to be better also.

In terms of the racial aspect in SA.... there is undoubtedly pressure on the coach to choose ACI players (African, Coloured & Indian)... which is the official business term in SA now.
Given that at the moment SA produces a lot of particularly coloured talented backs (i.e. Habana, Pietersen, Jantjies, Jacobs, De Jongh, Basson, Aplon etc etc) it does reduce the chances of white players who specialise in those positions esp. 11,14 & 15.

It would certainly not go down well if the boks coach chose an all white XV.. even if they were the best players so often a coach may look to his options... Aplon is almost as good/just as good as lets say Terblanche at 15 so in that case Aplon is chosen.

SA have lost many white backs in particular to this issue. Stefan Terblanche should have had way more than 40 odd caps but given he was a wing/fullback he was unfortunate for the reasons above.
Joe Pietersen left WP last year for France, great young player and always chosen ahead of Aplon for instance... but he knew there was little, no chance he would be chosen so took the best decision for himself.

Come the tests in SA you won't see the boks pack shift backwards though... PDV may be a puppet be he's not a total fool. That bok pack on Saturday last was not even a B side... it was a 3rd XV at best.
When you see a team like the following to probably hit the field

J Du Plessis, B Du Plessis, BJ Botha, Bakkies, Matfield, Schalk, W. Alberts, Spies in the forwards &

Du Preez, James, Habana, JDV, Fioure, Pietersen & Frans. Steyn in the backs.

you'll realise how big the boks actually are & you won't see the boks physically take a beating from anyone... whether its good enough to beat Aus, Fra, NZ et al then thats another question.

FA, we do need a mindshift though from our national coaches. The last coach to play running rugby was Nick Mallet and he proved that we can play that game.

During his tenure we scored 152 tries in 38 tests

During Jake white's tenure we scored 195 tries in 54 matches

currently under PDV we have scored 105 tries in 41 tests.

We have gone from 4 tries per test, to 3.6 and now down to 2.56 tries per match.

When you compare that with what is happening in the Currie Cup it is a total reversal.

Its an interesting point Biltong....

What you are saying is true but at the same time Aus dropped from 3.7 to 2.6 & NZ dropped from 4.6 to 3.8... albeit the boks % drop has been greater.

The game is much more different now... coaches undertook tougher defence lines, very much out of the rugby league book and player conditioning improved.

Scoring tries is certainly becoming tougher.

Assuming PDV leaves at the end of the RWC (probably in disgrace) who would take over? 2 of the Franchises are lead by foreigners and Coetzee is still learning the game.
Many in SA would put him as fav as he is ACI but his stormers aren't exactly known for their try scoring.

Rassie Erasmus has to be the man... turned over the fortunes of both Free State & WP.... known as a good tactican too so surely he has to get the role. He would certainly bring the pride back.

Well if the rumours are true that Rassie is working with the Rustenburg 21 then it could be the indication that he may be the next coach, it will also enhance our chances at RWC.

Somehow I doubt that.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Nick Mallet return.

Who ever takes over has a big challenge ahead restoring Bok reputation

Fa0019.and Biltongbek .HI thank you when I wrote this article,I was genuinely interested in a take from a South African point of view.
I was not going to belabour the Racial charecistic thing,or the fact that Bok rugby was an Afrikaans dominated Sport pre1982.That politics ruled over sport,,in 1928,1949,1960 the sides were without Maoris.In 1928 that ment Jimmy Mill and George Nepia[Nepia was lost to union to become a union legend],in 1960 probably only Pat Walsh and possibly a second Hooker would have been picked. BUT 1949 the hey day of Maori Rugby it could have been half the side.
The tours of 1937 and 1949 the All Blacks ,scrum problem s adopting but not understanding the 3-4-1 scrum dynamics cost them dear.
The generosity and sportsmanship of Danie Craven and Bo Wintle in the middle of a tour was awesome.[Can`t see that happening today]
!937 tour was lost directly because of it,1949 because of Goal Kicking ,Bob Scott never mastered the Bok Ball,or playing conditions.1960 was so close a charged down kick by Martin Pelser the difference.
The All Blacks in amateur days had as many outdoors team members as the Boks and physicality was NEVER an issue between them.
Referees were biased on both sides ,NOT toward a team but a practice,SA refs were very hot on Scrum and lineout penalties,NZ on anything concerning the Ruck area.Both were notorious for it.Neutral referees plus covered Balls ,Sports medicine,and regular visits by players to each country in 3Ns and Super Rugby are big factors .After all you met about once every 6-7 years only one tour being lost by the home side 1937.
That side is considered THE greatest side EVER to tour NZ,in my opinion period 1992-1996 it was a period of readjustment the All Black side 1995-6 was something special.
The 1995 RWC win was one of the most eventful in SA history and I doubt any side other than SA would have wonit that year.Such was the tide of emotion the players were on.Forget the Food poisoning bit you deserved it Merthens tried a Drop missed,Stransky did`nt,[like England 2003 OZ tried it missed JW did`nt]
THE main reason the All Blacks have dominated World Rugby since 1996 is they travel well,only in 1998 or 2009 when they had a major raft of injuries has that been different,or 2002/3 when the great England side was rampant has that not been true.
Super Rugby and 3Ns right or wrong the formula was win at home ,pick up what points you can away.win one match versus Oz teams thats all she wrote.
That is a simplification but,come RWC the travel factor is taken out of it,any side can win.
There is really no reason why ANY team should target matches,teams,or play weakened sides or send weakened sides on tour.
It should`nt happen but it does in the name of the RWCor a Lions tour win.
Fitzy on the Sky match interview last weekend hinted Sanzar would look at things post RWC.
That there may not be a 4Ns in RWC year,this yearS15 injurie shave been horrendous some very bad.
PDV gave to seperate interviews apparently,on one he says the Boks let themselves down v NZ
On the other he was proud of them,then releases 28 players to Currie Cup
Rugby.
Port Elizabeth is the All Blacks least successful ground,if they get past OZ on Saturday ,injury free,with another wi under there belt without conceding bonus points.
The Bok matches will be key for 3Ns,and it could come down to the last game.
No ones fooled ,THE real Boks will be waiting in the RWCif not in the 3Ns,then we will see.
DON`T kid yourself about your scrum,it has been going backwards versus the All Blacks,OZ won`t be easy either.THE last decent prop for Scrummaging you fielded was Oz Du Randt,and Smit is considered a better Scrummager than Du Plesiss.
The folly of picking NH based players will catch up with you as it has in the past,the pace of the game is totally different in each Hemisphere.
The team you mention above are good even great players,but represent a style of play of a couple of years ago.
It may well be it is good enough to win another RWC,don`t people just love that World Champions bit till you reckon up the number of defeats since 2007.
World Champions or Best in the World now that`s a dilemma,there is only ONE World Championship All Black v BOK and as long as that stat says All Black leads HAllelujah.

"ONE World Championship All Black v BOK and as long as that stat says All Black leads HAllelujah."

Doubt the Aussies would agree.

Hi,Mr thunder All Blacks versus Wallabies p140 w 95 d 5 l 40 67.86%
since 1996 p 40 w 27 l 13 67.50%
All Blacks versus Boks p 82 w 46 d3 l 33 56.10%
since1996 p 40 w28 l 12 70.0 %
But these are`nt RWC titles so they don`t COUNT
BUT they`ll do me

emack2

I myself am not a saffa, however I was fortunate enough to move there a few years back, married a local afrikaner girl and am now raising what I hope will be the next Oz Du Randt.
I wouldn't say I'm a supporter of the boks; WP & the Stormers, absolutely but when I witnessed the lions tour first hand in 09 I knew my loyalty would always remain in the UK.

Anyhow, first off... don't write off the 6N teams.... I myself fancy IRE to upset AUS in the pools (they have the best pack in the NH and AUS always struggle against big aggressive sides). That would put Aus, NZ & SA in the same KO side.
Leinster would have certainly beaten the Reds in a HC vs. S15 champions playoff... they would have just muscled them of the park.

Back to the boks... the one thing that people can't take away from them is that they never lose their bottle.... never lose front. NZ often try and claim that they are the greatest test side in history but I'd beg to differ.... prior to reintroduction the boks not only had a winning record over NZ, they also won away series... something NZ only achieved in the early 90s when SA were still getting used to test competition.

Not only that they have the best RWC record of any side. No one cares if you put 50 points on Ireland in a friendly.... what matters is the big matches, the ones which really separate the men from the boys..... when you look at this.. the boks are unrivalled. If you think this is not so just look at the England football team... out of competition they are easily top 3 consistently.... they beat many recent cup winners in friendlies but then get turned over in the big tournaments... time after time after time.

Since re-introduction SA have had a number of problems which other teams wouldn't even dream facing. So much talent from school age upwards is lost because of positive discrimination... don't think this happens at test level only.... players like Moritz Botha never even had the chance to play Currie Cup and now is in the England squad.

Travel is also a massive problem. 2/3 of travel for NZ or Aus teams will be relatively close to home in both S15 & 3N.... for SA 2/3 of matches are half way across the globe... and don't think the miles don't add up... ever done business travel... after the 2nd time its a major drag and will add to player fatigue.

These are not excuses... SA have in some ways been caught cold after re-introduction and lost their way a bit... but it was the same for English football clubs in the late 80s.. it takes time to re-establish yourself.... in many ways the RWC95 was not expected.

If SA had chosen another coach.. one with actual credentials I think the last 4 years would have a little different... SA would have won at least 3 of the 4 3N since the RWC07 (I inc. this years 3N in the 4). The fact that SA have done so well is testament to the players.
I respect this current NZ side immensely.. they are a superb unit... but take away McCaw & Carter and I would think IRE, SA, AUS, FRA & ENG would fancy their chances.

Personally I think Aus may sneak a 3N & RWC double.... they have a superior backline to every team in world rugby and if they can sort out their front 5 then they should fear no one.
Whatever happens I think it will be a very competitive RWC.

I think the Bok v All Blacks thing pre-withdrawel was so close only two matches .For example the All Blacks back line could have been.
Vince Bevan or Doc Paewai Scrum half
Freddie Allen Flyhalf [Doc Paawai when Allen was injured he covered both
Peter Henderson, wing
Johnnie Smith second -five eight
Morrie Goddard centre
Brownie Cherrington wing
Bob Scott Full Back
K.D. Arnold doing the Hennie Muller bit
Still ifs ,buts.and maybes don`t count do they,if Vic Cavanagh had [as he should have]been coaching the forwards things might have been different.
The records sadly are there there,Take away Mc Caw and Carter,bring in Slade or Berquist and Todd or Thomson and you still have a formidable side to beat. Take out Genia and Cooper and Oz will struggle,IF and it is a very big if OZ win a t Eden Park then they may sneak the 3Ns but that is a might y IF.
RWC well thats another matter Australia or South Africa certainly but no NH side will win it.
BUT if NZ don`t win it and there pedigree is such I think that is doubtful would love to see France win it for a change they have had two losing finals.