England Vs Wales, the Build Up.

OK so the world cup build starts in earnest with the first warm up game this weekend. I know this fixture in particular is likely to be used for experimentation but it is still a test match and the result between England and Wales always matters.

The first question is to what extent are these teams going to experiment in this match? Consistency of selection is vital to building momentum going into a world cup season but the training squads are large and as Hartely said in an interview recently '45 doesnt go into 30'. A squad of 30 does limit options with specialist positions such as hooker, scrum half and fly half needing 3 players, there will need to be other players covering more than one position.

For example each team will need a prop to cover both sides and wingers who have the skills to cover full back. Are there going to be any left field selections? For england; Stevens and Tuilagi could force their way into the squad and I would expect both to start on saturday. Other big questions for England are; is Jonno going to stick with the limited combination of Hape and Tindall in the centre? And now players are back from injury; Moody, Lawes, Croft, Flutey and Sheridan are they going to walk back into the side? Whose the first choice Back row?

What about Wales? Inconsistent in the 6 nations and inconsistency leads to questions in selection. 2 years ago they would have been pretty sure of their first 15, but now? Like england I think wales have problems in the centres and as a result struggle to find a settled strategy in attack. England do have a strategy with the 2 big centres but its limited. How do you wales fans think Gatland will tackle the sides deficiencies in attack? Lyidate and warburton have improved everytime I've seen wales but who will play no. 8? Where will james hook play? and what about full back and scrum half?

Many questions and hopefully there will be some answers on saturday.

matt,

I am trying not to get too excited until I see what side Gatland picks as I think that will have a big outcome on the result.

I agree that he has to experiment with a few combos but I was at HQ in 07 when Jenkins pick Will James at 2nd row and AWJ at 6 and well as they say the rest is history.

I think Johnson will stick with Hape and Tindall at centre. England's worst performance in the 6N, against Ireland, was when Tindall was out injured. And it wasn't the centre partnership that lost us that game – it was the pack.

He probably sees the partnership as a safe option. England have played very well with the two of them on the pitch, even if they've never really seemed to excel as individuals.

Personally I'd like to see something different. (Allen-Tindall) maybe. I think the lack of someone who can spread the ball at 12 or 13 puts a lot of pressure on Flood and when teams can get to him it ruins England's gameplan.

I was at Twickenham for the Wales 07 game and it was awful. It just wasn't a contest at all, boring to watch.

Does anyone know when the teams are due to be announced?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Does anyone know when the teams are due to be announced?

Welsh squad is announced Thursday. Dunno aboiut the Saes.

I'm worried about Matthew Rees's injury.

It opens the door for Huw Bennett - who couldn't throw a ball through it.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:It opens the door for Huw Bennett - who couldn't throw a ball through it.

Lp,

He can't hit the proverbial with a banjo so it would need to be a double door at least.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:It opens the door for Huw Bennett - who couldn't throw a ball through it.

Lp,

He can't hit the proverbial with a banjo so it would need to be a double door at least.

I have a feeling Burns will be in ahead of Bennett.

Looks like Rees is out for sure, and second choice Hibbard is definitely out, possibly for the world cup too. England have their first two choices available, though Lawes is possibly out in the second row, which might give us a bit of a break...

Not looking forward to this game much at the moment.

We'll still should have two world class props in our front row (though Geth hasnt palyed in aaages) two on form flankers and hopefully Delve or Faletau at 8.

Hardly doom and gloom

Possible Line ups ?

1. Alex Cobiesero - Paul James

2. Dylan Hartley - Lloyd Burns

3. Dan Cole - Adam Jones

4. Tom Palmer - AW Jones

5. Louis Deacon - Bradley Davies

6. Tom Croft - Dan Lydiate

7. Lewis Moody - Sam Warburton

8. Nick Easter - Gareth Delve

9. Ben Youngs - Mike Phillips

10. Toby Flood - Steven Jones

11. Chris Ashton - Shane Williams

12. Shontayne Hape - Gavin Henson

13. Mike Tindall - Jon Davies

14. Mark Cueto - Leigh Halfpenny

15. Ben Foden - Lee Byrne

Gatland has promised he would play a strong team.

I am hoping for

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Umm Lloyd Burns
3. Craig Mitchell
4. Bradley Davies
5. Ryan Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Lloyd Williams
10. James Hook
11. Shane Williams
12. Gavin Henson (it will happen)
13. Jamie Roberts
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15. Morgon Stoddart

16. Adam Jones
17. Umm Ken Owens?
18. Alun Wyn Jones
19. Gareth Delve
20. Tavis Knoyle
21. Jonathon Davies
22. Stephen Jones

It is quite exciting that I dont think either the Welsh or the English fans know who will be in the teams. England may shake up post loosing to ireland and a few notable players returning. Wales still want to try out a few young or returning to fitness guys.

Wales could pull off another famous win at HQ on Sat. WG has done the right thing by taking the players out the country, out the media spotlight to get some hard work done on fitness and tactics. Maybe another classic in the making???

I don’t think the England team is going to be particularly experimental. As I’ve said elsewhere, England will not want to lose at home to Wales; I feel there will be more experimentation on the bench and in the away fixture.

Ben Youngs is apparently out for two weeks after a tweak to his knee, so should miss both games against Wales and will probably be unlikely to start against Ireland. It’s a good thing that Danny Care isn’t quite as bad as some people will have you believe.

Silly season for speculation over the squad is starting. I’ve read in some news articles (Not that I would say they are 100% reliable) that there are rumours out of the camp that Tim Payne, James Simpson-Daniel, Charlie Hodgson, David Strettle, Ugo Monye, Riki Flutey, Lewis Moody and Thomas Waldrom are set to be axed.

Those same reports have Manu Tuilagi on the plane alongside DJ Shape, Mike Tindall and Matt Banahan (as a centre).

I’ll be waiting to see how accurate the reports are, but I can’t see both Hodgson and Flutey being dropped, there needs to be a third player capable of covering flyhalf.

How do you know Rees is def out - I haven't heard anything else on this (not saying much), and can't find anything on the BBC or Western Fail websites and there's nothign on there.

If he is out I'll get a lot more pessimistic as Hibbert won't be there and I can't see him trusting a rookie (burns) against the Saes, even if he is lightyears better than Bennett - which then means we won't win any lineouts and our whole forwards play will be affected.

wales606 wrote:Gatland has promised he would play a strong team.

I am hoping for

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Umm Lloyd Burns
3. Craig Mitchell
4. Bradley Davies
5. Ryan Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Lloyd Williams
10. James Hook
11. Shane Williams
12. Gavin Henson (it will happen)
13. Jamie Roberts
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15. Morgon Stoddart

16. Adam Jones
17. Umm Ken Owens?
18. Alun Wyn Jones
19. Gareth Delve
20. Tavis Knoyle
21. Jonathon Davies
22. Stephen Jones

606,

If he goes with Burns and Ownes in any order I will be happy as it means Bennetts not there (but we know he will be).

Likewise if he goes for Toby I will be happy but would pick Delve there myself.

I would swap the starters and bench around a bit but thats pretty much the 22 I would pick

I like that team - and like it's attacking intent - my only worries is if there is a weakness at 9 and 10 defensively that England would probably target.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I like that team - and like it's attacking intent - my only worries is if there is a weakness at 9 and 10 defensively that England would probably target.

I'd say the same for England if Wilkinson isnt playing

munkian wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I like that team - and like it's attacking intent - my only worries is if there is a weakness at 9 and 10 defensively that England would probably target.

I'd say the same for England if Wilkinson isnt playing

There aren't many 10's in the world that would not be targeted as defensive frailties, I haven't seen much of Lloyd but as far as 10's go Hook isn't bad he is not a Cooper but no Wilkinson either but who is? I would also say the same about Flood and Youngs.

Whoever we pick in the back row, I want us to get at Toby Flood. We gave him an easy ride in Cardiff in the Six Nations.

See I'd be tempted to have Phillips at 9 - hes a very physical player, especially for a Scrum Half - he might help shut down the England 9/10

I have a feeling England will be better prepared for this game; it didn't look as though the Welsh training camps in Poland had the same emphasis on team rugby (as opposed to individual skills) as England seem to have been doing. Also, I'm not convinced that our problems with creating anything in the backs will have disappeared (Howlers is still there, Phillips will still be there). England's squad looks strong, not spectacularly so, but I think they'll be well-organised, strong in the set-piece and very physical, and I fear that is going to be too much for us.

I can take a loss at Twickers if we win at home. I dont see the pre WC thumping we had in 07 though

u haven't seen the team yet munkian - Gatland could well pick Bennett, R Jones (at 8) Williams (at 7), Phillips, Henson and a few other head scratchers and then we could well be galloping up diahorrea avenue without any reins!

Anyone have a feeling that Wales will feild as physical a side as possible, and England will feild the most pacey/skillful side they can. Meaning that neither team will really gain much from the match.

munkian wrote:See I'd be tempted to have Phillips at 9 - hes a very physical player, especially for a Scrum Half - he might help shut down the England 9/10

They said the same about Bergumasco...

Manu's Boxing Coach - I'm sorry but Hooks defence is not ok, it's quite bad especially if the English aim Tindall to run down the 9/10 channel or put a flanker to stand as first reciever, like they did with Worseley a few seasons ago.

And as Bluenote says England will be prepared and with a mostly settled team and know most of the Welsh players very well, they will target our weaknesses.

I am worried about the England back row targeting our 9 and 10, as Williams isn't the biggest most physical guy ever and neither is Hook - though our backrow may be able to nullify them

I don't know what to expect from England. I think Martin Johnson's side is more settled, but I don't kno if that'll mean he'll experiment more in his team selection or less.

I wouldn't want to pick Phillips as he would nullify any attacking gains we could get out of the backline.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:u haven't seen the team yet munkian - Gatland could well pick Bennett, R Jones (at 8) Williams (at 7), Phillips, Henson and a few other head scratchers and then we could well be galloping up diahorrea avenue without any reins!

there is no reason he would pick those players though is there? Bennett maybe as he is the most experienced Hooker available if Rees isn't fit, but Williams, Phillips and R jones will only play if they are the best in their position.

The Henson experiment i presume will continue, lets hope it bears fruition too as if he is in form he would solve a shed load of problems.

I applaud your faith in Gatland Maesteg - but Gatland has picked players that aren't the best in their position numerous times and it's left me without much faith unfortunately.

(not that Jones is a bad player)

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I don't know what to expect from England. I think Martin Johnson's side is more settled, but I don't kno if that'll mean he'll experiment more in his team selection or less.

settled to a degree but reading what england fans say they aren't happy/sure about who should be in a variety of combinations, so to a degree they aren't in a much different position to Wales.

Their advantage comes in having had a more successful 12 months leading up to the tournament, but even that can be seen in two very different lights.

wales606 wrote:Gatland has promised he would play a strong team.

I am hoping for

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Umm Lloyd Burns
3. Craig Mitchell
4. Bradley Davies
5. Ryan Jones
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Lloyd Williams
10. James Hook
11. Shane Williams
12. Gavin Henson (it will happen)
13. Jamie Roberts
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15. Morgon Stoddart

16. Adam Jones
17. Umm Ken Owens?
18. Alun Wyn Jones
19. Gareth Delve
20. Tavis Knoyle
21. Jonathon Davies
22. Stephen Jones

I think Gatlands' cards will be shown (unless he wants to hide some injuries) and he will pick his form & strongest 22 so unless something has dramatically has improved in their form in the last month you can knock the idea that he'd pick a Phillips/Hook combo or pick Henson at all. England will pick Flood with Young or Care and with Moody in at 7 Hook will have no time on the ball, hence his threat will be nullified

Based on the last two Welsh games performances and including injuries

1. Jenkins
2. Burns
3. Jones
4. Davies
5. R Jones (Capt)
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Delve

9. Knoyle
10. Jones

12. Williams
13. Davies

11. Williams
14. Halfpenny
15. Stoddart

16. James
17. Owen (havent much choice now)
18. Charteris
19. Turnbull
20. Faletau
21. L Williams
22. Hook

I'd like to see North in there somewhere as he's a bit of an animal

There seem to be injury worries regarding Delve, Halfpenny, Rees, and Hibbard, all potentially very important players for us.
Leaving those out, I'd pick, for Twickers:

Geth, Owens, Adam J, Bradley D, AWJ, Lydiate, Warbs, Faletau, Williams, Hook, Roberts, JD2, North, Shane, Byrne; bench Paul James, Burns, Ryan, Turnbull, Knoyle, Henson, Priestland

FHF I didn't know North was made of Pepperoni!

I disagree I think as we haven't got settled cominations all over the team I think Gatland will use these games for players to find their form - definately Henson as he needs game time, so too do A Jones and G Jenkins, and I reckon he'll give Phillips game time to find form, also he'll def (oops sorry IMO not definately) play Hook at 10 at some point to give him exposure.

I honestly can't see S Williams getting any game time unless Henson flops majorily (except for a few mins here and there off the bench).

I hope he plays Delve quite a lot, but am not convinced he will

Smirnoff

Mate he won't do a Jenkins and start experimenting, he's had a month to know who his best players are............... saying that this is Gatland!!, and he does love Henson and Hook.

The word is Turnbull will get some airtime, as will young Williams at 9 if you want to listen to the Telegraph article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8673690/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Gavin-Henson-to-get-chance-to-impress-for-Wales-against-England.html

So you could well be right mate

Henson will get as much gametime as he needs. Gatland sees him as an integral ppart of the plan so IF he has shown up well in training then I expect him to start at least 2 of the 3 games

munkian wrote:See I'd be tempted to have Phillips at 9 - hes a very physical player, especially for a Scrum Half

Not that old chestnut again!!!

FHF re: telegraph story - didn't realise Rhys Williams was in the squad, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of Lloyd Williams...

Obviously a typo but there doesn't seem much meat on that story (but still a lot more meat than any Western Fail story)

BATH_BTGOG wrote:

munkian wrote:See I'd be tempted to have Phillips at 9 - hes a very physical player, especially for a Scrum Half - he might help shut down the England 9/10

Not that old chestnut again!!!

Ireland shut down your 9 and 10 and stomped you......

munkian wrote:

BATH_BTGOG wrote:

munkian wrote:See I'd be tempted to have Phillips at 9 - hes a very physical player, especially for a Scrum Half - he might help shut down the England 9/10

Not that old chestnut again!!!

Ireland shut down your 9 and 10 and stomped you......

Is that you Welsh boy's coat tailing the Irish yet again?

Cumbrian wrote:

munkian wrote:

BATH_BTGOG wrote:

munkian wrote:See I'd be tempted to have Phillips at 9 - hes a very physical player, especially for a Scrum Half - he might help shut down the England 9/10

Not that old chestnut again!!!

Ireland shut down your 9 and 10 and stomped you......

Is that you Welsh boy's coat tailing the Irish yet again?

Not at all, we've beaten you plenty more times than Ireland have

What was the last result?

Cumbrian wrote:What was the last result?

A blip

For the second year in a row?

munkian wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:What was the last result?

A blip

And the result before that?

Keep up Hammy son.

Cumbrian wrote:For the second year in a row?

And the results the two years before that ?

munkian wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:For the second year in a row?

And the results the two years before that ?

Ancient history innit? You Welsh and your memories, garn write a fruity aria about it or summat.