A Poor Man's Spencer

A few weeks ago on a thread celebrating the emergence of the greatest first five eighths of all time in the form of Quade Cooper I was roundly criticised for calling him a "Poor Man's Carlos Spencer".

His performance tonight highlights my point exactly.

An intercept pass in mid-field? check.
Fear of tackling? check.
Crazy loose flick pass behind his own goal line? check.
Picking a fight with the opposition captain? check.
Aimless kicking when flustered and under pressure? check.
Almost redeeming a poor performance by setting up a couple of tries with remarkable vision and perfect execution? check.

Australia are in for a world of pain if the persist.

So why is a poor man's version?

He is not as good as many have claimed. Not an all rounder like Carter. Exciting player but wouldnt rely on him. He will be found out come WC. Id prefer Sexton in my team any day.

Dear Mr MBTOG,

First and foremost, may I convey my great appreciation that you have taken the time from your undoubtably precious weekend to do me the honour not only of reading my humble post, but also to have gone to the great length of contributing by way of a reply.

I'm not ashamed to say that on reading your post I first felt a little foolish. For after all the point you make is a very valid one indeed. Just why is Cooper a "poor man's spencer" as I claim in my initial correspondence when I have gone to such great lengths to point out the similarities between the two, rather than juxtapose the supposed difference.

On greater reflection into the matter however I have concluded that there may still be some validity in my argument on the following basis. I trust that you will take the time also to consider my reasoning and alert me to inaccuracies either in the facts I present, or the logic I have applied to arrive at my conclusion.

Firstly, although at the beginning of a distinctly promising career, I believe that Carlos Spencer had gone some way to establishing himself as the premier first five eighths in all of New Zealand and was, by his presence keeping other players held in high regard from attaining their undoubted objective of representing their country. I contrast this with Australia who suffering at the hands of fickle nature of form and through diabolical injury have a lesser selection of riches to examine.

Secondly, Mr Spencer presided in the All Black uniform whilst New Zealand enjoyed the enviable pleasure of topping the world rankings, whilst Mr Cooper by contrast can claim honour only through representing the worlds second best team according to the complex mathematical ranking system devised by the global governing body.

Thirdly, and finally Mr Spencer's achievements reflect that whilst the style of the two are comparable that the former executed a slightly greater arsenal of skills to the end of ensuring victory for his team.

It is this final point, that on careful consideration I believe clinches, in my mind at least the superiority of Mr Spencer and validates my initial claim that Mr Cooper is indeed a poor man's Mr Spencer.

Good day to you sir,

The Grey Ghost.

post script addendum : May you cherish and enjoy all experiences relating to the sport from which we all derive so much pleasure, and I trust that fairness and good fortune go with the team that you support.

Every one should rest easy on their wisdom then. He is no threat, and never will be.

GreyGhost,I think his point is that Cooper is exactly the same as Spencer. He had an off night. Like Spencer he is just as likely to have an off night as he is to have a brilliant one. Think he offers a bit more consistency than Spencer.

Yeah, I agree to be honest. That said, I think he is by far the best option the Wallabies have at outhalf and as much as he can blow hot and cold there is no 10 available to them that would further strengthen the team should Cooper be replaced. It's a shame about Berrick Barnes actually, I thought he was going to be the business.

Wallabies fans; keep the faith!

I'm calm notch. I doubt the boy is done yet.

Invisible kiwis. For some reason I have a sense of deja vu.

Carter was better today, as were the AB's.
Game over. No contest.
Doesnt mean Oz wont be back as for periods they showed they're a class team.
Tonight went exactly as Id thought, eerily so to be honest but Oz showed enough to be competitive next time.
Just not sure Eden Park is the place they'll do it.
O'Connors missed kicks wont go down well...youth...pressure etc...

Good golly GreyGhost: Are you going for a Pulitzer Prize with that purple passage?

Just trying to bring a higher level of civility to the forums after our strict behaviour warnings.

I overshot, perhaps.

He certainly had a poor game... he was always trying to do something special rather than wait for the right time... its inexperience in big test matches thats all.

In terms of a poor Carlos Spencer... he's only 22 so I would give him a break. Sure he has a bit of an arrogant streak, but thats what makes him so great to watch when he has decent ball from his pack and he's on form.

It does look however that NZ had a specific game plan for combating Cooper.. and like Eng in the AI, it was very effective.... do Aus have a plan B if 60mins into a RWCSF the same scenario occurs?

No worries Ghost: It was an entertaining read. (Rather err on the side of civility I say)

TheGreyGhost wrote:Dear Mr MBTOG,

First and foremost, may I convey my great appreciation that you have taken the time from your undoubtably precious weekend to do me the honour not only of reading my humble post, but also to have gone to the great length of contributing by way of a reply.

I'm not ashamed to say that on reading your post I first felt a little foolish. For after all the point you make is a very valid one indeed. Just why is Cooper a "poor man's spencer" as I claim in my initial correspondence when I have gone to such great lengths to point out the similarities between the two, rather than juxtapose the supposed difference.

On greater reflection into the matter however I have concluded that there may still be some validity in my argument on the following basis. I trust that you will take the time also to consider my reasoning and alert me to inaccuracies either in the facts I present, or the logic I have applied to arrive at my conclusion.

Firstly, although at the beginning of a distinctly promising career, I believe that Carlos Spencer had gone some way to establishing himself as the premier first five eighths in all of New Zealand and was, by his presence keeping other players held in high regard from attaining their undoubted objective of representing their country. I contrast this with Australia who suffering at the hands of fickle nature of form and through diabolical injury have a lesser selection of riches to examine.

Secondly, Mr Spencer presided in the All Black uniform whilst New Zealand enjoyed the enviable pleasure of topping the world rankings, whilst Mr Cooper by contrast can claim honour only through representing the worlds second best team according to the complex mathematical ranking system devised by the global governing body.

Thirdly, and finally Mr Spencer's achievements reflect that whilst the style of the two are comparable that the former executed a slightly greater arsenal of skills to the end of ensuring victory for his team.

It is this final point, that on careful consideration I believe clinches, in my mind at least the superiority of Mr Spencer and validates my initial claim that Mr Cooper is indeed a poor man's Mr Spencer.

Good day to you sir,

The Grey Ghost.

post script addendum : May you cherish and enjoy all experiences relating to the sport from which we all derive so much pleasure, and I trust that fairness and good fortune go with the team that you support.

Did this answer your question Munsty?

He's a talented player and will win more games than he loses playing for Australia, but he isn't Dan Carter, though at only 23 there is a lot of room for improvement, and clearly will get better as he gets more seasoned. He has only had 15 caps or so, so is still a rookie really.

Well at least he's proved he's Spencer like- has his ups and downs indeed, prone to errors under pressure etc.

If thats the case he's now at a crossroads- said all along if the AB's close down time and space around him, this is what will happen.

Now he's as much a liability as a match winner for Oz for the big occasions.

Food for thought. ABs have gotta be pretty confident playing him next time around, and maybe he wont be so...

Taylorman, do you not think that now that the way has been shown to negate him, he might just consider to move to rugby league after the world cup, or as soon as his contracts run out?

Taylorman wrote:If thats the case he's now at a crossroads- said all along if the AB's close down time and space around him, this is what will happen.

Blydi All Blacks messing with the laws of physics now! When will the madness end!!!

Hi Biltong,
I dont think Cooper would make it in League due to his defence. Easier to get him one on one and he doesnt really like the physical game nor is he built for it.

Carpe Diem wrote:

Taylorman wrote:If thats the case he's now at a crossroads- said all along if the AB's close down time and space around him, this is what will happen.

Blydi All Blacks messing with the laws of physics now! When will the madness end!!!

To think that Europe blew 100 million Euros on the large hadron collider when Graham Henry could've told them that all you needed was "8 guys playing together like a squash team" to produce the same effect. Although to be honest the lay-mans explanations of the LHC make more sense to me than this 8 man squash that GH has formed a fondness for.

biltongbek wrote:Taylorman, do you not think that now that the way has been shown to negate him, he might just consider to move to rugby league after the world cup, or as soon as his contracts run out?

You think he's going to retire from rugby because he had a bad night on Saturday??

Apart from that he is a different player behind a committed forward pack moving forward over the gain line - like any running No. 10.

Rob, does he not come from rugby League, were there not rumours in the recent past that he may sign a contract somewhere to play League?

I think the post match media conference was instructive. Good old Rocky, the only person in world rugby who cannot be dropped, blamed the "attack" - another Rocky pearler coming from the biggest and slowest passenger on the field.

And you've got Cooper saying it's pretty hard to do much when you're going backwards all night (ergo, the forwards didn't front up).

Both were right.

Cooper's brilliance and the ego that goes with it (anyone suggesting he is garbage is suffering from post match euphoria IMO), needs to be better melded into the team and that comes down to his coaches. He doesn't seem to have any confidence in his mid field and it was clear that when the going was tough he thought he had to bring off the miracle play as the method to get go forward. He needs to show more patience, use the players around him better and play more in the team interests. Deans has given him too much latitude - which is fine if the forwards are breaching the gain line. It worked with the Reds when their pack got a lot of ball and go forward with their backrow especially. Alas, not one of them can get into the W team. But when it is tough he has to knuckle down and do the hard yards and if that means hitting the line for a while and then passing the ball to 12 all night then so be it. He is such an individualist though no doubt he is hard to coach. I saw a training clip on the Gold Coast with Deans talking to Cooper about something - you could just tell by Cooper's demeanour that he wasn't interested in a thing he was saying.

biltongbek wrote:Rob, does he not come from rugby League, were there not rumours in the recent past that he may sign a contract somewhere to play League?

There were, and I think he'll make the switch at some point. But I don't think his motivation to switch would be because he has allegedly been "worked out" by other sides. A lot of 10s would have trouble behind a pack who came up against the AB 8 in the first half on Sat.

At this point he is signed for 2012 Biltong, but he only does 12 month contracts so perhaps he will leave after that. Possibly depends on what sort of media deal the NRL is able sign for themselves.

Well i for one thinks he is/will be good for Wallabies. So his flip pass was lucky not to have led to points against us, but least there is excitment when he playes. Much l;ike the whole Wallabies back line, often on a losing side and seems to play some foolish styles, but when it works and clicks it is so much more exciting than other side's plays. Well worth watching when most of the time we'll be on the back foot, for the one or two moments of magic that makes watching 78 minutes of us being beaten worth the while.

I agree Oz. We must share that horrendous optimism trait that so upsets people.

Maybe just blinkered boomer!!! I don't recall that much bad play by the Wallabies last match, just some brill backline moves that were breathtaking!!!

Hmm but I think the other side scored more points than us though huh?? Drat!! LOL!

Oh, we may need to get a decent kicker at some stage f we really are actually hoping to win some tests!!

Yeah, I was hoping that James had come further than it appears he has. It's amazing to me that we can have five kickers that all sit around 70% or so, but none that can push on to that next level. The test on Sat was done regardless of that, but it hurts us too often.

Didn't Braam van straaten Help last year, I am sure if I remember correctly Oz's kicking was better last year.

I think it may have looked better last year cause we had kickers miss vital kicks in a match, but only A vital kick in the match and that was what was remembered. One kick per match.

But last Saturday he missed three, so it looked a lot worse than what is usually, quite a poor part of the Wallabies game, though at the time he missed them was not that important, but at the end could have mounted up and made a different game.

We all talk about Cooper but i can't see how Elsom stays captain week in week out! He's turning in to the Australian version of Borthwick. Higginbotham should be in the side (should have already started these last two games) and the captain armband should be passed along.

Elsom should have to play his way back in tot he team, maybe with out the pressure of captaincy he can refind his electric form.

Would people look at bring A Fianga in to support Cooper a bit more as he knows him so well?

Bram is still involved Biltong, but geography might be limiting it's value. My understanding is that they are usually hooked up via technology rather than in person.

I'm quite loyal to Rocky Yappy, so perhaps willingly see the good amongst the bad. There is a pretty large groundswell here to take the (C) and his spot away from him, so people may be right.

Loyalty aside, I'm apprehensive about changing captaincy this late in day as I imagine the Wallaby captaincy isn't the lightest burden to carry, and do we risk f%#£€ up someone else's form at exactly the wrong time? RobBing Peter to pay Paul. All the best candidates are very young, or in horwills case, still returning to the scene. I would have been ok with Sharpe, but there now seems to be question marks over his role. if people are right though, we probably need to take the risk. It won't be the only one we are taking.

Carpe Diem wrote:

Taylorman wrote:If thats the case he's now at a crossroads- said all along if the AB's close down time and space around him, this is what will happen.

Blydi All Blacks messing with the laws of physics now! When will the madness end!!!

Nope...not messing with them...more just applying them...

Like Spencer, Cooper did some low percentage stuff under pressure- including throwing the ball to no one behind his line- nothing huge in that but a sign of what that type of player can do under pressure- more time- less risk, less time- more risk kind of thing.

Now he'll probably do ok in SA as I dont think theyre fast or fit enough to lock him in and I think they'll win in Brisbane (Reds home, revenge, AB's have 3N in the cabinet kind of win like last years), and perhaps a few fluffy wins in WCup pool play.

But at some point he'll have to come back to Eden back to face the music and he'll need to have better team support by then to operate. Not saying he wont, but things arent going to be as rosy as he perhaps thought with all the highs hes had so far. How he handles it will be interesting.

I think people are being too hard on Deans, Cooper and Australia.
The Wallabies are the number 2 team in the world.
They have lost some games they shouldn't have lost recently but have had some very good games too.
3/2 in tries the other day. How many teams have done better than that against NZ (an NZ playing a focussed game) in the last couple of years?