The 80 Minute Game

Nothing good happens in injury time. At least not from an Irish point of view. Yesterday's game against Scotland reinforced the glaring mental frailty of the Irish psyche. Until this is addressed, rather than debating whether or not we can beat Australia and South Africa, the real question should be whether we can avoid a "surprise" defeat against the Italians.

A rugby game lasts EIGHTY minutes. Not 75 or 77 or 79 minutes. Try telling that to this crop of players. In reality this all started in Lens 12 years ago. But without having to delve back into the archives we'll keep it to say 2007 onward.

How many Irish people remember Vincent Clerc's last minute try in Croke Park? Or in 2008 New Zealand scoring in the last minute to beat Munster? An often over looked one is our Grandslam decider in 2009. After scoring near the death we give Wales a penalty straight in front of the posts which Stephen Jones misses. Make no mistake, 2009 showed us our inability to hold a lead. Last year we tossed away a lead in the dying minutes to the Scots in our final ever Croke Park match and this year in the 6 Nations we very nearly did the same.

Yesterdays inability to close out the game did not surprise me. It was just another game to add to our collection. Yesterday we were beaten by a side with ZERO creativity in the backline. Scotland do not "create" moves in the backline. They have a few strong runners like Lamont and Ansboro who thrive on being on the front foot. With the Irish team having one eye on the Aussies, Italy can be neglected.

A similar team to the Scots; no creativity in the backline, a few good runners in the backs, a strong backrow and solid scrum. They will take heart from their victory over France and their display against this inconsistent Irish team. Make no mistake, England game aside - we go forward in hope rather than expectation. Anyway, onto next week, where no doubt we will once again come away the plucky losers.

With congratulations and respect to Asbo and the Scottish National Rugby Team. A condescending pat on the back to Ireland for another great 77 minute display.

South africa is guilty of that often, even in 2009 during the British and Irish Lions tour we hade leads that dissipated, during the Tri Nations of 2009 we led most games comfortably and the all Blacks almost caught up with us a few times.

Last year, the same thing happened against OZ, we led, had to run down the clock, went over the ball at a ruck, gave away a penalty and lost the game in the last minute.

So don't feel alone.

Often we will give away free tries or penalties either side of halftime.

I think it is just focus and concentration that either switches off to early or is switched on too late.

A bit bleak. I'm still quite optimistic regarding next week.

I was frustrated we defended so well for 76 minutes and then made a horlix of defending that one. Not just McFadden, but the back three as well. And Trimbles covering was ignoble.

All I'll say, Stag, is at least they lasted 77 minutes

Times were when irish teams could only play 60 minutes of a game ...

But seriously, you do have a point and it is very frustrating as a supporter. One can take some positives from this game; I was very surprised how nervous I was before this game - memories of Geordan Murphy in 2003 loomed large (off topic, but I am so sorry for Stoddart), so no injuries = a positive.

Yes it was a scrappy game. I was very disappointed by the 2 centres, no matter how much some supporters big them up. I think Jones did his chances of a ticket to NZ no favours, which also disappointed me. I could go on, but what's the point?

It was horrible rugby, but as a Munster supporter, I really enjoyed the last twenty minutes of the HEC Final in 2008 when they shoved the ball up their jerseys and didn't give Toulouse a look in. As I say - not pretty, but effective in WINNING.

I was also very disappointed by the defence allowing that try at the end. No excuses it should have been stopped. Sexton was FURIOUS - I daresay he will have had a few choice words with some of his team mates after the game.

dog to walk

Stag I thought that team did fantastic stag. Most of those guys had hardly played together so to defend as cohesively for 76 minutes was an outstanding effort. If it wasn't for an individual error by McFadden and a bit of obstruction on Wallace we'd have won the game.

Kidney got the balance a bit wrong with the selection and the lack of ball carriers was notable. That said the handling and interplay was of a high standard.

Remember the 1st choice XV just scraped past Scotland in the 6N so that was an excellent effort by an experimental side.

if you want to talk about playing for 80 minutes look no further than Wales V Scotland 2010. I still wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night screaming for Blair to kick the restart out and take the draw...

I didn't see the game but how much does the different training schedules come in to it?

In the England Wales game England tired badly towards the end and Haskell commented afterwards that they'd been doing hard training till a few days before the match so had expected to - might it be something similar for Ireland? They lost it at the end because they weren't as fit as the Scots and struggled to keep up?

No, not a question of fitness. The players look fitter than they ever have been, and they say so themselves.

snoopster wrote:I didn't see the game but how much does the different training schedules come in to it?

No I don't think it did at all. Ireland looked fresh enough at the end despite doing a lot of defending. It was a simple individual error which led to the scots try in a situation that wasn't that threatening. Ireland just struggled to keep possession throughout due to a lack of ball carriers. The wholesale substitutions on 60min may have disrupted Ireland a bit but definitely tiredness didn't appear to be an issue in what was a decent game.

No complaints on the result but the Scots should be a bit concerned at how they struggled to score despite having a huge amount of posession. I wonder will they be concerned that they only have one more warm up game to blow the cobwebs away whereas Ireland have 4?

Notch wrote:No, not a question of fitness. The players look fitter than they ever have been, and they say so themselves.

Oh? Fair enough. I'm surprised if they're at peak fitness now though, I would have assumed they'd be aiming to hit the peak of their fitness in two months time as I understand the other NH teams are doing.

snoopster wrote:

Notch wrote:No, not a question of fitness. The players look fitter than they ever have been, and they say so themselves.

Oh? Fair enough. I'm surprised if they're at peak fitness now though, I would have assumed they'd be aiming to hit the peak of their fitness in two months time as I understand the other NH teams are doing.

Well in two months time the WC will be over so hopefully the other sides aren't that far behind. I'm sure the Irish side aren't at their peak yet but they look incredibly fit. It seems the emphasis with a lot of the sides now seems to be fitness rather than bulk. Apparantly a lot of the Irish players are lighter than in the 6N.

I don't know whether they are at their peak, hut from this point in most of the training will be rugby focused not fitness focused. Just keeping them ticking over. It was a positional error that lead to the linebreak. An error in timing of the shooter from 13, and then the covering players caught out of position.

roddersm wrote:

snoopster wrote:I didn't see the game but how much does the different training schedules come in to it?

No I don't think it did at all. Ireland looked fresh enough at the end despite doing a lot of defending. It was a simple individual error which led to the scots try in a situation that wasn't that threatening. Ireland just struggled to keep possession throughout due to a lack of ball carriers. The wholesale substitutions on 60min may have disrupted Ireland a bit but definitely tiredness didn't appear to be an issue in what was a decent game.

No complaints on the result but the Scots should be a bit concerned at how they struggled to score despite having a huge amount of posession. I wonder will they be concerned that they only have one more warm up game to blow the cobwebs away whereas Ireland have 4?

Rodders,

Scotland certainly should have done better against an Irish B side, I agree. But, they have a smaller player-pool and less depth than us and cannot run the risk of losing key players, even before the WC starts. So, Robinson has looked at his 1st two WC games vs Romania and Georgia(who will be physically hard) - to to get them ready for Argentina. Added to the 2 already planned, that makes 4. Smart move, considering his resources I think

Although I'm delighted to read an original thread about something a bit different, given the often endlessly recycled, over-familiar topics that keep cropping up, I'm going to have to call your bluff on this one, Stag.

Ulster won three games last season with the last kick of the game, if I recall correctly. And they weren't all taken by Pienaar - the most important, high pressure one, the one that effectively put us into the knock-out stages of the HEC, was iHumph. Whereas in previous seasons you would most definitely have had a point, in 2010-2011 Ulster had ice in their veins.

If you look at Scotland's try, near the end on first glimpse it looks like a real belter.

But watch it again and it's a different story. Most of the passes are laboured across the field, loopy and slow. All but the last pass required the recipient to either pause, or jump or otherwise take the foot off the gas. Sure the ball went behind the inside backs, but the Irish defence was just totally disorganised. Half the line get caught ball watching by a fairly simply decoy. Then 13 rushes out of the defensive line and completely misses the tackle. The outside defender (15 - sorry no idea who it is) is then left stranded, flat footed, ball watching and rather than trusting the inside defensive line which is coming across and numbering up on Ansbro outside, he changes back in field. creating an overlap for the winger to run in to. To complete the comedy, he slips over and takes out the approaching Irish defense.

The commentator says "Scotland running through a training ground move" and to be honest that's how it looked. It was a fine finish, but even when the ball was with Ansbro in space, he could have and should have been shut down by whoever was coming across in the FB spot.

It looked exactly like a bunch of guys who didn't know where they were supposed to be and didn't trust their team mates to do their own jobs.

Yeah, but they all did so well for the first 76 minutes. The defence was great and then, a few positional changes, a lapse of concentration and we were exposed.

Yeah, much the same thing happened to the ABs against Oz. Backline changes and then whomp, Cooper gets space to run, flings an audacious pass and consolation try to the Aussies.

Who was playing where for Ireland when this occurred? Looked like a real pigs ear.

Well, McFadden spent the whole game at 13 but I think Kearney (15) probably struggled having to move to the wing. It wasn't great. Not stellar. Frustrating... given we defended so well for the whole game... very frustrating.

I understand Ireland lost it near the end. Actually more correctly put, Scotland won it in crunch time. But you made comments about the Ireland which, though having heard once or twice before, I can't possibly agree with. Not harping on you in particular lad, but on the arcane myth of Irish frailty. Apologies for selectively using your quotes to make my points:

red_stag wrote:Yesterday's game against Scotland reinforced the glaring mental frailty of the Irish psyche. Until this is addressed, rather than debating whether or not we can beat Australia and South Africa, the real question should be whether we can avoid a "surprise" defeat against the Italians.

A rugby game lasts EIGHTY minutes. Not 75 or 77 or 79 minutes. Try telling that to this crop of players. In reality this all started in Lens 12 years ago. But without having to delve back into the archives we'll keep it to say 2007 onward.

With congratulations and respect to Asbo and the Scottish National Rugby Team. A condescending pat on the back to Ireland for another great 77 minute display.

First of all, I think the Ireland players are thoroughly professional, tough, and mentally strong. Or they would not be at this level. I simply cannot buy the Ireland as mentally frail story. Are O'Connell or O'Driscoll mentally weak? OK, they did not play the other day. But Kearney, Trimble, O'Leary, Sexton, Flannery, Horan, Hayes and more have all been through the though matches for club(!) and country and have proven they can win in crunch time. And not just against England, by the way. These are good, solid players. I give those men much more credit. Perhaps Ireland were beaten by a team which played slightly better at the end of the match? Credit where credit is due?

I don't know where this myth originated, and I find it slating to Irish players (and supporters, by the way). These are different players in a different time and I do not buy the legacy nonsense. To me simply put Ireland have a very competitive first XV or even XXII. But there is a lack of depth, which is improving. As that improves that will improve the top players. Can Ireland on their day turn over anyone? Probably. But it will take some fortunate bounces since right now other countries, simply put, are a bit better.

Do I want to see Ireland do well in NZ? You bet. I pull for all Home Nations, then NH teams.

TheGreyGhost wrote:If you look at Scotland's try, near the end on first glimpse it looks like a real belter.

But watch it again and it's a different story. Most of the passes are laboured across the field, loopy and slow. All but the last pass required the recipient to either pause, or jump or otherwise take the foot off the gas. Sure the ball went behind the inside backs, but the Irish defence was just totally disorganised. Half the line get caught ball watching by a fairly simply decoy. Then 13 rushes out of the defensive line and completely misses the tackle. The outside defender (15 - sorry no idea who it is) is then left stranded, flat footed, ball watching and rather than trusting the inside defensive line which is coming across and numbering up on Ansbro outside, he changes back in field. creating an overlap for the winger to run in to. To complete the comedy, he slips over and takes out the approaching Irish defense.

The commentator says "Scotland running through a training ground move" and to be honest that's how it looked. It was a fine finish, but even when the ball was with Ansbro in space, he could have and should have been shut down by whoever was coming across in the FB spot.

It looked exactly like a bunch of guys who didn't know where they were supposed to be and didn't trust their team mates to do their own jobs.

Spot on GreyGhost. It was a nothing attack. Scotland were just shipping aimlessly across the field. If Ireland had of held their defensive line it would have led to nothing.

However McFadden (the Irish 13), who to be fair is inexperienced and had an other wise decent game, shot out of the line and there was a bit of obstruction by Morrison on Wallace(12), which left a big gap for Ainsborough, who showed a great turn of pace and finished very well.

It was a soft try to concede which is a shame considering we defended so well all game but it was a good learning curve for some of the inexperienced players that they can't switch off at this level.