ATG 15 Results

First topic message reminder :

The official results for the 606v2 all time pound for pound rankings are as follows:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
Simply put the greatest of all time, a world champion in both the Welterweight and Middleweight divisions, was also well on his way to claiming the light heavyweight championship from Joey Maxim when well ahead on the scorecards had to retire due to heat exhaustion. Notable scalps include- Gavilan, Basilio, LaMotta, Fullmer and Graziano

2. Henry Armstrong
The only man to hold 3 world titles simultaneously namely Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight, also holds the record for most defences of the Welterweight crown. Notable scalps include- Ross, Ambers, Garcia, Arizmendi and Larkin

3. Harry Greb
The Human Windmill beat more past and future world champions in history, a fighter who could punch from all angles while never stopping with an incredible chin and only ever stopped twice early in his career. Notable scalps include- Tunney, Walker, Rosenbloom, Loughran and McTigue.

4. Muhammad Ali
The most famous of them all, dominated the golden era of heavyweight boxing, had his prime years stolen following his refusal to fight in Vietnam, the first man to win the heavyweight crown three times. Notable scalps include- Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton and Patterson.

5. Ezzard Charles
Like many black fighters of his era was deemed to good for a host of world champions to risk their titles against until finally claiming the heavyweight crown following Louis' retirement. Made his name beating the best fighters of arguably the strongest era of light heavyweight boxing. Notable scalps include- Moore, Burley, Louis, Bivins and Walcott.

6. Sam Langford
Much like Charles was unfortunate in being good and black, had won tilt at a world title against Barbados Joe Walcott for his Welterweight title but ended in a draw, had to move up the divsions just to find fighters willing to face him and his incredible power. Notable scalps include- Gans, Mcvea, Jeannette, Godfrey and Wills.

7. Eder Jofre
The Golden Bantam as he was known was a fighter likened to the great Sugar Ray Robinson, could do everything to an excellent level, could box, could swarm and could most certainly punch, his career is epitomised by his return from retirement in his late 30's when he annexed the featherweight world title. Notable scalps include- Legra, Saldivar, Medel, Caldwell and Caraballo.

7. Bob Fitzsimmons
The first man to win three seperate world titles and the first and only fighter to win a lineal title in both the middleweight and heavyweight divisions, a fighter of two very distant halves, his muscular back and shoulders gained from his days as a blacksmith and his small spindly legs known for his devastating punching power. Notable scalps include- Choynski, Dempsey, Corbett, O'Brien and Sharkey.

9. Roberto Duran
The hands of stone a fighter often remembered for all the wrong reasons namely the 'No Mas' fight against Leonard and the humiliation at the hands of Tommy 'the hitman' Hearns, looking beyond that you have a four weight world champion who's career spanned 5 decades with wins from Bantamweight all the way up to Super middleweight. Notable scalps include- Leonard, DeJesus, Buchanan, Marcel and Palomino.

10. Benny Leonard
Like the man directly above him regarded as one of if not the greatest lightweight of them all, had a long and successful career including a tilt at the Welterweight crown against Jack Britton which ended in controversy. Notable scalps include- Tendler, Kansas, Britton, Welsh and Dundee.

11. Gene Tunney
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Willie Pep
14. Joe Gans
15. Barney Ross

16. Archie Moore
17. Pernell Whitaker
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Joe Louis
19. Sandy Saddler
21. Mickey Walker
22. Carlos Monzon
23. Marvin Hagler
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
24. Thomas Hearns
24. Ricardo Lopez
24. Bernard Hopkins
24. Kid Gavilan

I guess so ghosty, but on that basis, srl wouldn't make anyone's list. When reflex fighters lose it they often lose it badly and quickly... I agree that true greats like ali and robinson adapt and get by.

Jones was what 35? when he started losing, that used to be old for fighters.

I repeat though... i picked jones and chavez as illustrations I didn't vote for them.

My point was, if i'd only fleetingly heard of roy jones, but he'd fought in the 50's and a respected poster on here, pointed me to his record and waxed lyrical about the guys he beat and the length of his reign at multiple weights, might i have been suggesting him for the top 15. I think I might have considered it. As it is, it never entered my mind.

Moore does have losses to fighters who weren't in his class but then so does Armstrong so it depends on whether the depth of wins is enough to counteract this which in the case of both is a definite yes, add into that a series of great wins and you can overlook the losses to some extent. It's easy to say that Moore was fighting a lot of rubbish in those 200+ fights but more often than not he was fighting the highest level of opposition possible.

Leonard has the Hagler win when he was past his best and coming off a long lay off plus he beat the very best fighters out there.

Jones is a fighter i'll openly admit to not rating very highly, he looked flashy beating the fighters he fought but aside from Hopkins, Toney and Hill they weren't anything to write home about and when we look back we'll see he wasn't even the man in his famed division of light heavyweight. Give me Hopkins and I would happily try and fit him into a top 15.

you won't find a biiger srl fan than me ghosty, ask atila if he happens along. The hagler fight was a great win under the circumstances, but it was two guys past their best. His decline was pretty notable after that.

Anyway, it was the principle i was trying to debate, not the specific fighters raised so i'll leave it at that

The principle is it that it depends on the individual boxer, I will happily rate Hopkins around the 16/17 mark possibly higher depending on future victories while Pacquiao and Mayweather are bordering on the top 20.

My question was whether we treat the old and new even handedly. I'll take it, that you think we do then!

So, let's say mayweather beates ortiz, finally fights and beats manny comfortably has another couple of fights and retires unbeaten. Where does he end up then?

Mayweather does that and he becomes a top ten fighter, likewise if Pacquiao beats Mayweather and has another couple of good wins then he too will get into the top ten.

Milky as someone who has been accused, probably fairly of favouring the old timers I have to concur that I would have no issue in anyone having Floyd in his top ten were he to do as you have suggested, it is hard for modern fighters though, some of it such as the proliferation of belts and the difficulty in proving yourself the best in your division is largely beyond their control, some things such as how infrequently they fight is something they can be blamed for.

Am not stupid I realise with PPV and tv requirements the days a fighter would have a dozen fights a year are long gone but do feel some fighters, Floyd in particular take this inactivity to ridiculous extremes, is it something like three fights in four years? If so that is nowhere near good enough. However to mitigate this will say if a guy is fighting consistently great fighters and racking up big wins a pretty limited number of fights does not preclude him from these lists, as I had Leonard in my top fifteen and he was hardly active.

fair points gents. mayweather would have an exemplary record, but should be held back a little for his inactivity and lack of unification fights.

Leonard fought benitez, hearns and duran twice in his first 7 title fights. chuck kalule in there, and that's a tough list for anyone to beat. ongevity wasn't his thing tho'!

Right now, Mayweather would be somewhere between the twenty-fifth and thirtieth. For arguement's sake, let's just say twenty-eighth, for example. If he adds to his resume with wins against Ortiz, Pacquiao and, perhaps, someone like Khan and then retires unbeaten, he's easily in the top fifteen. Not sure I could squeeze him in to the top ten though, but it's possible. Hopefully he (or Pacquiao) will put me in a position where I have to try and make that decision!

Floyd is a tricky one isn't he Chris even if he does what you have mentioned, because maybe it is a reflection of his ability or genuinely is the case but I don't see a massive desire on his part to step too far out of his comfort zone and really take a massive test. Will not go over the Manny thing again as it's been done to death but even a step to middle to take on a guy like Martinez would be a fight he would not start as a prohibitive favourite in and would add that wow win such as Duran over Leonard to his ledger.

Hard to be too critical because if he can't do the weight he can't do it but to rank him with the real elite of the game do feel he may need something like this to put any debate beyond doubt.

On current form a win over Khan would aside from Pacquiao be the one that enhances his legacy the most, were he to go all out and beat Martinez which I think he's capable of doing then you're in a very tricky situation of where to place him. Maintain that Pacquiao needs Mayweather more than Mayweather needs Pacquiao.

Well Ghosty, if he did what I outlined in beating Ortiz, Pacquiao and Khan but then also took a portion of the Middleweight title from the top man at 160 lb, it would probably put a top ten spot beyond any doubt. I feel that Mayweather has wasted a lot of what could and should have been his best years between roughly 2005 and 2009, but doing that would more than make up for it. I don't ever see him venturing higher than Welterweight again, though. And in fairness, I don't blame him for that. He's done more than enough weight jumping, just not enough actual fighting against the absolute top challengers, perhaps.

I can't see him fighting Martinez at middleweight but how would a fight with him at light middleweight change things?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I can't see him fighting Martinez at middleweight but how would a fight with him at light middleweight change things?

Would still be a superb win, just not quite as good as if he were to beat him at 160 lb, where Martinez looks better for my money. Mayweather has taken a portion of the Light-Middleweight crown before, whereas fighting at Middleweight would be breaking totally new ground for him. I think Martinez's 154 lb days are numbered anyway, even though he's suggested otherwise. Just my opinion of course, but not too many guys in their mid-thirties, after reaching their peak and finding universal recognition at a certain weight, are going to move back down.

Aside from Ortiz, Pacquiao, Khan and Martinez there isn't a lot for him to do, not really sure a fight with anyone else at Welterweight or even Light Middleweight enhances his legacy, they're either old or past it in the case of Cotto or totally unproven in the case of Alvarez.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Aside from Ortiz, Pacquiao, Khan and Martinez there isn't a lot for him to do, not really sure a fight with anyone else at Welterweight or even Light Middleweight enhances his legacy, they're either old or past it in the case of Cotto or totally unproven in the case of Alvarez.

I'd agree, which is why I think that wins over Ortiz, Pacquiao and Khan (or two of the three, as long as Pacquiao is one of them) would make even me, a bit of a Mayweather critic, hold my hands up and say that his right to be considered a truly elite all-time great of the sport is beyond question. The Martinez fight would be an extra bonus, but not taking it wouldn't count against him at all if he took care of the other business at Welterweight.

Would guess the only thing to add into that Ghosty is his age, if he was beating those kind of guys over the next two or three year period he would be pushing 37 or 38, to be at that age and still beating every young gun the division has to offer is pretty impressive.

Would anyone see him beating Martinez, though?

That is very true Jeff and many of the fighters we've picked are enhanced by the latter years of their careers, without Legra and Saldivar at featheweight in his late 30's very much doubt we'd see Jofre ranked so highly nor would Moore have such infamousy if he wasn't champion well into his 40's.

I do rate Mayweather very highly personally, only ever been in one close fight against Castillo first time around which I thought he lost by a considerable margin but aside from that you can't argue too much about his career starting with Hatton and moving backwards.

Fists of Fury wrote:Would anyone see him beating Martinez, though?

I acutally do Fists, Martinez isn't the biggest of middleweights nor do I consider him to be an overly talented one harsh as that sounds, i'd be interested to see how he deals with someone who's quicker and silkier than him, come fight night there would probably be over a stone advantage to Martinez but I see that as his only real advantage.

Fists of Fury wrote:Would anyone see him beating Martinez, though?

I think he's capable, yes. You can put question marks over Mayweather's desire (or lack of) to fully test and extend himself or to search out the biggest challenges available to him, but never over his sublime talent. At 154 lb I'd say it's a pick 'em, at Middleweight I'd say that Martinez is certainly the favourite, but I wouldn't write Mayweather off or be surprised if he got the victory.

Martinez would have a fair old size advantage, or course, but don't forget that Mayweather was giving away something like 15 lb to De la Hoya on fight night and still got the job done. Granted, Martinez would be a different animal to the 2007 version of De la Hoya, but size wouldn't be the be all and end all should Mayweather ever face Martinez.

I'd have Martinez as a very slight favourite, just because of the power and weight difference, though I wouldn't be surprised to see a Floyd points win.

I'm not too sure that Floyd would be able to keep Martinez off him, unless he could get him to respect his power. I think that would be a good indicator of how hard Floyd actually hits.