Fights that would've turned out differently if they'd met earlier?

Afternoon, bit slow on here so a semi-serious look at some fights that have witnessed a one sided beating that could've been different if they'd happened earlier:

Wilde vs Villa: Wilde took an almighty beating, if memory servers me right he came out for the start of the 7th after taking a severe beating in the 6th. Men with granite chins by todays standards wouldn't have lasted 2 rounds such was the beatdown a faded and retirement ditching Wilde received. Who wins the showdown between the #1 and #2 great flyweights if they met each other some 2 years earlier?

Ali vs Holmes: The Ali that faced Holmes wasn't the Ali many were accustomed to. Holmes pretty much carried Ali through the fight. If Ali had met Holmes some 4 years earlier (which isn't out of the realms of possibility as Holmes fought Norton, Shavers etc from memory around then) would the result have been vastly different i.e. a big UD for Ali?

RJJ vs Calzaghe: The version of RJJ that fought JC was more shot than a Mexican drug dealer. It's naturally well within the realms of possibility these 2 could've met any time really before 2005, would it have been different of would've RJJ been finally exposed prior to the Ruiz fight which commonly gets used as a starter for his decline?

FMJ vs DLH: The latter still had something left @ 154 against the naturally smaller guy, would a prime 154lb version of DLH have had enough to figure out the defensive wizardry of FMJ if he'd moved up sooner? And most people had DLH losing by roughly 8-4, yours truly included and i was a big DLH fan.

Thanks

Coxy

Tyson v Douglas before Cus died. Tyson would have eaten him for dinner and then Holy would be desert.

Whatever you say ONETWO, the guy was a hype job........FACT!

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Tyson v Douglas before Cus died. Tyson would have eaten him for dinner and then Holy would be desert.

Him trying to eat Holyfield was part of the problem.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Whatever you say ONETWO, the guy was a hype job........FACT!

Hype jobs dont unify the HEAVYWEIGHT division at 20 years of age Reborn.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Tyson v Douglas before Cus died. Tyson would have eaten him for dinner and then Holy would be desert.

Tyson was an eleven fight rookie pro when Cus died.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Whatever you say ONETWO, the guy was a hype job........FACT!

Hype jobs dont unify the HEAVYWEIGHT division at 20 years of age Reborn.

Did you not read the message!!??

I SAID FACT!!!!!!!!!! Not talkin about it anymore.



Nah, only kiddin ye!!!

HumanWindmill wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Tyson v Douglas before Cus died. Tyson would have eaten him for dinner and then Holy would be desert.

Tyson was an eleven fight rookie pro when Cus died.

Don't let the facts get in the way of good story though Windy.

Collins v either Benn or Chrith about 4 yrs earlier i think they would have walked over him.

Lewis v Tyson in the 80's. I think the result would have been the same but it would have been more interesting to know the real what if.

Hatton v Kostya. A more interesting fight a few yrs earlier but Hatton was probably peak where Kostya was maybe on the potential energy to descend.

Leonard-Norris
Holyfield-Valuev
Robinson-Archer
RJJ-Green

Fights that would've turned out differently if they'd met earlier?
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The time I schooled that war veteran...

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Tyson v Douglas before Cus died. Tyson would have eaten him for dinner and then Holy would be desert.

Tyson was an eleven fight rookie pro when Cus died.

Don't let the facts get in the way of good story though Windy.

Ha !

Wouldn't dream of it, mate..............................

I think had leonard met Camacho earlier he would have schooled him and koed him.

Good article, Coxy.

I'd have Ali beating Holmes quite convincingly on points, Wilde vs Villa as a real pick 'em, ditto with RJJ vs Calzaghe, I'm not sure it would have been the one sided beating that everyone suggests it would have been, though Roy may have got the decision with his flashier work. Joe's work rate would have provided a real problem, and it would depend on Roy's ability to match this.

I would have Oscar beating Floyd at 154 a few years earlier, considering that Oscar gave him a rough time of it when they did meet.

Calderon vs Segura?

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:I think had leonard met Camacho earlier he would have schooled him and koed him.

Yeah. This thread is basically the last loss of each boxers career.

Whilst I'd still pick Ali to win it think had the second Liston fight not been delayed Sonny would not have gone out with such a whimper as all the reports from his camp suggest he was in terrific shape and really up for it first time round. Would still back Ali but think Sonny would have given him an argument.

I think that Zarate was unlucky not to get the nod against Pintor in 1979 - for my money, had they met before Zarate took that beating from Gomez, I think he'd have put Pintor away inside the distance.

Some think that Benitez would have beaten Duran at any stage of their careers - I disagree. Had Duran dipped his toes at 140 lb when he was at his best, I think he beats Benitez the large majority of the time.

I don't think that De la Hoya could have beaten Whitaker had they met two or three years earlier than they did. By 1997, the writing was on the wall that 'Sweet Pea' was maybe losing some of his magic; struggled first time out with Rivera, looked solid rather than his usual spectacular self against Vasquez, and unable to follow up his usual clowing and gimmickry with anything worthwhile in the shape of punches when he met the 'Golden Boy.' I don't think that would have been the case circa 1993/1994.

berto - ortiz, if it had happened instead of maidana ortiz sometime around august 2009, then i feel berto could've won, without the maidana fight its possible ortiz might have stayed down after the 2nd knockdown.

Yeah. This thread is basically the last loss of each boxers career.


yeah i agree, i think some of the examples are pretty obvious because one fighter is very shot against an up and comer, its better when two fighters are maybe within 2 or 3 years of eachother in age

How about Chavez v Randall then. They were about the same age, but I seriously doubt The Surgeon would have beaten JCC had they met earlier, great performance though it was.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:How about Chavez v Randall then. They were about the same age, but I seriously doubt The Surgeon would have beaten JCC had they met earlier, great performance though it was.

Great performance Tino and I understand your view but Randel was determined in that fight and fought the right fight. His fitness was the key most Chavez victims gas as he wears them down but Randel had the engine to trade with Chavez even in the championship rounds. Also he koed him in the 11th round so I think he could have given Chavez nightmares at any point.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:How about Chavez v Randall then. They were about the same age, but I seriously doubt The Surgeon would have beaten JCC had they met earlier, great performance though it was.

Great performance Tino and I understand your view but Randel was determined in that fight and fought the right fight. His fitness was the key most Chavez victims gas as he wears them down but Randel had the engine to trade with Chavez even in the championship rounds. Also he koed him in the 11th round so I think he could have given Chavez nightmares at any point.

He knocked him down in the 11th but the fight went the distance. I would never suggest that it wasn't a great performance, and the straight right that floored JCC was a peach of a punch but I think a few years earlier and Chavez would have broken him down. I could be wrong, and Randall had the style to be a problem for Chavez at any time, but so did many fighters before Frankie and JCC had always found a way previously.

Two easy ones for me, instanly spring to mind when I had my Leek Soup at lunch.

Calzaghe v R Jones Jnr - Walkover for R Jones.

Calzaghe v Eubank - ditto for Eubank

I think you're both right in a sense with regards to Chavez-Randall, oddly enough. I definitely think that the 1990/1991 version of Chavez wins more often than not, but Randall is underestimated. I think that even had he met Chavez then, he gives him absolute nightmares and a very, very tough fight. A sharp counter-puncher was never the kind of opponent Chavez relished facing, and unusually for a fighter of that ilk, Randall had some serious power, too.

Come to think of it, Randall is probably one of the more underrated and underappreciated Light-Welterweight champions. Boxed a classic with Rosario, could easily have been 2-0 in those title fights with a still very dangerous version of Chavez, and won two out of three against Coggi. Very impressive CV.

Lewis v Holyfield about 3 years before it happened would be interesting.

Tunney v Dempsey a couple of years earlier also.

JDandfries wrote:Two easy ones for me, instanly spring to mind when I had my Leek Soup at lunch.

Calzaghe v R Jones Jnr - Walkover for R Jones.

Calzaghe v Eubank - ditto for Eubank

I assume you are on the wind up here, otherwise these are pretty bold claims!

Not sure Jones walks over Calzaghe at any point nor would Eubank

88Chris05 wrote:I think you're both right in a sense with regards to Chavez-Randall, oddly enough. I definitely think that the 1990/1991 version of Chavez wins more often than not, but Randall is underestimated. I think that even had he met Chavez then, he gives him absolute nightmares and a very, very tough fight. A sharp counter-puncher was never the kind of opponent Chavez relished facing, and unusually for a fighter of that ilk, Randall had some serious power, too.

Come to think of it, Randall is probably one of the more underrated and underappreciated Light-Welterweight champions. Boxed a classic with Rosario, could easily have been 2-0 in those title fights with a still very dangerous version of Chavez, and won two out of three against Coggi. Very impressive CV.

I agree Chris, and was alluding to that in my previous post. He did always have the style to cause Chavez problems but he seemed to blossom later in career whereas Chavez's style was always going to mean he slowed at a more obvious rate than a counter-punching boxer.

Perhaps you should nip over to Fists thread about unpopular but skilled fighters and post this again!

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Not sure Jones walks over Calzaghe at any point nor would Eubank

i think calzaghe deserves a bit of credit for the win of RJJ, he wasnt a spring chicken himself at that point in his career, people seldom mention calzaghe getting on in years, just talk about his opponents.

I wouldn't say he deserves much credit, as RJJ has shown just how far gone he is since, the only surprise was that he didn't get his senses rearranged, as all the opponents since have done to him.

However, Calzaghe is a walk over for nobody, and would give any super middle in history a very, very tough time.

eubank v collins
benn v collins
Morales v maidana

i'd say the jones we see today is a lot worse than 3 years ago, not disagreeing with the fact that he was pass his prime, but joe was about 36-37 at the time of the fight, so himself was past his prime.

The biggest joke is that the fight happened when it did, and not during their respective primes. I feel we were robbed of a cracker, and a true career defining fight for each of them. They could be ranked so much more highly in the ATG stakes if they had taken that fight.

we will probably end up saying the exact same thing about mayweather and pacquiao in a few years. i remember at the time people were saying hopkins was past it as well, and he has gone on to show that isnt the case at all.

Hopkins was a very good win for Calzaghe, his best by a country mile, upon reflection. Followed by Kessler and Lacy.

The Eubank/Collins question is a puzzling one for me. Unless its taken that there is a clear distinction between pre and post Watson Eubank going back 4/5 years.

Ive never bought too heavily into the idea that Eubank was shot for the Collins fights. He had been unbeaten in the years between Watson and Collins, if occasionally inconsistent. He was also the right side of thirty. I dont think his lacklustre performances were anything to do with the Watson incident. I just think it was in Eubanks nature to tend to be occasionally lazy and go through the motions against lesser opposition. What may be more relevant was that he was no longer as willing to pull the trigger.

But even post Collins defeats he managed to knock out his next couple of opponents and also performed heroically against Thompson at cruisrweight. It doesnt really indicate a shot fighter to me. I just think Collins high workrate and unwillingness to give Eubank room made him highly uncomfortable and wasnt a style he was comfortable with, likewise with Calzaghes high volume punching and high tempo.

There is more weight behind the notion that Benn was faded as he went into the Collins bouts off a loss to Malinga and his performances were visibly lacklustre culminating with a decision to retire on his stool.

Personally think the Watson incident had everything to do with his lacklustre performances and will admit I don't see Collins getting close to beating him were it prior to Watson.

Hopkins vs Jones 2 should have happened a lot sooner and would have been a worth while fight. Also Barrera vs Marquez could have happened a bit sooner I think by 2007 Barrera was slightly on the way down and had been in a few too many wars whereas Marquez as aged well as a fighter.

Eubank pre Watson would have had too much heart for Calzaghe and I could see him winning by a stoppage.

RJJ would have made Joe quit

If thats the case then you must believe Eubank was shot for years, as opposed to simply when Collins turned up 4 years later which is often how its presented, and which I dont necessarily agree with.

In my opinion Eubank was a fighter that liked space and room to work, and didnt enjoy high tempo. I think the Watson incident took the edge off his killer instinct but it shouldnt have really affected his all around boxing too badly to stop him just outboxing inferior opposition. I just think he had something of a lazy streak in him and against lower level opposition found it more difficult to up his game and motivation.

I think due to the nature of Eubank and Collins style fights between the pair were always likely to be close enough contests in a quality v quantity sense.

I would have loved to have seen Vitali vs Lennox in about 1999/2000. Would have been interesting...

The problem is the Watson incident quite clearly affected Eubank and rightly so, he was never the same fighter again as was shown in the majority of his fights, simply don't rate Collins and fail to see how he would beat a better version of Eubank when he only just scraped past a poor one.

In fairness, I don't think Eubank claimed that he was past his best by the time of the Collins fights - as Colonial pointed out, he was still only twenty-eight. But he did say that his hectic schedule (seven fights in twelve months, pretty much unheard of for a world champion in the post-war era) played a part, and that he'd simply "bitten of more than he could chew" by taking the Collins fight at the end of a hectic twelve months.

I do think that the Eubank of 1990-1991 would take a points win over the dour Collins had they met then, but I don't think the 1995 results were down to Eubank being 'shot.' More, it was just a case of him stagnating after the Watson bouts and Collins steadily improving as his career went on.

JDandfries wrote:Eubank pre Watson would have had too much heart for Calzaghe and I could see him winning by a stoppage.

RJJ would have made Joe quit

What gives you the idea that Calzaghe would quit against Jones?

Lewis in 1999/2000 was probably just about at his peak, whereas Vitali was beating Herbie Hide, Ed Mahone and Obed Sullivan. Not sure the fight would have been remotely as close as 2003. Wouldn't have been an easy night for Lennox but far comfortable than it turned out in 2003.

Collins even as a quite inexperienced fighter gave top fighters like McCallum and Kalambay a huge amount of problems. I would put these guys as a notch up from the Eubanks/Collins/Watson/Benn/ in general. Collins certainly did far better against McCallum as a kid than Watson managed, and Watson gave Eubank hell before the incident. I dont see the gap in quality being as wide as you do. Eubank certainy a more skillfull boxer, but Collins with a style to trouble anyone.

Style wise I don't see Collins troubling a motivated Eubank.

Well we will have to disgree on that I suppose

JDandfries wrote:Two easy ones for me, instanly spring to mind when I had my Leek Soup at lunch.

Calzaghe v R Jones Jnr - Walkover for R Jones.

Calzaghe v Eubank - ditto for Eubank

The first one may have a little weight to it. Although see Calzaghe eating some hard leather before working out Jones Junior and giving him hell later on. Close fight but Jones would probably take it.

As for the second one. Complete and utter rubbish! What exactly could Eubank do that Calzaghe couldn't handle at any stage in either of their careers? As for Eubank "not being the same" after Watson that's a bit far fetched. Eubank was always a bit of a waster in the ring even before that tragic second fight with Watson. The thing he couldn't do as easily was pull the trigger but he was always a lazy and inconsistent performer before all that.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Style wise I don't see Collins troubling a motivated Eubank.

I think there's something of a myth with both Eubank and Benn. Both were good fighters but they defined themselves on the domestic scene rather than internationally. For this reason as well as the fact they were famous because of terrestrial TV they tend to be overrated. Collins went in with better quality in America than both Benn and Eubank and a green Collins gave McCallum and Johnson nightmares. Collins for me would beat both Benn and Eubank at any stage of their respective careers. There's a lot of rose tinted specs wearers when it comes to Eubank and Benn. Collins for me was just a better fighter. Period.