Ireland Team for 1st France Test

I still think he could be their to draw pressure away from ROG and force our centres/forwards into making tackles. All he has to do is cut down the space and options for the opposition and someone will bring him down.

MMC wrote:Sin,
Look, I know you're passionate about Irish rugby and you want what's best for the team, but why does every single debate descend into you arguing your corner ad nauseum against someone else? Could you not just agree to disagree and move on?

Why is everyone trying to argue with facts

If no one tried to dismiss the facts, I wouldn't have to argue 'ad nauseum'.

Still, now some people are beginning to cop on that the French like to attack out wide from having a look at the facts!

Notch as i said in my post we are JINXED when playing France in France so we have no chance of beating them with a weaker team

And please do not reply with one of those smileys to a post of mine

Thank You

Are we not equally jinxed playing the big teams in the SH then?

I was really hoping Felix Jones would get a start as i am a big fan

C'mon You Irish wrote:Notch as i said in my post we are JINXED when playing France in France so we have no chance of beating them with a weaker team

Oh well in that case I don't see the point is us playing. We should forfeit.

C'mon You Irish wrote:And please do not reply with one of those smileys to a post of mine

Thank You

This is just gold.

C'mon You Irish wrote:And please do not reply with one of those smileys to a post of mine

Thank You

Your logic is a bit flawed Irish. I think a win over here would be massive, it would lay the demons of the last WC to rest and would instill belief in the team they can win big away games.

C'mon You Irish wrote:I was really hoping Felix Jones would get a start as i am a big fan

Me too. I hope he gets longer than 20 minutes when he comes on.

Dont get me wrong Kearney on top form is the best FB in world rugby FACT but up untill he got injured he was playing just as bad as Darcy and you all know how i feel about him

So i think it would have been good if Deccie had given felix a few starts

C'mon You Irish wrote:Dont get me wrong Kearney on top form is the best FB in world rugby FACT but up untill he got injured he was playing just as bad as Darcy and you all know how i feel about him

So i think it would have been good if Deccie had given felix a few starts

Boyne please remove your attention seeking reply to my post

Your very welcome

You are = you're
Your = possessive adjective

Innit.

Boyne i didn't no i was sitting an english exam

But as you love english soo much i have left a few speeling mistakes in my reply just for your enjoyment

YOU ARE WELCOME

C'mon You Irish wrote:Dont get me wrong Kearney on top form is the best FB in world rugby FACT but up untill he got injured he was playing just as bad as Darcy and you all know how i feel about him

So i think it would have been good if Deccie had given felix a few starts

We lost one of our pub regulars today. Someone with great insight and valuable experience. This is a great forum. Ruined by people who post utter crap as seen above.

WillyGilly wrote:

C'mon You Irish wrote:Dont get me wrong Kearney on top form is the best FB in world rugby FACT but up untill he got injured he was playing just as bad as Darcy and you all know how i feel about him

So i think it would have been good if Deccie had given felix a few starts

We lost one of our pub regulars today. Someone with great insight and valuable experience. This is a great forum. Ruined by people who post utter crap as seen above.

+ 1 although I presume you're not referring to the crap I've been posting Willy? ...

Come on lads try and keep on topic. A bit of banter is fair enough but there's no need for the stupid stuff.

WILLYGILLY

You name says it all really

Good to see Leo and DOC play together too - cant remember them having much meaningful game time before??? Anyone help?

Almost feels like a lions series with so many different combinations been tried out both the backs and forwards over a couple of matches. Would have liked to have seen a bit more of this over the last 18 months - but at least its happening.

No Rodders I've managed to fine tune your crap out by now

I was refering to the 'Kearney being the best fb in the world when he's on form' prat above.

I'm just going to try something new here, bear with me...


Would anyone like to discuss rugby?

Controversial...

C'mon You Irish wrote:WILLYGILLY

You name says it all really

Look Irish you're a funny guy and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but if you've nothing sensible to contribrute to this thread then please feck off. Thanks.

Anyway, I'm surprised people are already reading so much into this team. I'm not sure Ryan is a cert to travel just because he's named, for example. This is the second game of 5 and there are plenty more matchday 22s to announce.

I'm pretty certain BOD will go, for example

Duffy has missed out, and the point was made earlier that he was already surplus to requirements, but I think that has more to do with Kearney needing game time and Jones likely to benefit more from the 20-odd minutes he'll get at the end of the game. Duffy is playing for Connacht at the weekend against Exeter, so he'll get 80 minutes of match practice this weekend as well.

Not that I'm suggesting Duffy will travel, I would doubt that very much, but I'd imagine we'll see him in a team at some point, as I'd imagine we'll see everyone. I don't know about the maths but with the provinces also playing right now everyone should be able to get at least one start and two subs appearances or something like that.

Rodder WILLYGILLY attacked me first i was only acting in self - defence

Anyways im off out may not be able to post before the games so i will leave you with my pearls of wisdom

Expect us to be beat by somewhere between 10-13 points with us starting strong and fading badly second half scoring no more than 3 points

Bookmark it and let me know how great i am after the game XXXX

Greybeard I think the fact that Ryan started last week at lock and this week at 6 suggests he's the front runner for that utility backrow/lock spot. I'd say it was a 3 way battle between him, McCarthy and KM so the fact that the latter two aren't in this squad says a lot.

True, but you can't check everyone at the same time. Someone has to step aside and someone will manage to get two matches in a row. For the record I think Ryan will probably go, but I don't see him being selected now as being indicative that he's the managements favourite.

McCarthy played at 6, then at lock while Ryan was substituted last week, it could be argued that he was favourite because he stayed on the pitch(I doubt it though). The management team will have seen both Ryan and McCarthy in both positions by the weekend.

Sin é wrote:

MMC wrote:Sin,
Look, I know you're passionate about Irish rugby and you want what's best for the team, but why does every single debate descend into you arguing your corner ad nauseum against someone else? Could you not just agree to disagree and move on?

Why is everyone trying to argue with facts

If no one tried to dismiss the facts, I wouldn't have to argue 'ad nauseum'.

Still, now some people are beginning to cop on that the French like to attack out wide from having a look at the facts!

Stats are not facts.

Only if they're made up.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

MMC wrote:Sin,
Look, I know you're passionate about Irish rugby and you want what's best for the team, but why does every single debate descend into you arguing your corner ad nauseum against someone else? Could you not just agree to disagree and move on?

Why is everyone trying to argue with facts

If no one tried to dismiss the facts, I wouldn't have to argue 'ad nauseum'.

Still, now some people are beginning to cop on that the French like to attack out wide from having a look at the facts!

Stats are not facts.

But facts can be stats.

For instance, Brian O'Driscoll has 112 caps for Ireland. That is a fact and a stat.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

MMC wrote:Sin,
Look, I know you're passionate about Irish rugby and you want what's best for the team, but why does every single debate descend into you arguing your corner ad nauseum against someone else? Could you not just agree to disagree and move on?

Why is everyone trying to argue with facts

If no one tried to dismiss the facts, I wouldn't have to argue 'ad nauseum'.

Still, now some people are beginning to cop on that the French like to attack out wide from having a look at the facts!

Stats are not facts.

But facts can be stats.

For instance, Brian O'Driscoll has 112 caps for Ireland. That is a fact and a stat.

Yes but the fact is, that you bring stats into every argument. Stats such as tackles made in seperate games and even by different players in the same game can give a false impression of the players and of the games. There is also the problem with stats released on websites often being quite different from the official ones which are in turn often different from the Irish management's stats. Stats only give us so much information and they must be viewed in context of the game itself.

I wonder how many test caps O'Driscoll will finish up on. Lions caps count which puts him on 118. He'll very soon be 2nd on the all time list behind Gregan who's on 139. Could O'Driscoll reach that?

He's already the highest 5/6 Nations try scorer of all time. He's the only non-back three player in the all time test tries top ten. He must be one of the most capped test captains to.

What a legend. He's been so good that I don't think there's even any stats that suggest a Munster center was better than him.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

MMC wrote:Sin,
Look, I know you're passionate about Irish rugby and you want what's best for the team, but why does every single debate descend into you arguing your corner ad nauseum against someone else? Could you not just agree to disagree and move on?

Why is everyone trying to argue with facts

If no one tried to dismiss the facts, I wouldn't have to argue 'ad nauseum'.

Still, now some people are beginning to cop on that the French like to attack out wide from having a look at the facts!

Stats are not facts.

But facts can be stats.

For instance, Brian O'Driscoll has 112 caps for Ireland. That is a fact and a stat.

Yes but the fact is, that you bring stats into every argument. Stats such as tackles made in seperate games and even by different players in the same game can give a false impression of the players and of the games. There is also the problem with stats released on websites often being quite different from the official ones which are in turn often different from the Irish management's stats. Stats only give us so much information and they must be viewed in context of the game itself.

I feel sorry for having a problem with my backing up my opinion with facts/stats. I find it annoying when people make claims without any supporting facts/stats. So, I guess we're quits now on that one. I'm sure you find it difficult when you can't back up your opinion with anything.

The stats I use come from the company (statistician is Stuart Farmer) which is the official statician to the English Premiership & the Magners League, as well as Sky Sports. So, it looks like the Magners clubs must rate them. Stuart Farmer has recently co-authored (with Eddie Grieb, the SA Rugby Union's official statistician) on South African Rugby.

There can be differences between the different compilers of information, but they are generally there, or there about. I seem to remember for instance during the Grand Slam year that Kidney mentioned in one of the games Ireland missed one tackle. I checked it out on the stats I use and they had Ireland down as missing two.

I agree with your point about stats only giving you so much information, but basing all opinion on nothing more than a cliched comment is in my book, worse.

How many caps as Captain does smit have?

Let's say bod retires after lions tour for the sake of argument.

2 tests In summer tour 2011
Guess at 4 in the rwc
Let's be optimistic say 5 in 6N 2012
Another 2 in summer tour 2012???
Another 2/3 in autumn 2012???
4 games in 2013 6N???

A lions test or 2????

This is all without injuries.

Will be close

You don't need stats to back up an opinion; you can watch a game and form an opinion before the stats come out.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I wonder how many test caps O'Driscoll will finish up on. Lions caps count which puts him on 118. He'll very soon be 2nd on the all time list behind Gregan who's on 139. Could O'Driscoll reach that?

He's already the highest 5/6 Nations try scorer of all time. He's the only non-back three player in the all time test tries top ten. He must be one of the most capped test captains to.

What a legend. He's been so good that I don't think there's even any stats that suggest a Munster center was better than him.

Hopefully he will be the 2nd Irish captain to win World Player of the Year AND a Lions Test Series. He won't be able to beat Woody's World Try Scoring record (15 international trys) for a hooker though

(PS - against Wales when Earls Partnered BOD in the centre 2 years ago, BOD missed two tackles and Earls didn't miss any.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

MMC wrote:Sin,
Look, I know you're passionate about Irish rugby and you want what's best for the team, but why does every single debate descend into you arguing your corner ad nauseum against someone else? Could you not just agree to disagree and move on?

Why is everyone trying to argue with facts

If no one tried to dismiss the facts, I wouldn't have to argue 'ad nauseum'.

Still, now some people are beginning to cop on that the French like to attack out wide from having a look at the facts!

Stats are not facts.

But facts can be stats.

For instance, Brian O'Driscoll has 112 caps for Ireland. That is a fact and a stat.

Yes but the fact is, that you bring stats into every argument. Stats such as tackles made in seperate games and even by different players in the same game can give a false impression of the players and of the games. There is also the problem with stats released on websites often being quite different from the official ones which are in turn often different from the Irish management's stats. Stats only give us so much information and they must be viewed in context of the game itself.

I feel sorry for having a problem with my backing up my opinion with facts/stats. I find it annoying when people make claims without any supporting facts/stats. So, I guess we're quits now on that one. I'm sure you find it difficult when you can't back up your opinion with anything.

The stats I use come from the company (statistician is Stuart Farmer) which is the official statician to the English Premiership & the Magners League, as well as Sky Sports. So, it looks like the Magners clubs must rate them. Stuart Farmer has recently co-authored (with Eddie Grieb, the SA Rugby Union's official statistician) on South African Rugby.

There can be differences between the different compilers of information, but they are generally there, or there about. I seem to remember for instance during the Grand Slam year that Kidney mentioned in one of the games Ireland missed one tackle. I checked it out on the stats I use and they had Ireland down as missing two.

I agree with your point about stats only giving you so much information, but basing all opinion on nothing more than a cliched comment is in my book, worse.

Stats can be useful but people are making their comments based on what the see in games. SOB will have to cover defensively for rog. This might not be born out in the stats but people will be able to see it at defensive lineouts where sob will stand at 10. This is what wallace does for munster and ireland. If sexton was playing, he would stay at 10. This is a fact that stats won't back up because their is no detail in stats.

Notch wrote:You don't need stats to back up an opinion; you can watch a game and form an opinion before the stats come out.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Doesn't necessarily mean its correct. It might explain why coaching staff and players use them.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:How many caps as Captain does smit have?

Let's say bod retires after lions tour for the sake of argument.

2 tests In summer tour 2011
Guess at 4 in the rwc
Let's be optimistic say 5 in 6N 2012
Another 2 in summer tour 2012???
Another 2/3 in autumn 2012???
4 games in 2013 6N???

A lions test or 2????

This is all without injuries.

Will be close

You'd hope that bod will be phased out over the next two years. The last thing we need is what happened with england where some players held on too long too the detriment of the team. Unfortunately he is the best 13 we've ever had and is still in the top 3 or 4 in the world now, which means you ever replaces him will have an impossible task and be criticised no matter what they do. of I'd be surprised if he makes the lions in 2013.

Notch wrote:You don't need stats to back up an opinion; you can watch a game and form an opinion before the stats come out.

Unfortunately it seems many like to skip the middle man and form an opinion before the game!

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You don't need stats to back up an opinion; you can watch a game and form an opinion before the stats come out.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Doesn't necessarily mean its correct. It might explain why coaching staff and players use them.

They are a useful tool but they don't completely rely on them. Stats are useless in isolation, you can't just use them on there own.

valjester wrote:
Stats can be useful but people are making their comments based on what the see in games. SOB will have to cover defensively for rog. This might not be born out in the stats but people will be able to see it at defensive lineouts where sob will stand at 10. This is what wallace does for munster and ireland. If sexton was playing, he would stay at 10. This is a fact that stats won't back up because their is no detail in stats.

So whats the big deal about where SOB stands? He has to stand somewhere!

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You don't need stats to back up an opinion; you can watch a game and form an opinion before the stats come out.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Doesn't necessarily mean its correct. It might explain why coaching staff and players use them.

Oh yeah, but there's a lot of misinterpretation of statistics going on on this site. A tackle made/missed can only tell you so much for instance, I think funnyExiledScot made that point very well recently. Seeing how many passes a player made is fairly meaningless without knowing what those passes led to. And so on. And the stats on a site like ESPN scrum.com are nowhere near as accurate as the official statistics that aren't really in the public domain.

I've seen people make incredibly insightful points on forums without ever needing to refer to statitistics and I've seen people try and use statistics to justify ludicrous arguments. Don't get too hung up on stats. They are a useful resource, but if they are what you're using exclusively to make your mind up on the game then you're not get a clear picture of what's going on.

greybeard wrote:

Notch wrote:You don't need stats to back up an opinion; you can watch a game and form an opinion before the stats come out.

Unfortunately it seems many like to skip the middle man and form an opinion before the game!

That is very, very true.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:
Stats can be useful but people are making their comments based on what the see in games. SOB will have to cover defensively for rog. This might not be born out in the stats but people will be able to see it at defensive lineouts where sob will stand at 10. This is what wallace does for munster and ireland. If sexton was playing, he would stay at 10. This is a fact that stats won't back up because their is no detail in stats.

So whats the big deal about where SOB stands? He has to stand somewhere!

Yes he has to stand somewhere but instead he gets moved to accomodate rog. It also impacts on the speed a counter attack can be launched if Ireland manage to steal the lineout as instead of the ball being thrown to the outhalf it goes to a backrower, and as good a player as sob is, he isn't as good at passing the ball as rog.

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I wonder how many test caps O'Driscoll will finish up on. Lions caps count which puts him on 118. He'll very soon be 2nd on the all time list behind Gregan who's on 139. Could O'Driscoll reach that?

He's already the highest 5/6 Nations try scorer of all time. He's the only non-back three player in the all time test tries top ten. He must be one of the most capped test captains to.

What a legend. He's been so good that I don't think there's even any stats that suggest a Munster center was better than him.

Hopefully he will be the 2nd Irish captain to win World Player of the Year AND a Lions Test Series. He won't be able to beat Woody's World Try Scoring record (15 international trys) for a hooker though

(PS - against Wales when Earls Partnered BOD in the centre 2 years ago, BOD missed two tackles and Earls didn't miss any.

Good comeback. Dammit Sin you have an answer for everything.

Notch wrote:

Oh yeah, but there's a lot of misinterpretation of statistics going on on this site. A tackle made/missed can only tell you so much for instance, I think funnyExiledScot made that point very well recently. Seeing how many passes a player made is fairly meaningless without knowing what those passes led to. And so on. And the stats on a site like ESPN scrum.com are nowhere near as accurate as the official statistics that aren't really in the public domain.

I've seen people make incredibly insightful points on forums without ever needing to refer to statitistics and I've seen people try and use statistics to justify ludicrous arguments. Don't get too hung up on stats. They are a useful resource, but if they are what you're using exclusively to make your mind up on the game then you're not get a clear picture of what's going on.

Well said Notch. A few stats to support a point or argument is one thing but you can't base an entire argument on a load of stats without any context. The stats on their own are meaningless especially if they are being cherrypicked to enforce a particular point of view.

Also just looking at the pictures today, Jennings seems to be back in contact but is fairly heavily strapped so probably not ready for a match yet. On the other hand earls has no strapping at all. I can't remember the last time he was playing without some sort of injury. The prospect of a fully fit earls with a proper preseason for the first time in a few years is very good. Can't wait for the game.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:
Stats can be useful but people are making their comments based on what the see in games. SOB will have to cover defensively for rog. This might not be born out in the stats but people will be able to see it at defensive lineouts where sob will stand at 10. This is what wallace does for munster and ireland. If sexton was playing, he would stay at 10. This is a fact that stats won't back up because their is no detail in stats.

So whats the big deal about where SOB stands? He has to stand somewhere!

Yes he has to stand somewhere but instead he gets moved to accomodate rog. It also impacts on the speed a counter attack can be launched if Ireland manage to steal the lineout as instead of the ball being thrown to the outhalf it goes to a backrower, and as good a player as sob is, he isn't as good at passing the ball as rog.

First things first, secure the ball IF you manage to steal it in a defensive lineout.

Surely the ball would go to the scrumhalf anyway, who should be able to pass to O'Gara and so wouldn't be dependent on SOB's poor passing ability!

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I wonder how many test caps O'Driscoll will finish up on. Lions caps count which puts him on 118. He'll very soon be 2nd on the all time list behind Gregan who's on 139. Could O'Driscoll reach that?

He's already the highest 5/6 Nations try scorer of all time. He's the only non-back three player in the all time test tries top ten. He must be one of the most capped test captains to.

What a legend. He's been so good that I don't think there's even any stats that suggest a Munster center was better than him.

Hopefully he will be the 2nd Irish captain to win World Player of the Year AND a Lions Test Series. He won't be able to beat Woody's World Try Scoring record (15 international trys) for a hooker though

(PS - against Wales when Earls Partnered BOD in the centre 2 years ago, BOD missed two tackles and Earls didn't miss any.

Good comeback. Dammit Sin you have an answer for everything.

Happy to oblige