Wales first team. Anyone know, because gatland doesn't!

by manofgwent Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well well. Another defeat looks on the cards on Saturday. I really cannot believe that we are exactly 1 month from our opening WC group game and I don't think our coach has a clue of his strongest tram. He i's being hampered by injuries to some key players, but I now feel warren gatland will pay the price for not putting a squad together.
Hook starts at 15!!! What? Hasn't that experiment failed before?
10. Priestland. Good player. Only his 2nd start.
Is faletau now considered our first choice 8. When he's only got 2 caps.
Our team seems a mixture of talented, inexperienced players and out of form players.
If Matthew Rees doesn't come back. Will Lloyd burns be our first choice. His first start will be on Saturday.

I can see England doing a job on us this Saturday and that will lead to a team low on confidence and our inept coach not having a clue what our strongest team are.
3 wins in the last year. 3 in 14 games. Make that 3 in 15 games.

by manofgwent Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Rucking flanker.
I'm not sure people mean physically weak.
Charteris i's a huge guy, but he's not necessarily more physical than Bradley Davies.
I think when people say our front 5 are weak. They mean. Our hooker has never started for Wales before and you can pick any combination of charteris, Davies and AW jones and they're much of a muchness. Nothing between them. They're just decent internationals and I haven't seen any evidence to suggest otherwise.
I'm seriously worried that Adam, gethin and Rees may not be fit for the WC.

On alyn's comments. I'm delighted to see 4 dragons start. I'm just disappointed that it's taken so long.

by bedfordwelsh Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:55 pm

mog,

Like you I think some players are more injured than the management are (rightly I suppose) making out.

But for me it is CRUCIAL that Jenkins Rees and Jones start next week.

by RuckingFlanker86 Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:56 pm

Maybe weak was the wrong way to put it, I mean when people say lightweight e.g someone mentioned lack of power in the scrum. There is a seriously noticeable difference in the Dragons scrum when Charteris is missing.

by bedfordwelsh Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:57 pm

Luke will def add his weight in the scrum more so than Davies IMO but I don't think he is a big a threat around the park as Davies

by RuckingFlanker86 Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:59 pm

Disagree, he makes alot of yards and he's always one of the top tacklers. Am I right in thinking that he made the most across both teams during the Baa Baa's game?

by manofgwent Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:04 pm

Taffineastbourne.
Remember when Wales beat Italy in 2009. The Wales on Sunday gave charteris an average review and the western mail made him MOM for being Wales top tackler. Like lydiate (who was again Wales top tackler last week) he does a lot of graft. He i's under rated. I can already see his score in the Wales on Sunday. 5. I do think our 2nd row is pretty average, but for some reason Bradley (butter fingers) Davies and the horse are pretty much everyones first choice. That's been Wales problem. The same faces being selected and now we're in a mess.
As I mentioned earlier. Deiniol jones and gough played against Fiji in the autumn. No wonder we are left with just 3 2nd row forwards to choose from. ( I can't include sideways as a 2nd row).

by glamorganalun Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:05 pm

M Rees with a bulging disc is unlikely to play without risk to himself. I suspect WG is giving our front row as much time as possible before the start of the RWC. It does seem as if the pubic are being duped that players are fit when they are not, is it the training that is doing more harm than good?

I was hoping to see a stronger team this week but injuries are already taking it's toll; S Jones, Stoddart and R Jones from the first game and two games to go! We are told the Jones's will be OK for the RWC!

by flyhalffactory Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:07 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:I think Priestland forced a change of thought last weekend at ten given how well he played. Likewise Burns needs to have a start if Rees and Hibbard are injury worries.

I think Toby is now our first choice 8 and he would have had game time in the 6n if he hadnt had an injury. Although I would like to see Delve.

This is our best team imo and I think pretty damn close to gats team.

1. Gethin, G Jenkins
2. Rees, M Rees
3.Adam Jones, A Jones
4. AWJ, L Charteris
5. Bradley R Jones
6. Lydiate, D Lydiate
7. Warburton , S Warburton
8. Faletau, G Delve
9. Phillips, M Phillips
10. James Hook, S Jones
11. Shane, S Williams
12. Henson, J Davies
13. Roberts, J Roberts
14. Halfpenny, G North
15. Byrne, R Priestland

16. Paul James I Thomas
17. Hibbard, Hibbard
18. Ryan Jones, B Davies
19. Gareth Delve, Faletua
20. Lloyd Wiliams, Knoyle
21. Rhys Priestland. Halfpenny
22 George North, Scott Williams

Now people are gonna scream because there is no stephen Jones, but honestly this season Ive been more impressed with the scarlets when priestland has been at 10 than wellies. I do think Steven should go to the WC but the competition for the ten jersey has certainly opened up since the first warm up. Thats the point of selecting Hook for this next match at full back. If Priestland does the business again against England he may well go to the World Cup as first choice outside half.

If he does win the 10 jersey what then do you do with Hook? You play your FORM players, so that leaves Hook out certainly he could be on the bench to cover four positions and that could be a good option, however he is clearly our most gifted runner in broken play (Shane is not quite what he was) so you want him on the pitch. Roberts JD2 and Henson unless Henson does the business this weekend then you have to include Scott Williams who played well last week in not his familiar position are set for the centre and Im quite excited about those three being used there so Hook to full back is a logical option. Hooks problem is his versatility hopefully his time in France will allow him to mature into a really top quality OH He might well end up as a centre there no guarantee he will play 10, might start there!!.

Honestly I think we are about to see one of the most talented groups of players go to a world cup from Wales. Niggly injuries have hampered selection a little bit and Priestlands rise couldnt have been predicted but he deserves the chance to prove it wasnt a flash in the pan last week Agree.

by flyhalffactory Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:08 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Luke will def add his weight in the scrum more so than Davies IMO but I don't think he is a big a threat around the park as Davies

I thought Charteris was all over the place against the BaaBaas and he played better than AWJ last week

by Taffineastbourne Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:19 pm

MoG,Luke is a victim of tall poppy syndrome!Because he is a "giant" he has unreallistic expectations put upon him.I am a tad biased as I am a lanky individual and a Dragons fan(from Abertillery) but I see what has gone on and it just isnt right.
Brad Davies looked the biz when he got his chance but has not done much since,ditto AWJ.For some reason these 2 are held up as certs and for the life of me I cannot see why.Does 1/2 good games for Wales book your passage?Mind you it seemed to work pretty well for Jonathan Thomas!
My first choice second row would be LC and RJ as they have shown the best form.An old fashioned concept,I grant you.

by manofgwent Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:52 pm

Taff. Fully agree. The only thing I'm not sure about i's Ryan jones in the 2nd row. I's he an 8, 6 or lock? He gives his all for Wales. I'd see him more of a 6, but not ahead of lydiate.

by Taffineastbourne Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:04 pm

MoG,I feel that Ryan is too slow for the backrow but is fine for 2nd row.He does give his all and I can forgive many faults in a player that so clearly does this.
If I can watch a Welsh team performance where everyone has given everything that does it for me.I then look at the scoreboard and see where it has got us.If it was good enough to win,great.If it wasnt,then we look to improve by coaching or different selection.

by rumpelstiltskindoh Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:44 pm

Your OP was spot on, MoG.

Saturday is going to be grisly.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:15 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:Totallybiased,I have tried hard to think of a second row forward that has played better than Charteris has over the last 12 months in Wales and that list is blank.
Some peoples' 1st picks,AWJ and Brad Davies have been far from outstanding whilst Charteris has had a few MoM performances.Press hype and actual performances are miles apart.
Charteris might not be nasty but he gets around the park and puts the tackles in.Much underrated by the tabloids but good judges like Mike Ruddock and myself can see what he offers!

Everyone is misunderstanding me here - I said he doesn't have much grunt and I've not seen him replicate his Dragons lineout prowess for Wales. I'm with MOG on this one. We need a strong powerful enforcer type lock in the pack. AWJ and Charteris are athletic and mobile and offer a lot in the loose and Davies is a bit more of a carrier, a bit more physical but we just ain't got what I'd describe as a genuine boilerhouse lock. Ian Evans is the closest but is only now coming back from injury. Given how our front row fared against england, that Matty Rees looks a major doubt for the RWC and given that we still concede a lot of turnovers I personally wouldn't be averse to giving the Ospreys a bell and asking the question "So, Ian Evans then - how's the old knee holding up?"

If Charteris were in better form than AWJ then by all means swap them around but they don't go well together as a scrummaging lock pair. Even if Evans could give us a 50 min showing it'd be worth it. If the scrum and lineout are weak we can forget getting any decent possession and if we've got guys who struggle to impose themselves in the loose then we won't get continuity there either. We might as well treat it as tackling practice.

by RuckingFlanker86 Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:22 pm

I'd like to see Charteris and Davies have a game together, though do think Ryan Jones and Luke against the Baa Baa's was one of the best second row performances for Wales in quite a while. Both were everywhere.

by Shifty Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:56 pm

gcBlues wrote:Just thankful Bennett isn't starting

99.9% of the time I would agree with you, but he was outstanding last week to be fair.

by flyhalffactory Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:33 pm

I have said it well before that BaaBaas game you second row should be

4 L Charteris
5 R Jones

Its twice I have seen R Jones perform better than AW Jones in a Welsh jersey and with Charteris its a better balance

by flyhalffactory Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:38 pm

gcBlues wrote:Just thankful Bennett isn't starting

You didnt watch the match then

Bennett was outstanding

by Totallybiasedscarlet Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:49 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
gcBlues wrote:Just thankful Bennett isn't starting

You didnt watch the match then

Bennett was outstanding

Woa there ... outstanding is a strong word. He had a good game. He's usually appalling.

by Taffineastbourne Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:30 pm

Bennett was good in the loose and his throwing-in was much better than usual.I still would not want him in Eastbourne 2nds!!!!!!!!

by manofgwent Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:47 pm

One thing I'll say about our line out. Why on our own line do we not throw a short line out to our front jumper who just takes the ball in, resulting in us clearing our lines??? Whoever made the call and the combination of Bennett's throw and AWJ's only being able to slap the ball down led to haskell's try.
Any opposition coach watching that will be rubbing their hands. Especially SA.

by Taffineastbourne Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:55 pm

Along the same line,why do we NEVER compete on the oppo throw-in anywhere on the pitch??So ften we kick to touch,gain good ground and allow a free line-out take.Makes me mad.

by glamorganalun Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:12 pm

Taffineast:

100% with you on that point it drives me mad, I suspect we would do the same against Japan!

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