Murray/Novak the difference

Murray fans an interesting difference I saw, both had similar starts to their first match. Both were rusty, both were playing tricky opponents, and both opponents jumped all over them putting them under threat from the very beginning. But here is where the similarities end. Andy got very negative and very passive, moping around with this "whoa is me look". Novak just smiled, acknowledged Davydenko's performance and from being double break down he held it together knowing that Davy is a streak player. Early in the match Djokovic for some reason was hitting a great deal to the Davy backhand, and Davy was just flat murdering the ball off of his lethal two hander. Instead of doing what Murray did and playing the rest of the match from 8 feet behind the baseline Djokovic figured out what he was doing wrong, made an in match adjustment and started to work the ball to Davy's forehand putting that wing under pressure. And he took every opportunity to attack the second serve to try to rattle Davy. This subtle but important mid-match change resulted in him winning the first set after being down double break and winning the match easily. I have seen Murray before in midmatch change gears like against Gazza at wimby, but usually when pressured by an opponent he falls back on playing passively and moping around with negative body language. Andy knows the game, he has the tactical mind and the ability, but too often he reverts to what he finds comfortable in a match and that is just to sit back and wait for his opponent to miss. Two talented players who are now veterans, Murray did not adjust or find away to win the match when he wasn't playing well, but Djoko found away to turn the tide. I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of Murray fans.

I think you are right in that with Murray - in the important moments - his default setting is to 'not lose' the point. It has affected him in the biggest moments of his career, for example when he had the chance to go a break up in the first set against Federer in the 2010 AO final, and when he could (and should) have won the third set.

The result was a 3-0 defeat, and an alleged hammering... Whereas the truth is he was only reallu outplayed in the second set, but he just didn't go for it enough with the chances that he had in the first and third.

The irony is that he has occasionally got the balance wrong the other way too. Against Nadal at SW19 this year he was tremendous for a set and a half and ultra aggressive. He then misses a chance to take control of the second set, misses it and for some inexplicable reason his game fell apart... Yet he kept going for winners, and Nadal raced away on his unforced errors.

The best I've seen him hit that balance was in Toronto last season, when he beat Rafa and Fed back to back with controlled aggression and positive pro-active play.. And against Nadal in the 2010 AO quarter final.

The facts is when comparing Djokovic and Murray is that a gap has opened, not in terms of what they both 'can' do, but in terms of what they are delivering. A year ago, nothing between them really. Now Djokovic looks a bit fitter than Murray (than anyone actually), more pro-active, more mentally well balanced and WAY more confident.

Watching the Monfils match last night was a treat, Djoko was just sensational. His confidence was almost tangible. The way he has raised his level is impressive, but it all stems from that Davis cup win in my opinion. The belief he got from that has just grown and grown.

Can Murray replicate it? Well, you can't say it's impossible as Djoko has proved it can be done. The problem is the only way I can see him gaining that confidence to really come out of himself is winning a slam. Federer won his first against Philippoussis, Nadal against Puerta and Djokovic against Tsonga... Murray is not going to get that luxury. Don't get me wrong, all good players but should he reach more slam finals - which I think he will - he will more than likely have to beat a fantastic player rather than the good players the others had to overcome.

I thought the US open was open to any of the top 4, and maybe Del Potro too... But having watched last nights match, if Djoko plays that well against anyone he will win. The others can only hope he's peaked too early, but that might be clutching at straws.

Great points Dany, I agree Andy has the tools to win a grandslam. But like you his default setting when put under pressure usually seems to be to revert back to his defensive posture and to not lose the point. I remember when murray made a push all the way to the #2 ranking, back then he was hitting the forehand very flat and aggressively whenever he got the opportunity. So while I don't think he has the forehand of the other top 3, when he is in the mood and willing to attack he can do damage with that wing consistently. Personally, I feel like his biggest weakness right now is that he is holding on to tight and putting to much pressure on himself. As soon as things don't go right he seems to want to wait for the opponent to lose the point instead of finding a way to win the points on his own racquet. Djokovic relies on his defense as well, but when he sees an opening to attack he lets fly with the forehand, he doesn't hesitate once he gets that mid court ball to hit a consequential shot.

Murray's forehand is a weapon that can hurt anyone when he leans into it. It was the shot that beat Rafa and Fed in Toronto and won him the title. The difference between his forehand and the other top guys is that they can rip winners or transition to attack on the forehand when on the back foot. Murray's forehand, when in defensive positions, doesn't do that. He leans back and loops it. Can be very effective if his opponent has come forward, but if not it often results in a midcourt ball with a sticker on that reads 'hit me'.

Annoyingly, I don't think it's a technical issue (would be far easier to forgive if it was) it's again a lack of belief that he can cause damage from those positions.

That in a nutshell is what makes watching Murray absolutely fascinating and frustrating in equal measure. He can actually do pretty much everything, and mixed with his imagination (which is unrivalled in my opinion) he should be a multi-slam winner already. He just either doesn't do it consistently or - as stated in this thread - chooses not to do it.

Has there ever been such a player with so many attacking attributes, who - through choice or fear of of losing - doesn't use them?

"Annoyingly, I don't think it's a technical issue (would be far easier to forgive if it was) it's again a lack of belief that he can cause damage from those positions."

of course it is. hence the lack of confidence.

Nole - Completely disagree. I believe it's Murray's safety first approach as discussed above, rather than him not being able to do it for any technical reason.

Danny_1982 wrote:Nole - Completely disagree. I believe it's Murray's safety first approach as discussed above, rather than him not being able to do it for any technical reason.

Whatever the reason, his forehand is not a weapon as it is for Federer, Nadal and Nole. Forehand is such a natural attacking shot, and Murray manages to somehow turn it into a I-m-hitting-it-cause-I-have-to mess it up. He clearly dislikes hitting it. I think the problem IS technical as it is just darn sloppy for a guy of his talent; just compare it to his backhand, slice and soft hands, you'll see how far behind his forehand actually fares. With the other top players the gap is either non-existant or negligent; Noleisthebest because he's managed to close the gap and make both shots a wapon, scary! Did you watch his match against Monfils last night?

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Yes I watched the Monfils match. Djokovic was oustanding in every department.

When Murray hurt his ankle at the French open and was struggling to move, he realised he had to shorten the points and just started hammering winners off both wings. Against Nadal in the first set at Wimbledon, he was attacking Nadal again and again off both wings.

It's in his head in my opinion, just like in Djokovic's head right now he is almost unbeatable. Djokovic took apart Nadal on clay twice this season, and Nadal had no answer... But a year ago Djokovic wasn't going into a match with Nadal on clay convinced he was going to win.

Murray is nowhere near as confident in attacking as the guys above him, and that's the difference in my opinion. Not through him lacking anything technically. So have to agree to disagree on that one.

Dany, to a certain extent I have to disagree with you. I don't find the murray forehand that convincing. I actually do find that his forehand even when not on the run has some problems. 1. He doesn't seem to use enough of his legs and enough shoulder rotation with forehand as consistently as Nadal, Fed, and Djoko. To hit a good forehand you really want to if you have the time to get sidewise and open your sholders rapidly bringing your swing across your body. This results in two scenarios he hits the balls safe, and it comes out loopy with just spin on it. If he goes for it he has to hit it very flat which when he is off it will cause him to hit a lot of errors. Players who use good rotation and leg drive in their forehand can hit the ball both with a lot of spin and with a lot of pace on the same shot. Murray, not always he can hit great forehands don't get me wrong, but murray doesn't have that consistent heavy fastball. The ball that has both spin, pace, and depth in the same forehand.

But, conversly murray has plenty of weapons. I agree on this point of yours that the cupboard is full in terms of attacking talent. He has good volleys, is aggressive on the returns, a great backhand. His forehand as well when he is flattening out well can be very dangerous. Although I think he could use some retooling on the forehand.

Murray does not have a peaceful mind, the best thing he could do when the opponent starts making big shots, is not talk to himself, just smile and move on... but instead he has an attitude of "i should have done this, what an idiot i am!".

Andy is just a guy who is far too sensitive when things are going against him.. this will continue throughout his career, much like it did with Safin!

+1 Josiah.

I think he has low self-esteem (not to be confused with low confidence or even an ego). He appears worried about what people watching are thinking, this can only be because he is unhappy with himself.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Murray does not have a peaceful mind, the best thing he could do when the opponent starts making big shots, is not talk to himself, just smile and move on... but instead he has an attitude of "i should have done this, what an idiot i am!".

Andy is just a guy who is far too sensitive when things are going against him.. this will continue throughout his career, much like it did with Safin!

Agree, he defintely needs to stop talking to himself. If he felt better out there he could just did what Novak does when someone is playing at a high level, smile acknowledge their play and look for ways to bring your opponent out of the comfort zone.