Last nights SA vs Oz 3N match. 2nd viewing still can't believe it

Maybe its me but even after the second viewing I still can't believe that match was effectively the second and third best teams in the world- 'A' selections as well.

I'd picked a huge win to SA because of the way they took time out and prepared for this match and the quality of the players selected. I thought Oz would be too hesitant to throw everything out on the table and in doing so would be punished by very experienced SA team.

Without reading any reports I must say I was astounded at the quality of the skills on display from both sides. Appeciate the weather played a part particularly at the end but from what I saw SA has made zero progress from last year, and that wasnt a lot to do with oz, who were equally off on the night.

The number of dropped balls- not all due to a greasy ball- was amazing. It just kept happening all night. Smit just cannot keep getting away with delivering such substandard perfomances and generally all were off their game. Bismarck DP really stood out for me and showed the type of intensity required. Some were ok- Spies and Du Preez did some useful stuff but overall where was the fire, the fitness and the intensity? From either side!

All I can suggest for next week is pdv start making wholesale changes and it seems Smit has a WCup threatening injury (I would have called it form but apparently its his arm). In hindsight those experienced players should have toured Oz and NZ to prove their fitness and standard, the reasons being left behind now completely without substance.

Oz werent a lot better but did seem to be doing just enough- especially when SA just fell of the intensity- lack of fitness looking like the main reason.

Love to know what others think but based on that performance I don't like SA's chances at all. Oz werent a lot better but theres this horrible 'AB's only have to turn up' feeling swelling yet again, and based on that match I can see why it happens.

Truly an awful match...

Taylorman
Actually I didnt think it was all that bad, That drizzly rain had IMO quite some bearing on the mistakes, But a couple of things that were going through my mind were:
Rocky Elsom really looked like he was showing what happens when you miss a S.15 season.
Sharpe told Robbie Deans " Dont you ever think of dropping me again"
O'Connor might look like a choir boy ,but he didn't shirk anything when it came to tackling a few big Bok forwards.
Best game I've seen Bakkies play all year.
Cooper attempted more tackles last night than he has all season, Laughed when he went to help the forwards in a breakdown and he got penalised.
All that Springbok team will be all the better for that run last night.
And can anyone tell me what happened in that scrum in about the 70th minute?

Taylor,
Didn't see the match. Was at a 7s competition today with my lads.
But a couple of mates were at the match in Durban and they told me it was pretty dire, especially considering the names playing out there. They told me the locals at the match were beside themselves at many of the players and want PDV sent to St.Helena, Devils Island or Siberia, which ever is easier. I will have a chance to see the replay for myself on Sunday.

wish i watched it

Thanks laurie. Have to admit i kept picturing the thornes, franks etc in tbe same positions and couldnt see then labouring the same way at the breakdowns etc so perhaps rose tints foing on there. Just found it hard to watch thats all.
I thought the first match had more intensity around the park.
Intetesting to see what happens next week.
Who do SA go with now?

Taylorman

I was surprised you made this comment on the other SA OZ game thread and even more surprised there is a separate thread created just to bag the game. Maybe it was because W won the game contrary to be being written off by all and sundry predicting a massive SA win?

Agree too many balls went to ground and on balance W left more balls on the ground from try scoring opps.

It was a good old fashioned extremely tense test match - especially the first it was very aggressive and physical - W showed up yesterday with a huge defense game. Just don't get the comments about no intensity. I think Sa attack might disagree. SA didn't look like scoring.

In their defense, W were slaughtered by Bryce with a 7-1 penalty count in the first half. He left his whistle in his car for the Crusaders Reds final but it seemed he swallowed it yesterday and it went off every time he took a breath. 18 penalties in a game means it was a bit stop start which spoilt the game a bit.

And in fairness the rain in the last 20 made a big impact and the game went that way accordingly.

Thought Genia kicked poorly - these box kicks of his just have to go.

Scrum was good - again.

Agree with someone else who said an away win against SA in SA has to be respected. Silly not to.

Hi rob. Certainly gets oz back on track. I agree there and its an injury free one for them too.
Regardless of next week it comes down to brissy for the title. Win and bonus point next week woild help our cause.
I just expected a lot more from both sides. Firstly and mostly from SA who seem to have got nothing out of not touring and then oz because of the way SA didnt fire. Against a NZ in that SA form oz would have torn through on more occasions than they did so their attack was a little flat. As many have said they won in other areas which theyll be happy with.
The extra post i made as i hadnt realised they change the same post title to pre/ during and post match. I did see it straight after and thought theyd merge it
60 v1 didnt do this so a good idea

W will be better for that - it was a test of character to pick themselves up off the floor from last week and take a win in SA. It could so easily have been a scenario for a heavy defeat. They will be pleased they won in a non traditional way for them - hard graft, defense and a very good scrum. Can't say I remember last time W scrum pushing an SA scrum all over the park like the second half. They will be disappointed with the turnovers and basic handling skills.

Thought AAC must be on his last legs with some poor errors - A Faingaa seemed to make a positive impact - he is incredible in defense in mid field - something absent against the ABs.

Sa will better next week - against a weakened ABs it could be very interesting. Though SA do not look too threatening in attack.

Rob B,I didn`t for cast a large Bok win,thought and stated less than 10 either way.
The Scrum was a mess for both sides,the number of collapses and resets
.only when Smit went to prop did Australia gave much asendency,which was rapidly fixed.
Had the Boks taken the right options they would have won comfortably,
very scrappy and a gritty win for OZ.
All to play for in the last two games,SA looked rusty and short of match fitness. Both sides dropped a lot of ball and RWC is likely to be cold and wet
don`t know where the sides are playing.
Wellington.Invercargill,and Dunedin are a Penguins paradise in winter.

Well its snowing pretty much over the whole country as I type so penguins very happy in NZ.
I didn't see the game but not too surprising for a Aus win (even though I predicted SA). I thought the game was always going to be won or lost on how quickly the people coming back after a long break were going to get into it.
Interesting the next game as SA have a game under their belt while quite a few ABs will have a had little rugby for a while.

Unreal aint it? Its never, ever snowed in Wellington like this and last 24 hours people are making snowmen. This has been one weird and whacky year for mother nature around these parts...

emack2 wrote:Rob B,I didn`t for cast a large Bok win,thought and stated less than 10 either way.
The Scrum was a mess for both sides,the number of collapses and resets
.only when Smit went to prop did Australia gave much asendency,which was rapidly fixed.
Had the Boks taken the right options they would have won comfortably,
very scrappy and a gritty win for OZ.
All to play for in the last two games,SA looked rusty and short of match fitness. Both sides dropped a lot of ball and RWC is likely to be cold and wet
don`t know where the sides are playing.
Wellington.Invercargill,and Dunedin are a Penguins paradise in winter.

Agree it was an unusually scrappy game for W they dropped a lot of possession.

Couldn't really see a scenario whereby SA would have won comfortably - took a couple of bad options, but then again we also could have had a ref that would not have whistled W out the game with a 7- penaly count in the first half and denied them the ability to build any phase play in attack. To be honest it reminded me of 2007 rugby where the side with the ball was severly punished. His premature blowing up of the ruck on Sa's tryline at half time was a howler.

Hi,Rob trouble is lets be honest,most of us are one eyed for our teams.
The referee,ANY referee knows the law far better than us,for example.
I thought Stu Dickesen gave the Reds the vital pool game versus the
Crusaders with his display.
BUT He`s an International REF,like Lawrence you have to believe they know
what they are doing without bias.
The laws in the Ta ckle/Breakdown and the Scrum are so complex,a ref can ping either side for about a dozen offences at every one.
Face it EVERY side in the World try to take l ibertys in both areas,a even money bet for every penalty awarded.
To a side in the area,they got away themselves with twice as many,the laws are now TOO complex RWC suspect they will be fixed.

rob b
You do realise that you have Bryce Lawrence for two of your pool games in the World Cup.......

Well, I have calmed down after that very dissappointing test match.

So here is my objective opinion.

What did SA do, they controlled the match in the first half, they created 3 opportunities to score tries, two knocks and Beast not distributing the ball cost us. There were three very kickable penalties not taken. The defensive lines for the most part worked, one try leaked is not a train smash. PDV made stupid substitutions, moving John Smit to prop has been similar to hitting your head against the wall. It only feels nice when you stop.


The springboks should have won that match, they should have led by more at halftime.

The wallabies gave me the impression in the first twenty that they were out to hurt the Boks, three tip tackles, ok one wasn;t dangerous but the intent was still there. Lucky to only recieve one penalty for that. Quade Cooper played territory well in the second half. Something the Ozzies have been criticised for in the past. That kept them in the game.

Defensively they weren't really tested, SA was far too predictable.

Overall it might be that the Springboks weren't match fit, but then that is the coached fault.

At least it wasn't a hammering, I was never as confident as Taylorman about us winning easily, but I did expect a win, and we should have won.

One thing is clear, there are a number of players in dire need of game time, and hpefully they'll get that in spades during the All Black game and the pool matches.

I actually didn't think there was much wrong with the Boks team selection before this one. Clearly it's the preparation they've had under PDV that's undermining them.

He should stick with that team now, maybe other than a couple of tweaks (good arguments could be made for Bekker, Alberts, Lambie and Basson coming into the squad), and let it gel as a unit. What he mustn't do is tinker with key combinations and fail to let them play together, only then will the players start to find the sort of spontaneity that is sorely needed.

Don't disgree all sides are at fault - so a 7-1 count you have to be asking some questions.

The point about the ruck on the SA tryline was he gave no penalty. He blew the ruck up for a scrum about 0.001 of a second after Beale was tackled, in cicumstances where there were about 4 SA players lined up in defense with the rest still running back. He did not do that in any other ruck in the game. IMO he personally and inexplicably denied the attacking side 7 points. Fortunately it was not a game changer but it could have been crucial in such a tight match.

aucklandlaurie wrote: rob b
You do realise that you have Bryce Lawrence for two of your pool games in the World Cup.......

Yes I saw that including Ireland - which will suit them nicely.

Hi biltong. My confidence was based largely on an assumption. That in pdvs absence the team was able to get some time to work on their areas at fault. Truth is it doesnt matter what you do with them. Theyre largely past it.
Amazing to see your team od 2007 put up.
They practically have the same team now.
Its not even sure that a 2007 wcup side would win the 2011 version with that team as it was the game has changed so much but the same team 4 years on?
Anyway. This has been thrashed so do you see some changes for the AB lite team?
Surely its the right time to start lambie. Against slade. And bismarck?
If they roll out the same geriatrics for this one i would sit back and prepare for some tough pool matches.
Wales samoa etc will be looking to hit SA hard and they just might cause some pain.

Taylorman, look there aren't too many positives to take out of Saturdays match. To make wholesale changes won't benfit anyone, it's too late for that.

PDV has made his bed and must now sleep in it. By hook or by crook these guys will have to do it.

How I am not too sure. At this point the reality is we should still be good enough to get to the semi. I will have to go think about a few things before i give my opinion on how.

Remember even a bad SA team is still usually in the top 3.

biltongbek

If SA are to lose this RWC would you rather they go out with some diginity i.e.a marginal loss to NZ in the SF or would you rather they crashed & burned in either the pools (unlikely) or in the QF (possible)?

Its not an obvious answer given that a SF will probably secure PDV another 2 years in the job.... and seeing how SA Sport is managed (i.e. by corrupt govt. appointed clowns just looking to climb the gravy train) no doubt he will pick up a multi-million rand bonus for doing so... i.e. like the cricket chief who paid himself a R5MM bonus last year.... probably double the amount most of the players got... scandalous.

For the future of SA rugby I would hope they crash & burn..... but its shame how for so many players it will be a last hurrah at the RWC... they deserved better.

I have no doubt SA will make the semi final.

Still a strong side on paper. They have played one game this season and it was a close one.

They will have some tough pool matches but they will be better for them. They should be hitting their straps 2 -3 weeks into RWC - late, but not too late.

I myself think Ireland will upset either Aus or SA at the RWC. Even if they don't beat Aus in the pools (I think they have the game to do so) I believe they have what it takes to take SA's scalp. Either way they would have to play their upmost to do either.

Fa the real question is whether they will keep him irrespective of how the Boks do.

The problem I have as a Springbok supporter is the cloak and dagger bulltwang that goes on behind the scenes. If the government and sports minister is intent to make rugby a political tool and sacrafice performance for transformation at international level, then at least be open about it.

Then I would know where to shift my loyalties, but to keep on hoping that their goal is in synergy with rugby supporters and that is to see the showcase and pride of SA sport be number 1 in the world while it is being undermined by skull duggery is a waste of time, loyalty and energy

I agree with Rob, Sa may look poor now, but the RWc is a different animal all together. It is easy to criticise australia and Sa for the performance on the weekend.

For robbie Deans and his players it was a valuable game in learning how to grind out a win, even if they weren't at their best.


For SA the veterans need to oil those joints over a few games, and come Wales in their opening match, it should be a different performance we see from them.

I wonder whether a coach is really all that important, once the players have been selected, they could decide to do what they believe is best.

Biltong - Some sobering stats for SARU & the govt. then....

Since PDV took over he has given debuts to only 10 ACI players.... 6 less than JW did... whatever happened to his 70 ACI players claim? In a similar number of games too.

Also 17 white south africans played a part in saturday's match (15 Afrikaners, 2 English) against 15 in JW last match (12 Afrikaners, 3 English).

Why was he hired again.... SARU can't be happy with the above?

FA, the way I see it and have said so for many years now.

Force the Vodacom Cup and the Currie Cup to expose non whites. Make it half the team if they so wish.

But when you compete in the super 15 and international rugby you can't do that.

New Zealand is not going to turn around and say, hey send us a few ACI players to level things up.


They will push the advantage and take everything they can out of it.

What happens to all the Craven week players?

One more thing, if the demographics of SA is such that only 20% of the players that play rugby is non white, or whatever that stat is how can you demand 60% of them in an international team?

absolutely..... its all about the number of players who play rugby.

Rugby is quite popular in Zimbabwe amongst Africans and hence... they have produced quite a few number of decent players... Beast, Mujati, Chavanga, Ngwenya.. all of whom current play. You don't see that quality in SA's African community... because they don't play the game.

Potentially a decent idea about vodacom cup... perhaps 5 players... WP would find it easy given the amount of talented coloured players in the cape.... everyone else though would struggle.

Schoolboy rugby is very different though... kids grow at different ages and some that are Craven week standard at 16 may be overtaken come university. Pace is a massive advantage at that level.

fa0019 wrote:absolutely..... its all about the number of players who play rugby.

Well good luck explaining that equation to the sports minister.

I'd have enough trouble trying to make the SA Sports minister understand any basic equation let alone the above! Eish!

I would think it shouldn't be to difficult to make him understand that 20 = 20

and that 20 does not equal 60, but then it is not that he doesn't understand, he doesn't care.

If he said the sky from now on will be red, then so it will be. Because he is in power.

As long as they can get their annual performance bonuses from SA Sport (courtesy of the infrastructure & tickets sold by the predominately white support) I doubt they will get too vocal.

Then again.. that r5MM bonus the cricket chief got last year could have been spent on scholarships for 50 promising kids from socially deprived areas.

Yeah, the is just getting thicker.

Interesting chat gents. One point i will disagree with is not needing a coach.
For us theres no way we would be have done what we have without a coach or specifically GH. We may have had different results, even better or worse results but without GH we wouldnt have had THOSE results such is our coaches influence on our game. Same with pdv.

But i see what you mean.part of the coaches job is selecting the right team so the team has already lost matches it might not have and will continue to do so for that reason.

But the team more or less did that last year. Tried to find their own way. So you might be right in that they might not need a coach. But for that to work he needs to actually not be there.

I just think it comes down to one simple thing.
Pdv is past it and up to 50% of this team is past it. You cant expect to win on that basis.

I think confidence in your fellow players and your coach is certainly important in rugby & all team sport.

If the direction is skewed, if the players are going one way and the coaching the other than I'm sure the results would be pretty bad.

You often see it in the Premier League as club managers often change when results are going the desired way. Often when the club hires a good established coach the team gets a lift in morale and irons out any obvious problems in the side. The difference can be pretty oustanding... one minute their down, next minute their challenging the very best... just think Liverpool last season.

In terms of GH I reckon NZ rugby would have been far worse without him. NZ already had the talent but he certainly gave your forwards some steel that it had lost after the Fitzpatricks & Robin Brookes of this world left the national setup.

I'm not a fan of his, thought he messed up the lions in 01 giving preferential treatment to his Welsh players (they made up the 2nd largest contingent of players after England even though they came last in the six nations out of ENG, IRE, SCO & WAL)...

nevertheless his record outside of RWC with NZ has been outstanding.... just a question if he can take home the prize this time around.

Yep. Good points.
That lions tour keeps coming back to bite him.
Still think if they had won that last lineout theyd have scored and won that series.
But his record with kiwi teams i agree is first rate. Ever since the 80s with aukld.
This week brings a very raw but exciting backline in with kahui toeava dagg- our young invalids back. With guilford and slade a very young lot. Interrsted to see how whitelock goes against matfield to