Surprising players who have never been Lions

Hello, first post here, thought this might be interesting. Mike Tindall has never represented the Lions. Peter Stringer has never represented the Lions. Same with Chris Paterson. Thats a countries top points scorer, a World Cup winner, 2 Grand Slam medals, 2 Heineken Cup medals at least between them.

Is there anyone else who you are surprised to find out has not been a Lion? This is not a who deserved to be/ who didn't deserve to list. But I think those three players have been around for a long time and have a lot to show for their careers. That they are not Lions is something I was surprised to discover.

Anybody else?

Simon Geoghegan

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

Lions tours take more than 2 wingers at a time.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc2VZb1Fm2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVSpGi7MVDI&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNvmWkiaqyo&feature=related

Thats the beauty of Lions tours - only the very best get to go on them. Unfortunately, Tindall, Stringer and Paterson have never been the "very best". Great servants for their countries all of them, but all a long way down the list when it comes to being the best in their position from the home nations

Surprised Humphreys (the elder, obviously) was never selected for the Lions. Guy was often a genius.

Simon Geoghegan was controversially left out of the '93 tour. In '97 the Lions management kept a place open for him until the last possible minute but he couldn't recover from a toe injury. I think toe problems limited his game time throughout his career. He was definately good enough to play for the Lions though. Just didn't happen.

Pity I cant link the incident where Ieuan Evans strolled over the Irish try line, and Ieuan let Ghegan run up to him only for Ieuan to stick him on his backside, lol.

Yes I agree great player, fast, determined but not as good as Ieuan and Rory. He would of got more than 11 tries for Ireland if he was that good. and before any crap comes out about not scoring chances in the 1990's it's worth pointing out Ieuan won the wooden spoon nearly every year when he was in the Wales team, and still broke Welsh records.

Even Nigel Walker managed to get more tries than Gheogan, having played nearly half as many international games.

AlynDavies wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

I disagree Alyn. I think in his prime Geoghegan was better than either Underwood or Evans. If he'd have played in a better side then he'd have scored tonnes of tries and he was an excellent defender too

I think David Humphreys was unlucky never to get on a Lions tour. A few people thought he might get on the 2005 tour due to him being a Woodward favourite and him being in great form at the time. Alan Quinlan was unlucky to never tour but blew his chance in 2009.

Did Paddy Johns ever make a lions tour?

Geoghegan was supposedly left out because he got on the wrong side of the IRFU and that renowned wing Ian Hunter went instead.

roddersm wrote:I disagree Alyn. I think in his prime Geoghegan was better than either Underwood or Evans. If he'd have played in a better side then he'd have scored tonnes of tries and he was an excellent defender too

I think David Humphreys was unlucky never to get on a Lions tour. A few people thought he might get on the 2005 tour due to him being a Woodward favourite and him being in great form at the time. Alan Quinlan was unlucky to never tour but blew his chance in 2009.

Did Paddy Johns ever make a lions tour?

Exactly my point about Geoghegan... Ireland normally finished above Wales in the 5 Nations. So Ieuan theoretically played in a worse International team, yet still managed to break records and become a Lion. In fact Wales couldn't beat Ireland at home between 1983 and 2005!
As I said, even Nigel Walker scored more tries than Geoghegan and didn't nearly get as many caps either.

I agree about David Humphreys though, quality player and a pain in the backside. He really hated Wales, lol.

Might as well throw a few names in:

Peter Stringer
Anthony Foley
Chris Paterson

AlynDavies wrote:
Exactly my point about Geoghegan... Ireland normally finished above Wales in the 5 Nations. So Ieuan theoretically played in a worse International team, yet still managed to break records and become a Lion. In fact Wales couldn't beat Ireland at home between 1983 and 2005!
As I said, even Nigel Walker scored more tries than Geoghegan and didn't nearly get as many caps either.

Walker was a real speedster. I think Geoghegan's lack of tries may have been down to the way Ireland played(or didn't) at the time. I remember reading an interview were he said he got more touches of the ball in a single game with Bath than he did in an entire season with Ireland. Evans record was exceptional in a poor Wales side but I'm convinced Geoghegan is one of the best players I've seen in an Irish shirt and was the best winger in the 5N around 94-95.

I've no doubt Geoghegan would have been on the 97 tour if it wasn't for injury wrecking his career.

Kevin Maggs, Phil De Glanville and Kyran Bracken.

He runs like A Demented Bambi says Bill - Classic - Geoghan in full flight was a sight to behold

roddersm wrote:[Walker was a real speedster. I think Geoghegan's lack of tries may have been down to the way Ireland played(or didn't) at the time. I remember reading an interview were he said he got more touches of the ball in a single game with Bath than he did in an entire season with Ireland. Evans record was exceptional in a poor Wales side but I'm convinced Geoghegan is one of the best players I've seen in an Irish shirt and was the best winger in the 5N around 94-95.

I've no doubt Geoghegan would have been on the 97 tour if it wasn't for injury wrecking his career.

Ah well i will let you win the 1994-1995 season issue because that was the year Ieuan broke his leg and missed nearly every game of the tournament. so yes with Ieuan not there, Simon may have indeed looked like the best winger :P

Another name you could add is Mike Rayer, he was an awesome player in my opinion.

David Leslie, injured in 77 (probably would have made all the difference), only made last 5N game in 80, was the only member of the b-r not to be taken in 83.

Al McHarg, would have even suited today's game.

roddersm wrote:Kevin Maggs, Phil De Glanville and Kyran Bracken.

Yes, my mum didn't get a Lions cap either.

Seriously - none of these three were close to Lions players, although Bracken was called up as a replacement for Rob Howley

Alyn, I'm sure Chris Patterson went on the Woodward tour of New Zealand. In fact I am almost sure he did. Unless I have imagined it.

LordDowlais wrote:Alyn, I'm sure Chris Patterson went on the Woodward tour of New Zealand. In fact I am almost sure he did. Unless I have imagined it.

yeah you imagined it.

Woodward took a look at Paterson in a Baa Baas game I think ahead of the tour, and decided that he wasn't playing well enough to oust Balshaw.

To be fair, Paterson hadn't established himself as the top class kicker he is now at that stage, and was a little on the lightweight side - something he himself has admitted.

I don't actually think there have been too many unlucky Scots in the Lions equation really. Obviously Weir was extremely unlucky in 1997 as he looked a good shout to partner Johnson in the actual tests, and similarly Simon Taylor was extremely unlucky to get injured in 2001 (but both were initally selected for the tour).

Good arguments could have been made for Jason White in both 2001 and 2005 though. Not sure whether he was injured at the appropriate time though.

ML wrote:Thats the beauty of Lions tours - only the very best get to go on them. Unfortunately, Tindall, Stringer and Paterson have never been the "very best". Great servants for their countries all of them, but all a long way down the list when it comes to being the best in their position from the home nations

Tindall would probably have made the 2005 tour to NZ except that he was injured.

I guess Jiffy is the biggest Welsh name of recent years to have never made the Lions due to him turning League that said he did represent GB in that code on many occasions. Also Quinnell, Gibbs and Bateman all played for Lions amnd GB

Shifty wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

He was on the 93 tour but got injured

Jonathan Davies was a shoe in but took the money from league and went north.

Dai Morris one of British rugby's toughest and most talented flankers a shoe in for the 71 and 74 tours but wasn't allowed the time off work.

Wasn't it something to do with his attitude (Geoghegan)??? I mean Richard Wallace went on the 93 Lions tour... i.e. quite possibly one of the worst lions in recent memory.

Mike Tindall was good enough in his peak. Would have got their had it not been for injury in 2005.

Stringer - great for Ireland but simply was never good enough. Who were the 9s in 05? Peel, Dawson and Cusiter right?

Jeff Probyn.... certainly one of the most surprising.

I thought John Barclay in 2009 was robbed by playing in a poor side. At the time he was the superior openside in the UK and I think McGeechan really missed an opportunity there.

Armitage in 2009 also was a mistake. He was by far a better winger than Fitzgerald, Halfpenny, Monye at the time. Goes to show when he starts over all the stars in Toulon how highly they rated him.

Surely Chris Denis Robshaw has to be top of the list......

maestegmafia wrote:

Shifty wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

He was on the 93 tour but got injured

Jonathan Davies was a shoe in but took the money from league and went north.

I read that whilst McGeechan had earmarked him for the tour in the 88 AIs he did really badly (by his own admission) and had a lot of self doubts about even making the tour. Sort of pushed him towards accepting the league offer.

Did Jeff Probyn not get a lions tour??! Well that is a surprise.

Geoghan was a class winger...simple as that!

I dont think Chris Robshaw will make the next tour...and he SHOULD definately have gone on the last one.

rodders wrote: Evans record was exceptional in a poor Wales side but I'm convinced Geoghegan is one of the best players I've seen in an Irish shirt and was the best winger in the 5N around 94-95.

I've no doubt Geoghegan would have been on the 97 tour if it wasn't for injury wrecking his career.

Just to point out that 94-5 is halfway between Lions tours


Personally, at their peak (which was before Geoghegan was at his) I believe Underwood (R) and Ieuan Evans to be a clear step ahead of the Hertforsdshire lad in terms of ability. I also, having seen a lot of both of them from close quarters, believe that Underwood (T) had more ability (and speed) but that Geoghegan probably made more of the ability he had. Of course injury crippled both of the younger men's careers.

That Hunter went to NZ in 93 ahead of Geoghegan was an interesting call. They wanted FB cover? There were worse decisions on that tour though. Peter Wright for example.

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote: Evans record was exceptional in a poor Wales side but I'm convinced Geoghegan is one of the best players I've seen in an Irish shirt and was the best winger in the 5N around 94-95.

I've no doubt Geoghegan would have been on the 97 tour if it wasn't for injury wrecking his career.

Just to point out that 94-5 is halfway between Lions tours


Personally, at their peak (which was before Geoghegan was at his) I believe Underwood (R) and Ieuan Evans to be a clear step ahead of the Hertforsdshire lad in terms of ability. I also, having seen a lot of both of them from close quarters, believe that Underwood (T) had more ability (and speed) but that Geoghegan probably made more of the ability he had. Of course injury crippled both of the younger men's careers.

That Hunter went to NZ in 93 ahead of Geoghegan was an interesting call. They wanted FB cover? There were worse decisions on that tour though. Peter Wright for example.  

Wallace replaced Hunter who was a good all rounder who could play across the backline. He was a big chap (for those days) and had real gas. I can see why McGeechan went for him easily.

How Wallace got ahead of Geoghegan is anyone's guess but I'm sure people have said in previous years posts that his attitude was suspect and he was blacklisted.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Did Jeff Probyn not get a lions tour??! Well that is a surprise.

Geoghan was a class winger...simple as that!

I dont think Chris Robshaw will make the next tour...and he SHOULD definately have gone on the last one.

If you read Brian Moore's autobiography (which I thoroughly recommend) he was livid about the omission of Probyn from the Lions tour in 1993. Peter Wright was selected ahead of him in what was widely regarded as tokenism to make sure there was sufficient Scottish representation. I don't think anyone at the time or now, including Peter Wright, would suggest that Wright was even close to Probyn as a scrummager.

Sad thing is that there was really no need either. There were plenty Scots in the early 90s who were quite justifiably part of the tour.

fa0019 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Shifty wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

He was on the 93 tour but got injured

Jonathan Davies was a shoe in but took the money from league and went north.

I read that whilst McGeechan had earmarked him for the tour in the 88 AIs he did really badly (by his own admission) and had a lot of self doubts about even making the tour. Sort of pushed him towards accepting the league offer.

Wales won the triple crown and only lost to France in the five nations, where JD was in great form.

The WRU pushed Jonathan Davies towards league.

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Shifty wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

He was on the 93 tour but got injured

Jonathan Davies was a shoe in but took the money from league and went north.

I read that whilst McGeechan had earmarked him for the tour in the 88 AIs he did really badly (by his own admission) and had a lot of self doubts about even making the tour. Sort of pushed him towards accepting the league offer.

Wales won the triple crown and only lost to France in the five nations, where JD was in great form.

The WRU pushed Jonathan Davies towards league.

Didn't they lose to someone surprising in late 88... I think Romania or like. I'm sure it was in one of his books, never read but read parts online.

fa0019 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Shifty wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

He was on the 93 tour but got injured

Jonathan Davies was a shoe in but took the money from league and went north.

I read that whilst McGeechan had earmarked him for the tour in the 88 AIs he did really badly (by his own admission) and had a lot of self doubts about even making the tour. Sort of pushed him towards accepting the league offer.

Wales won the triple crown and only lost to France in the five nations, where JD was in great form.

The WRU pushed Jonathan Davies towards league.

Didn't they lose to someone surprising in late 88... I think Romania or like. I'm sure it was in one of his books, never read but read parts online.

The WRU wouldn't listen to Davies very astute and correct (in hindsight) suggestions on modernising the game is Wales to keep up with what he had seen happening in NZ and Australia the previous year.


And the kids today think the WRU are bad, they are nothing compared to the one that forced us from the seventies into the dire situation we were in by the early nineties.

I gather most on hear not old enough to remember that though.

I'm not old enough to remember the 70s or early 80s but I'm happy to verify that Wales were indeed utterly dire in the 90s

(although a massive thanks for 1999!)

Chris Robshaw and Kelly Brown?

They lost to Romania yes, but Romania were pretty decent in those days. They beat Wales a few years before that, beat France a couple of times, Scotland a couple of times and came pretty close against NZ. If only the 5N blazers had let them in we could be seeing a 7N tournament now.

Romania had two tries disallowed that would have seen them beat the All Blacks. They were a great rugby nation.

Wasnt the Romania team backed by their army then...and just full of monster soldiers.

Yeah they beat France a few times too.

England had a lot of army chaps too in the 80s-90s.

Archer, Underwood, Rodber, Carling

and they loved the odd copper too... Richards, Dooley, Bayfield, Ackford

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Shifty wrote:

greybeard wrote:Simon Geoghegan

Not sure about that he was up against Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans, lol.
Good player don't get me wrong but no where near their level.

How about Jonathan Davies

He was on the 93 tour but got injured

Jonathan Davies was a shoe in but took the money from league and went north.

I read that whilst McGeechan had earmarked him for the tour in the 88 AIs he did really badly (by his own admission) and had a lot of self doubts about even making the tour. Sort of pushed him towards accepting the league offer.

Wales won the triple crown and only lost to France in the five nations, where JD was in great form.

The WRU pushed Jonathan Davies towards league.

Didn't they lose to someone surprising in late 88... I think Romania or like. I'm sure it was in one of his books, never read but read parts online.

The WRU wouldn't listen to Davies very astute and correct (in hindsight) suggestions on modernising the game is Wales to keep up with what he had seen happening in NZ and Australia the previous year.


And the kids today think the WRU are bad, they are nothing compared to the one that forced us from the seventies into the dire situation we were in by the early nineties.

I gather most on hear not old enough to remember that though.

I remember this, Wales went down to New Zealand on tour and they opened the eyes of the Welsh team, with regards to training, diets and the what not, Jiffy told the WRU that they needed to go pro, for this they tarred and feathered him, as a result we lost a whole generation to rugby league, I also remember his interview on the bridge with the stadium in the background as the WRU would not let him have a proper interview at any of the grounds or the Arms Park, I do think that people should remember how the old guard who were running things, what should be remembered though, is that there was talk that they used to pick the team as well, they would not let the coaches do it, they would want their favourites playing.

fa0019 wrote:Yeah they beat France a few times too.

England had a lot of army chaps too in the 80s-90s.

Archer, Underwood, Rodber, Carling

and they loved the odd copper too... Richards, Dooley, Bayfield, Ackford

RAF.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wasnt the Romania team backed by their army then...and just full of monster soldiers.

Yes, also the Romanian dictator at the time was a massive rugby fan, the sad thing is though, that all the pro rugby players got killed in the Romanian civil war fighting for the dictator Nicolae Ceaușescu.

LordDowlais wrote: I do think that people should remember how the old guard who were running things, what should be remembered though, is that there was talk that they used to pick the team as well, they would not let the coaches do it, they would want their favourites playing.

They weren't the only ones.

The RFU through the 70s/80s/90s were a complete shambles. Not that much better after that either really and only just in recent times starting to become a half decently run organisation.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I do think that people should remember how the old guard who were running things, what should be remembered though, is that there was talk that they used to pick the team as well, they would not let the coaches do it, they would want their favourites playing.

They weren't the only ones.

The RFU through the 70s/80s/90s were a complete shambles. Not that much better after that either really and only just in recent times starting to become a half decently run organisation.

Wasn't Cooke the first full time coach... in 1990 or whenever???

NZ and SA were not pro in those days. They had jobs.... but they did get additional support via expenses and conditioning was very important. Outside of the farmers like Os Du Randt most places were more than happy for chaps to get time off for training... I mean they were the boks afterall.

I recall reading about Jonno in those days mind. Came back form 3 wks off with England then asked for a further 6 wks for the 93 lions tour. Not all had the same luxuries, some couldn't tour many got into professions which would give them generous allowances. I think the diff came with the conditioning and training which whilst amateur was seen as very important.

Many in SA still have jobs... most go through university at least. Some still train as articles clerks and we have the odd medic now and again and you always have the rare farmer like Willem Alberts still around.

I guess the man in the news today Steffon Armitage certainly had/has the ability but would Gats have chosen him even if he had been playing for England?

Not with SOB and Warburton in the squad.

fa0019 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I do think that people should remember how the old guard who were running things, what should be remembered though, is that there was talk that they used to pick the team as well, they would not let the coaches do it, they would want their favourites playing.

They weren't the only ones.

The RFU through the 70s/80s/90s were a complete shambles. Not that much better after that either really and only just in recent times starting to become a half decently run organisation.

Wasn't Cooke the first full time coach... in 1990 or whenever???

Yes he was our first full time coach, though some way behind other countries. However he had to fight tooth and nail to select the squad he wanted at times. Many of us will remember the 57 old farts too.

fa0019 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I do think that people should remember how the old guard who were running things, what should be remembered though, is that there was talk that they used to pick the team as well, they would not let the coaches do it, they would want their favourites playing.

They weren't the only ones.

The RFU through the 70s/80s/90s were a complete shambles. Not that much better after that either really and only just in recent times starting to become a half decently run organisation.

Wasn't Cooke the first full time coach... in 1990 or whenever???

NZ and SA were not pro in those days. They had jobs.... but they did get additional support via expenses and conditioning was very important. Outside of the farmers like Os Du Randt most places were more than happy for chaps to get time off for training... I mean they were the boks afterall.

I recall reading about Jonno in those days mind. Came back form 3 wks off with England then asked for a further 6 wks for the 93 lions tour. Not all had the same luxuries, some couldn't tour many got into professions which would give them generous allowances. I think the diff came with the conditioning and training which whilst amateur was seen as very important.

Many in SA still have jobs... most go through university at least. Some still train as articles clerks and we have the odd medic now and again and you always have the rare farmer like Willem Alberts still around.

Of course certain clubs (Quins being one example) wre very good at placing their new player recruits in jobs that were both lucrative and would allow plenty of time off. Hence Peter Winterbottom going from being a sheep farmer in Wharfedale to a city trader...

At least full professionalism has stopped all this kind of nonsense.