606v2 Light Welterweight Rankings

Away for the weekend so thought i'd set up a few of these so we can get them over and done with, apologies for clogging up the board, as it's one of the newer and less established divisions this could be interesting

1. Chavez
2. Pryor
3. Locche
4. Loi
5. Cervantes
6. Tzuyu
7. Ross
8. Canzoner
9. Berg
10. Benitez
11. Taylor
12. Hatton
13. Camacho
14. Randall
15. Hernandez

Not sure whether we should include Bradley and Khan in this as they are still active so will leave them out for now, have had a complete overhaul of my list on second thoughts

Extremely difficult, this, since so many fighters have made it only a temporary home. I'm amazed that Chavez doesn't figure in your list, Ghosty, surely an oversight? I've ignored people like Whitaker, Mayweather and Pacquiao, who have barely fought at this weight, and it may be that I should do likewise with others. I should also say that I only really think that this division is worth a top 10 - too much flotsam at the far end of it. However, and not bothering with active fighters at this stage:

1) Chavez 2) Pryor 3) Ross 4) Canzoneri 5) Locche 6) Loi 7) Cervantes 8) Berg 9) Tszyu 10) Taylor 11) Benitez 12) Camacho 13) Randall 14) Hatton 15) Perkins

I feel like a right idiot, knew there was someone i'd forgotten and it happens to be the main man of the division.

For one time only

I think this division throws up alot of problems in terms of trying to find a balance between divisional acheivement and actual ability and talent.

Considering fighters of the quality of De la Hoya, Chavez, Whitaker and Mayweather have had brief stops in the division it makes it very difficult for me to rank inferior fighters like Cotto or Hatton above them based purely on divisional acheivement when its obvious that there have been better ifghters.

Even singular wins along the likes of De la Hoya vs Chavez or Chavez vs Taylor might well be enough to surpass longer standing reigns of lesser fighters.

For the most part, ranking who the best fighters at each weight has largely become actually judging who has the best record at the weight rather than who one believes was actually the best at the weight and as such often you will find fighters who you believe are superior ranked below fighters who simply have a better overall record at the weight. However this division challenges that situation more than most others and I would find ranking the likes of Cotto or Hatton above the likes of Chavez or Mayweather to be stetching it too far personally as its just so cut and dried who the better fighters were and who would win the match ups.

Will have to think carefully about this one in order to try and strike some kind of balance.

Think Chavez was here long enough to make his presence automatic, CL. With the others, I rather agree with you, so the other three you mention are excluded from my list in the interest of realism.

No Ross, Ghosty?

In the case of Chavez Colonial, the bulk of his career was at Light Welterweight including no less than 22 title fights there including winning 18 of them.

And Captain I knew this division was going to be a horrible one, with the traditional 8 it's far easier to nail the fighters down but I seem to have remembered the lesser fighters of the division more than the established names.

Yes Chavez has enough title defences there to warant automatic placing, although he was something of a throwback in that he flitted between weights for non title match ups. Didnt think he fought as many as 22 title fights there though I must say which would certainly make him a shoe in and probably top of the list, but off the top of my head couldnt distinguish between how many of his fights were lightweight and how many light welterweight.

I think I might follow captain carrantuohills policy of excluding fighters who stopped there only briefly rather than rank them below fighters who are almost certainly better. I would find it very difficult to rank Hatton or Cotto above Mayweather/De la Hoya/Whitakker for example so will probably just opt to disqualify them from my lists alltogether.

I try not to base these lists on a pound for pound basis, achievement at the weight itself is all that matters rather than overall achievement otherwise you'd find Pryor for instance below fighters who achieved less at the weight.

1) Barney Ross 2) Julio Cesar Chavez 3) Aaron Pryor 4) Tony Canzoneri 5) Nicolino Locche 6) Duilio Loi 7) Jack 'Kid' Berg 8) Kostya Tszyu 9) Antonio Cervantes 10) Frankie Randall 11) Wilfred Benitez 12) Ricky Hatton 13) Meldrick Taylor 14) Eddie Perkins 15) Hector Camacho

I think with Pryor its less obvious though as he would genuinely be able to give almost any light welterweight a serious fight and when you combine that with his ability and acheivement at the weight it makes for a much stronger case.

But somebody like Cotto/Hatton for arguments sake to be ranked above Mayweather or Pacquiao just doesnt sit right with me as despite acheiving more at the weight overall in terms of number of defences, its pretty obvious that the latter are much better than the former.

Pound for pound doesnt even come into play too heavily in my thinking because we are looking at an isolated division. In the simplest terms Mayweather is/was a better light welterweight than Hatton. With somebody like Pryor its much less obvious so Im happier to allow for his longer reign there to have more significance.

Overall Im happier just removing fighters like Mayweather entirely from the qualifying rather than rank them below lesser fighters due to lack of duration at the weight.

Pacquiao didn't even enter into my thinking as he only has one win at the weight over a lowly ranked Hatton while I suppose the same is true of Mayweather who's only win was over Gatti so thinking about it like that am happy to see them excluded.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Pacquiao didn't even enter into my thinking as he only has one win at the weight over a lowly ranked Hatton while I suppose the same is true of Mayweather who's only win was over Gatti so thinking about it like that am happy to see them excluded.

I would agree that ultimately that is probably the best policy.

I must beg your indulgence on this one fellas, since I'm going to break the pattern and name Pryor at the top. I know it would be better rooted in logic to plump for Chavez, but something in my gut tingles every time I watch the Hawk strut his stuff and, to me, he is the archetypal lightwelter. I should pick Chavez, probably, but I simply can't.

So :

1. Pryor
2. Chavez
3. Ross
4. Locche
5. Canzoneri
6. Loi
7. Berg
8. Cervantes
9. Benitez
10.Tszyu
11.Taylor
12.Camacho
13.Hatton
14.Randall
15.Perkins

Pryor is a tough one...Not sure the Mexican copes too well with his swarming style but then again Chavez beat the better fighters there..

Probably Chavez for me although I think Pryor beats him..

As for the rest of the list it's disappointing.....Always thought it was Camacho's worse weight.. and he's on there..

Wouldn't argue with Windy's list.......Better weight classes elsewhere to debate really.

The top ten is quite strong but beyond that it's about as poor as you'll find in any historic division.

1. Chavez
2. Pryor
3. Ross
4. Canzoneri
5. Locche
6. Berg
7. Loi
8. Cervantes
9. Benitez
10. Tszyu
11. Taylor
12. Randall
13. Camacho
14. Hatton
15. Perkins

Not sure what the policy on active fighters is but my list is pretty haphazard and I have ended up discounting almost as many fighters as I have included on grounds of not spending enough time at the weight.

So few fighters have actually spent a significant amount of time there that the list is almost automatic to a degree.

Given that the division has been often little more than a stop over, it might be worth reducing the list to 10 fighters only, especially if so many fighters are not being considered there.

1. Pryor
2. Chavez
3. Locche
4. Ross
5. Loi
6. Cervantes
7. Perkins
8. Canzoneri
9. Berg
10. Tzuyu
11. Benetiz
12. Taylor
13. Hatton
14. Fuji
15. Camacho

A little surprised that I'm the only one who's plumped for Ross at top spot. Canzoneri, as a Light-Welterweight, is decidedly better than anything on Chavez's or Pryor's 140 lb resume, and as champion Ross was utterly dominant, at least as much as Chavez and Pryor in that regard.

Still, Ross does seem to feature in most lists, so I can't complain too much.

Part of the reason I dont have Ross top i because the diviion back then was little more than an afterthought. Granted the Canzoneri win are tandout but given that the it was primarily the more prestigiou lightweight title on the line and the fight was fought within the lightweight limit Im not sure how much you can truly call it a light welterweight bout. I view it as a lightweight bout with the light welterweight title thrown in as mainly a secondary title. Also think Canzoneri should have won the return match but lost it on fould essentially.

Outside of the two Canzoneri fights I dont think theres much in the title reign and I dont think the division ever really established itself to any great effect until later on when it was reintroduced.

Fair enough Colonial, though I'd disagree that the two wins over Canzoneri should be discounted as the two of them were inside 135 lb. Armstrong defended his Welterweight title a few times effectively as a Lightweight, and if we don't discount them then I feel we shouldn't here, either.

The 140 lb weight class wasn't as revered back in Ross' day, you're right. But that shouldn't be taken as a sign of there being little quality there, because that wouldn't be true. Even if we do take the Canzoneri bouts with an asterisk, Pacho, Klick and Perolle doesn't read too badly at all. Throw in the fact that Ross never lost his title in the ring and managed a very healthy amount of defences, I feel he has a real claim to top spot, though of course it's entirely understandable that people might go for Chavez or Pryor.

Should think most current lightweight champs defend their titles as jr welters on the day of the fight...

Why not chuck them in.....

If they are fighting for the welter strap then they are not fighting as jr welters...It's boll***s..

Let's put Marciano as number 1 cruiserweight.

The difference with the likes of Armstrong is that he had a choice to come in under the limit. If you are putting two weight classes on the line at once then you are removing that option.

Canzoneri and Ross had to weigh less than than the 135 limit. The 140 title was being put on the line at 135. There was alot of fuss over Pacquiao's supposed 8th weight class world title because of the limits imposed whereby Margarito could not weigh in at the full limit. I dont see that being drastically different to this.

I dont discount the Canzoneri wins but they come with something of an asterix in my view. I have Ross third on my list and had the division been more established its entirely plausible he could be potentially number one. But I view his light welterweight title as a kind of lightly regarded title when the real fights of his career were above or below.

Its a difficult division to measure because few top fighters have really had an extended run in it which pretty much makes Chavez and Pryor my top 2 by default. Ross could have been much greater had the title meant more but ended up vacating really as an inconvenience. Not overly familiar with Pacho or Klick in truth but they would appear to be average at best.

Again they are fair points Colonial, but in fairness Canzoneri had won his Light-Welterweight title and made all his defences of it inside 135 lb (I believe, you might want to double check!), so it's not as if he was disadvantaged doing the same against Ross, or as if he was doing something alien to him by defending the title as a Lightweight.

I don't take any exception at all to Chavez and Pryor getting the nod from most people - I think those two along with Ross are the nailed-on top three - but I just wanted to put the feelers out to see if anyone else even considered making Barney the best of the trio.

In reality I dont think the 135 limit made a huge difference, but on principle its no different putting a title on at a catchweight which is generally not something I agree with.

Nowadays people seem to raise hell over a catchweight of a pound or two here or there as being the deciding factor in a fight and when you look at something like Pacquiao v Marquez which is roughly two similar sized guys fighting at a catchweight I dont get the fuss.

However still feel that at the time the title was basically just an extra trinket of sorts and that Canzoneri v Ross was basically a lightweight title fight with this extra title thrown in that didnt really make much of a difference. This would be in contrast with when Chavez and Pryor were operating and the division was far more established with its own pool of fighters challenging for it rather than it being something of an afterthought.

I agree overall that the three of them occupy the top three spots though.

The problem I have is that Berg was still recognized as the champion for much of Canzoneri and Ross's reigns thereby they were merely what we would now call alphabet title holders rather than the more revered lineal champion.

Not sure I'd agree with that, Ghosty. Berg signed to defend his title against Canzoneri inside 135 lb - it was only after he lost that he suddenly claimed it shouldn't have been a title match and lodged his appeal. Besides, much like Charles at 175 lb, the title isn't the be all and end all here. Even if Canzoneri's and Ross' claims weren't supported by everyone, they simply proved that they were better Light-Welterweights than he was.

They didn't though, they proved they were better lightweights than him which is I why I don't consider them to ever have been the true light welterweight champions much in the same way I don't consider Leonard the light heavyweight champion or Alvarez or Pacquiao as being light middleweight champions. As far as i'm concerned to be considered a light welterweight it has to be held at the 140lb limit otherwise we may as well consider all lightweight fights as light welterweight fights.

Canzoneri did defend the Light-Welterweight title numerous times against fully fledged Light-Welterweights who weighed between 135 lb and 140 lb. He simply chose to come in below 135 lb for those defences. His subseuent defences against men fighting inside the 140 lb limit are enough to put him ahead of Berg, at least in my eyes.

Likewise in the case of Ross, too.

The Canzoneri wins are standout for Ross, but his tenure at lightwelter was, otherwise, not spectacular by his lofty standards.

A draw with Frankie Klick, and defences against Johnny Farr and Kid Moro, ( both of whom had a losing record at the time, ) together with Nebo and Bobby Pacho don't really represent, by themselves, the credentials of the greatest of all time at the weight and nor do they seem to add credence to the idea. Maybe the Petrolle and Fuller fights are sufficient to pad out the Canzoneri wins and propel him to top spot, but I'm more comfortable slotting Barney in behind Pryor and Chavez.

It's all opinions, though.

Off the top of my head can only remember Canzoneri making two fully fledged defences of his light Welterweight the second of which he lost to Jadick, in itself i'm not sure two wins over Berg at lightweight and one defence of the title are enough for such high praise at light welterweight.

Canzoneri made five successful defences which were recognized by the NBA and NYSAC, among them a second win over Berg and a victory over Kid Chocolate (though there will be another can of worms as that one was also for the Lightweight crown). Personally, I don't think Berg has much of a claim to the title after losing to Canzoneri - even the BBBC didn't bill him as the champion.

Windy, I believe that the two wins over Canzoneri are a better pair of wins than anything done by Chavez or Pryor (Pryor's wins over Arguello are very, very close, mind you). As I said earlier, Canzoneri had always defended the title inside 135 lb, so I don't think we should devalue Ross' wins over him too much on that basis. His opposition thereafter wasn't spectacular, but with the exception of Arguello and Cervantes, neither was Pryor's, for example. I do think that never losing the crown in the ring is a considerable feather in Ross' cap, but that's just me.

Small margins indeed, hence why I have no issue with anyone plumping for Chavez or Pryor.

I wouldn't dream of suggesting that your argument lacks credence, Chris, merely that I don't subscribe to it and that I believe that there are valid arguments to the contrary.

Debating differing opinions is always good fun.

True say, Windy. To be honest, up until fairly recently I used to opt for Chavez as number one at 140 lb, and as I usually jig my rankings around on a fairly regular basis I wouldn't be all that surprised if I changed my mind on this one somewhere down the line.

You're a better man than I on this one, mate. I've amended my middles, am still contemplating amending my lightheavies, but come Hell or high water Pryor is staying atop my lightwelters.

Haven't yet, as far as I know, enjoyed a mid life crisis, and the Hawk is as good a reason as any for me to be able to indulge myself.

I wouldn't worry too much, Windy. I wouldn't have really batted an eyelid had everyone other than me placed Pryor at the top, so strong are his credentials. Chavez has the numbers behind him in terms of defences and so on, but Pryor was an absolute beast of a Light-Welterweight. Utterly dominant, never lost his crown in the ring and matches up well with just about anyone else who's ever cared to campaign at the weight.

Good man, Chris.

I suspected I might be able to rely on you to bolster my argument. I owe you one.

88Chris05 wrote:Canzoneri made five successful defences which were recognized by the NBA and NYSAC, among them a second win over Berg and a victory over Kid Chocolate (though there will be another can of worms as that one was also for the Lightweight crown). Personally, I don't think Berg has much of a claim to the title after losing to Canzoneri - even the BBBC didn't bill him as the champion.

But only the Jadick and one other defence was at the full contracted weight of 140lbs, the other 3 were all held at lightweight.

PM for you Ghosty.

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Barney Ross
3. Aaron Pryor
4. Nicolino Locche
5. Tony Canzoneri
6. Jack 'Kid' Berg
7. Kostya Tszyu
8. Antonio Cervantes
9. Duilio Loi
10. Frankie Randall
11. Wilfred Benitez
12. Meldrick Taylor
13. Ricky Hatton
14. Hector Camacho
15. Eddie Perkins

Assumed this would a fairly slow one with the same 15 being picked by almost everyone with the exception of Fuji and Hernandez getting a singular vote.

Checked my inbox GG but couldn't find your message

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Aaron Pryor
3. Barney Ross
4. Tony Canzoneri
5. Antonio Cervantes
6. Nicolino locche
7. Duilio Loi
8. Jack 'Kid' Berg
9. Wilfred Benitez
10. Kostya Tszyu
11. Meldrick Taylor
12. Hector Camacho
13. Eddie Perkins
14. Frankie Randall
15. Ricky Hatton

Locche
Pryor
Chavez
Tszyu
Loi
Ross
Canzoneri
Cervantes
Berg
Taylor
Benitez
Randall
Perkins
Camacho
Hatton

Personally I feel putting Chavez above Locche is a crime against humanity. Locche had more talent in one of his gonads than Chavez had in his whole body. In terms of defensive skills he is only bettered by the greatest of all Willie Pep.

Woah woah woah, Chavez was an absolute beast at light welterweight, can fully understand Pryor above him with Locche and Loi having a slight claim but Tzuyu?

Woah woah woah, Chavez was an absolute beast at light welterweight, can fully understand Pryor above him with Locche and Loi having a slight claim but Tzuyu?

1. Chavez
2. Pryor
3. Canzoneri
4. Ross
5. Locche
6. Cervantes
7. Berg
8. Loi
9. Taylor
10. Tsyzu
11. Camacho
12. Benitez
13. Hatton
14. Perkins
15. Randall

You've put Taylor down twice mate.

So I have, what a clown.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Woah woah woah, Chavez was an absolute beast at light welterweight, can fully understand Pryor above him with Locche and Loi having a slight claim but Tzuyu?

That's why I hate these lists could constantly edit them. On reflection I've been a bit harsh on Chavez and moved him up. Still not going above Locche though.

1. Chavez
2. Pryor
3. Ross
4. Canzoneri
5. Locche
6. Loi
7. Cervantes
8. Tsyzu
9. Berg
10. Benitez
11. Taylor
12. Hatton
13. Perkins
14. Arcari
15. Hernardez