Should Fiji and PI's join the Japanese League?

There was another thing about should Fiji join Super Rugby?

We already know Super rugby won't let them join so would it not be better to have the IRB fund a new competion of about 6 regionalised Janpanese teams with the top league remaining below it with the Pacific Rugby Cup teams Fiji Warriors · Fiji Barbarians · Upolu Samoa · Savaii Samoa · Tau'uta Reds · Tautahi Gold?

The IRB would have to fund a lot odf it for the first number of years untill the teams bed in and can hopefully support themselves?

Pro's develops PI and Japanese players to a higher level concertrating talent, (much Like the super 15 does, and irish provicences) and having better opposition, bringing players on in terms of quality and numbers.

As said the Japanese teams are among the richest in the world and could afford the extra travel, the IRB would have to subsidise the PI teams. After a number of years if the competation grows it may be able to support itself, with sponsership, tv money and increased revenues.

Con's,
Would Japan want a League that features non domistic teams?
Would the IRB be willing to subdise the PI teams?
Is there a market for it to develop?
Could the PI teams ever match the wages that the Japanese teams could offer, or are needed to keep talented players in the PI's?


thoughts?

I would prefer to allow the Japanese league grow organically. I don't believe the iRB should take charge.

The competitions with Pacific Rugby Cup is good but I think that it will never be enough to sustain itself.

Something needs to be done about that but I'm not sure what... In saying that your idea is one of the best I've heard.

Years ago the strongest Island team from their own inter island championship used to play in the Old Super 10 before South Africa joined.

It must of been 1994 I think because I vividly remember watching Tonga play New Zealand sides in the Super 10. I remember the year because the Hong Kong 7's 1994 was on the same time after the match. I was only about 15-16 so my memory might be hazy!

The Islanders are not ignored, there is the new pan pacific cup and they regurlarly get games against Northern Hemisphere sides in November, Wales played Fiji and Samoa in recent years.

AlynDavies wrote:Years ago the strongest Island team from their own inter island championship used to play in the Old Super 10 before South Africa joined.

It must of been 1994 I think because I vividly remember watching Tonga play New Zealand sides in the Super 10. I remember the year because the Hong Kong 7's 1994 was on the same time after the match. I was only about 15-16 so my memory might be hazy!

The Islanders are not ignored, there is the new pan pacific cup and they regurlarly get games against Northern Hemisphere sides in November, Wales played Fiji and Samoa in recent years.

Yes but they need a club league under that to provide players for the national teams. Otherwise they wont improve at all.

Irish Curry wrote:Yes but they need a club league under that to provide players for the national teams. Otherwise they wont improve at all.

Sure, but the bottom line is money in professional sport. What could an island side bring to the table?
Also take into account the travelling, whilst we consider the Islands to be near New Zealand.
Flying from New Zealand to the Islands is about Wales to Turkey! While South Africa to the Islands is twice as far as Wales for them!
It just isn't feasable sadly.

What about a league with Japan then?

Irish Curry wrote:What about a league with Japan then?

Japan already have the richest professional league in the world.



Coca Cola West Red Sparks
Fukuoka Sanix Blues
Kintetsu Liners
Kobe Steel Kobelco Steelers
Kubota Spears
NEC Green Rockets
NTT Shining Arcs
Ricoh Black Rams
Sanyo Wild Knights
Suntory Sungoliath
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Toyota Verblitz
Toyota Industries Shuttles
Yamaha Jubilo

As you can see most ALL teams are backed by massive rich corporations.

You would wonder what crowds they get though.

[quote="AlynDavies"][quote="Irish Curry"]What about a league with Japan then?[/quote]

Japan already have the richest professional league in the world.



Coca Cola West Red Sparks
Fukuoka Sanix Blues
Kintetsu Liners
Kobe Steel Kobelco Steelers
Kubota Spears
NEC Green Rockets
NTT Shining Arcs
Ricoh Black Rams
Sanyo Wild Knights
Suntory Sungoliath
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Toyota Verblitz
Toyota Industries Shuttles
Yamaha Jubilo

As you can see most ALL teams are backed by massive rich corporations.
[/quote]

They could surely find some sort of way of fiting them in or am I just cluching at straws?

Irish Curry wrote:They could surely find some sort of way of fiting them in or am I just cluching at straws?

I'm afraid your clutching at straws mate, It'a bit like adding Moscow to the Welsh Premiership in terms of distance. Besides the Japanease do love to take Islanders for their own national team!

I think a lot of European commentors here don't quite understand the geography, polictics and economy of the pacific and the Pacific Islands.

Super rugby can't make money playing games in the pacific islands and the PI countries can't afford to have a team flying to NZ, Aus and SA regularly. Add in Argentina as some have suggested and you're covering about 1/3 of the complete globe.

This isn't about teams flying to Aus, NZ, SA or Argentina. It's about teams travelling between Japan and the PI.

It still is a distance to travel. but in relative terms is it different from having Italian teams in the Celtic League?

6 PI teams may enable them to keep players at home offering the,m professional pay, and having them available for internationals.

The Japanese League remains but it has 6 regional sides (like the super 15 teams set-up), and play 6 PI teams (2 from each Island).

In time the Jap-PI League teams may be up to a standard to play again the Super 16 teams, in a short southern Hemp cup comp.

Pro's develops PI and Japanese players to a higher level concertrating talent, (much Like the super 15 does, and irish provicences) and having better opposition, bringing players on in terms of quality and numbers.

As said the Japanese teams are among the richest in the world and could afford the extra travel, the IRB would have to subsidise the PI teams. After a number of years if the competation grows it may be able to support itself, with sponsership, tv money and increased revenues.

Con's,
Would Japan want a League that features non domistic teams?
Would the IRB be willing to subdise the PI teams?
Is there a market for it to develop?
Could the PI teams ever match the wages that the Japanese teams could offer, or are needed to keep talented players in the PI's?

AlynDavies wrote:

Irish Curry wrote:Yes but they need a club league under that to provide players for the national teams. Otherwise they wont improve at all.

Sure, but the bottom line is money in professional sport. What could an island side bring to the table?
Also take into account the travelling, whilst we consider the Islands to be near New Zealand.
Flying from New Zealand to the Islands is about Wales to Turkey! While South Africa to the Islands is twice as far as Wales for them!
It just isn't feasable sadly.

I don't think the distance argument cuts it. The distance from New Zealand to Fiji is far less than the distance from Perth and Brisbane (flight is an hour shorter). If you can have teams that are the width of a continent apart, then I don't see why you can't also include a journey to Fiji.

Realistically, if a PI team of some description is going to play in any league, it has to be Super League. The distance from Fiji to Japan is insane. Using the "Wales to.." scale, it's pretty much Cardiff to Mumbai.

[quote="jbeadlesbigrighthand"][quote="AlynDavies"][quote="Irish Curry"]Yes but they need a club league under that to provide players for the national teams. Otherwise they wont improve at all.
[/quote]

Sure, but the bottom line is money in professional sport. What could an island side bring to the table?
Also take into account the travelling, whilst we consider the Islands to be near New Zealand.
Flying from New Zealand to the Islands is about Wales to Turkey! While South Africa to the Islands is twice as far as Wales for them!
It just isn't feasable sadly.

[/quote]

I don't think the distance argument cuts it. The distance from New Zealand to Fiji is far less than the distance from Perth and Brisbane (flight is an hour shorter). If you can have teams that are the width of a continent apart, then I don't see why you can't also include a journey to Fiji.

Realistically, if a PI team of some description is going to play in any league, it has to be Super League. The distance from Fiji to Japan is insane. Using the "Wales to.." scale, it's pretty much Cardiff to Mumbai.[/quote]

Super League surely cant take 6 more teams can it?? That would you [b]21[/b] teams if it was 2 teams per country thats got to be too much hasn't it? Or do I have no idea adout the league? (More likely)

Argentina will probably want a team at some point in the medium to long term future as well.

I've read that the ARU have started to centralise contracts of Argentinian international players. It's considered to be the first step towards professionalism in Argentina.
I read as well that the ARU long term strategic plan is the development of a domestic league involving 6-8 Argentinian teams and 1 team each from Chilie and Uruguay. So I've read. Not sure what teams will be included. They will either be provincial or the leading clubs teams.

On a side note I also read, as Canada and the U.S. start to move towards professional rugby, which in itself has a lot of problems, that the different unions had intentions of having a Americas club championship. Just like our Heineken cup but I think it is planned for just the leading teams of each nation or the winners of each competition. But this is all down the road. ARU won't attempt to start the league until after the induction into the Tri-nations. While Canada and the U.S have a lot of issues to resolve until any steps are taken forward. But from what I seen the Canadian Rugby Championship looks pretty decent.

As for Japan and the PIs it's a interesting idea, But don't think it would work. I don't think the PIs have an infer-structure that would support a professional league. But they have so many guys playing all over the world and the iRb funded Pacific Rugby Cup and Pacific Nations Cup does such a good job of bringing through the young talent I don't know if a professional league is that needed. Couldn't hurt though, but don't think it's realistic.

The Japan model is not broken so why fix it? If Japan don't finish 3rd in their group I will be surprised, not to mention their PNC victory this year. All this success was built on the back of the Japanese Top League. I think they've hit a fine balance between home grown players and mercenaries. Japan and Russia are the teams/markets to watch and I don't the inclusion of PIs teams will benefit the PIs or Japan. Japan don't need it and I don't the inclusion PIs teams into the Top League is the best option.

Perhaps a prolonged PRC season. Or perhaps the PIs players could be considered non-foreign players in the Japaneses teams. They already do it with Hong Kong, why not allow 3 PIs per team?

It´s a great idea Kingshu but the problem for me is the IRB involvement. Not that I have a problem with the IRB actively getting involved in the game and trying to grow the game from the bottom up as well as the trickle down effect. But if they start pumping money into the PI teams then where do they stop? Then you get the likes of Georgia, Romania for example speaking out and saying, well great for the Pacific Islands but where´s our money? If you start handing out money to some then everyone has to have a slice and that´s not feasible.

Another question you have to ask is how the club timetable fits in with the current international schedule you have. If top Pacific Island players are playing in that competition then will that clash with their international commitments. Already you have a few PI club players playing in Europe and if you spread the net further how difficult is it to get all those players together? I´m amazed at how well the likes of Samoa play the top teams given that they are cobbled together from all corners of the globe - yes the earth is in fact a flat rectangle much like an atlas. Don´t let NASA fool you into thinking otherwise - and have so little preparation time. Joining a Japanese league may increase the players they are able to pick from but doesn´t solve the problem of being able to bring them all together.

I´ve alway said the IRB can learn a lot from the sevens circuit in terms of drawing in other nations and developing them. There has to be an infrastructure that allows meaningful competition for the minnows. So have a European conference, an African conference, an Asia Pacific conference and divide the rugby world up so that each conference is more or less even. By all means continue with the existing tournaments like the Six Nations, 3N soon to be 4N but instead of the autumn and June tests, take the top five say of each conference and put them in a tournament and then have a plate and bowl like tournament underneath that involves the other nations. The top teams can use their development teams to play the minnows but everyone gets a game against one another but, more importantly for the minnows, they continue to play against more even teams later. I don´t see why a parallel tournament can´t exist alongside the World Cup for those minnow teams who turn up every four years get a walloping and go back home and expect rugby to kick off there. But if you had more games like Georgia vs Japan, Romania vs Namibia, USA vs Russia (that at least is a World Cup match this year. Can´t wait to see that!) where the teams are way more even, I´m sure you´d get an audience for that where those teams are more able to show off their skills.

The big problem is incorporating the club and test calendar and two hemispheres that are out of sync. There is big money involved in the club scene particularly in Europe and Japan so it´s very difficult to find time in the year to play more rugby where players are already fatigued. But if a World Cup is every four years, this doesn´t have to be an annual tournament. Like the cricket test rankings they are built up over time. There are good things happening around the world but they seem to be regionalised and I think more can be done to link those regions into even more meaningful competition.