Worst Masters Ever?

by hawkeye Sat 20 Aug 2011, 11:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

I vote for Cinci 2011. Poor play. Boring matches. Not to mention retirements. Has there been a worse Masters?

by carrieg4 Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:29 pm

rotla

If there are hundreds of links with Murray playing aggressively (there are) and hundreds of links with him playing passively (as you say) the argument that he is entirely passive is as untenable as the argument he is entirely aggressive.

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:30 pm

Andy is a bit of a pusher, what is infuriating to all of us who want to see him do better is that he has the talent and ability not to play that way and be successful.

That is what I was saying on this and other threads. Look at Murray in 2008 and 2009, he played high standard aggresive tennis hitting close to the lines. For some reason he has stoppd doing that, and because of this pusher style of play, he is preventing himself from ever winning at slam level (unless his opponents get injured or play poorly.)

by Calder106 Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:35 pm

lets not go round that loop again. You don't like Murray's style and are loathe to give him credit for anything. That's your perogative.

I almost agree with Socal who said earlier 'Andy is a bit of a pusher, what is infuriating to all of us who want to see him do better is that he has the talent and ability not to play that way and be successful'. The only change I would make is to say more successful beause to be seen as a really top player he needs at least one GS win. I think he is already number 7= on the Masters 1000 wins list.

by legendkillar Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:38 pm

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
legendkillar wrote:It is the fact he criticised laverfan's opinion for bringing up past performances and then done it himself. That is not a logical position to hold.

I didn't criticize laverfan at all and certainly not for for bringing up past performance by Murray in US open 2008. I just stated that using this almost 3 year old semis match as an example to state that Murray doesn't play a pusher's wait-for-errors style of play and defeated a fully fit great player as Nadal and has many great wins with super shot makings isn't right. If there are examples of his great performances with super shot makings as in US Open 2008 semis, there are examples of poor performances by Murray with losses to players which are never expected with a #4 ranked player ( I won't repeat the names ). And also a large percentage of his wins are ugly too ( waiting for opponents to start making errors and lose themselves and defaulting the win to Murray. I don't have to go far back in this either).

laverfan posted a link of the AO 2010 qtrs match against Nadal to elaborate his shot-makings. I said I can post 100s of links when Murray just waited for errors to come ( win or loss not being an issue). So what is so offensive here?

You tell me then how you are able to bring up a 6 year old Masters match to prove shot making?? I can post 100's of links of when Nalbandian has hit so many errors from winning positions.

To diminsh Murray's achievements because of his style of play is insulting to what he has achieved and to then compare it to Nalbandian is even more staggering. Like you said if Safin or Hewitt were used as comparisons it would be easy to class Murray below them on achievements alone.

No-one is saying Murray is great. Murray to get where he has is much more amazing compared to what Nalbandian has done.

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:49 pm

lets not go round that loop again. You don't like Murray's style and are loathe to give him credit for anything. That's your perogative.

Credit for playing a much lower standard of tennis since 2009? I give him credit for his improvement on clay and making 1 final + 2 semi finals. It is still a fact he doesn't play nearly as good as 2009. zen

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:51 pm

Nalbandian of 2003-2006 would probably be making slam finals in this era. Such a shame that he only ever made 1 Crying or Very sad

by legendkillar Tue 23 Aug 2011, 7:51 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
lets not go round that loop again. You don't like Murray's style and are loathe to give him credit for anything. That's your perogative.

Credit for playing a much lower standard of tennis since 2009? I give him credit for his improvement on clay and making 1 final + 2 semi finals. It is still a fact he doesn't play nearly as good as 2009.

2009???

His best year was 2008 and this year.

by socal1976 Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:03 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Nalbandian of 2003-2006 would probably be making slam finals in this era. Such a shame that he only ever made 1

I find that highly debatable and questionable. Nalbandian couldn't do it in his own prime why would he be able to do it now? He certainly wouldn't be getting into many grandslam finals today with Nadal and Djokovic waiting for him in the semis. Both those guys right now would put the wood to David Nalbandian at his best most of the time. Nalbandian failed to achieve more because of his own deficiencies in terms of desire, results are what count. As we say in the good ole US of A, score board buddy. Murray in midcareer is way more accomplished than David Nalbandian in virtually every objective measurement.

by Calder106 Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:05 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
lets not go round that loop again. You don't like Murray's style and are loathe to give him credit for anything. That's your perogative.

Credit for playing a much lower standard of tennis since 2009? I give him credit for his improvement on clay and making 1 final + 2 semi finals. It is still a fact he doesn't play nearly as good as 2009.

JM since 2009 (i.e. 2010,2011) is it not 2 Finals and 3 Semi Finals in 7 GS events. I know there is no GS win in there but it's not a bad record. Hardly shows he is playing to a lower standard. Very Happy

by sportslover Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:10 pm

carrieg4 wrote:
sportslover wrote:
carrieg4 wrote:Hawkeye

Are you VMP from 606 or just channelling him??

You seem to be perceptive carrieg what makes you think it is she?

The tone and language of the posts is very familiar.

It's her (not him) for sure - she usually refers only to the top three, probably because she was in the top three posters on the old 606.

Unfortunately under the "most disliked" category, along with Catalan Power and our old favourite Tenez furious

by legendkillar Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:12 pm

sportslover wrote:
carrieg4 wrote:
sportslover wrote:
carrieg4 wrote:Hawkeye

Are you VMP from 606 or just channelling him??

You seem to be perceptive carrieg what makes you think it is she?

The tone and language of the posts is very familiar.

It's her (not him) for sure - she usually refers only to the top three, probably because she was in the top three posters on the old 606.

Unfortunately under the "most disliked" category, along with Catalan Power and our old favourite Tenez

Please can we tone down. Thanks

by CaledonianCraig Tue 23 Aug 2011, 8:31 pm

A question to raiders of the lost ark.

You keep holding up his WTF win as evidence of Nalbandian being better than Murray yet the stats tell us a wholly different story.

If you want to point to Nalbandian's injuries then he must have at least been fit in 2005 so lets look at his GS record that year. Three quarter-finals in Slams and a 4th Round defeat in a year when fit. That to me would constitute a disappointing year for Andy.

I don't believe Nalby is on the same level as Murray but let us look deeper.

Achievements as in ATP Titles won:-

Nalbandian 11 (in 11 years as a pro) Murray 18 (in 6 years as a pro)

Masters Titles Won:-

Nalbandian 2 Murray 7

Slam Finals Reached:-

Nalbandian 1 (winning 6 games in total against Lleyton Hewitt)

Murray 3 (winning 31 games in total)

Slam Semi Reached:-

Nalbandian 5 Murray 7

World Tour Final Wins:-

Nalbandian 1 Murray 0

World Tour Finals Competed In:-

Nalbandian 3 Murray 3

Best Ranking Achieved:-

Nalbandian No.3 Murray No. 2

Pretty conclusive and I'd hazard a guess the experts and pundits would place Murray above Nalbandian as well.

by **laverfan** Tue 23 Aug 2011, 9:57 pm

I am glad to see Rotla come back to this thread. It at least shows a desire to debate and state opinions.

Craig's statistical comparison makes a very good case for Murray being better.

The one match this year that stands out for me is the MC SF against Nadal when Murray almost withdrew due to elbow issues, but played with painkiller injections (Novocain/Lidocaine/Cortisone?).

Regarding the Nalbandian comparison, I would suggest that his 'fatness' (please Socal) should not be confused with being a short stocky build. There are many other players who are similar in build. Brian Dabul comes to mind.

Nalbandian has had a good career so far, perhaps not as stellar as his contemporary, Federer. Has a very interesting h2h against Federer, 5-0 till 2003, then the TMS in 2005 and the two 2007 back-to-back wins in Madrid (HC - not the current Clay) and Paris (HC).

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/David-Nalbandian.aspx

I like both Nalbandian and Murray. thumbsup

by CaledonianCraig Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:02 pm

Yes laverfan just because I am re-iterating my belief that Murray is better than Nalbandian doesn't mean to say I don't think Nalbandian is a damn fine player as he is.

by **laverfan** Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:05 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes laverfan just because I am re-iterating my belief that Murray is better than Nalbandian doesn't mean to say I don't think Nalbandian is a damn fine player as he is.

Craig.

by legendkillar Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:12 pm

Rome springs to mind too. What amazes me is that posters are quick to acknowledge the negatives in Murrays game and yet not acknowledge the positives.

by sportslover Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:19 pm

legendkillar wrote:Rome springs to mind too. What amazes me is that posters are quick to acknowledge the negatives in Murrays game and yet not acknowledge the positives.

Unfortunately that is the price that is paid for being successful.

Some people just have to put a player down for reasons known to themselves.

How often do you here of any player outside the top ten getting a mention far less criticised!

by CaledonianCraig Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:22 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG8jdpmCaVE

Videos like these show what Andy is capable of and note the stunned and enthralled reraction of the crowd milking Andy's play.

by time please Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:37 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG8jdpmCaVE

Videos like these show what Andy is capable of and note the stunned and enthralled reraction of the crowd milking Andy's play.

this is Andy at his best, dictating the play. Actually I think he and Rafa always have entertaining matches, they compliment each other. I don't know whether AM has just become a little more cautious - the higher in the rankings you go, potentially you have more to lose. He certainly can still play like this, but I can't remember the last time I saw him go through a tournament looking invincible every match.....but if I had to, I would say AO 2010 until the final - during that tournament, I didn't believe he could lose.

by sportslover Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:39 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG8jdpmCaVE

Videos like these show what Andy is capable of and note the stunned and enthralled reraction of the crowd milking Andy's play.

Pusher - lol - Now if he was to play like that at the USO.........!!!

The wums should watch that before posting their usual "pusher crap" Laugh

by CaledonianCraig Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:44 pm

Oh there are stacks more videos available other than that one showing Andy's tremendous array of shots. Also another puzzle for people? If Andy's style of play is 'boring' and he never merited the Cincinnati Masters why did such a large crowd return about an hour after a torrential downpour to see him get his crown? Surely, they would not have hung around if his style of play was not to their liking.

by sportslover Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:52 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Oh there are stacks more videos available other than that one showing Andy's tremendous array of shots. Also another puzzle for people? If Andy's style of play is 'boring' and he never merited the Cincinnati Masters why did such a large crowd return about an hour after a torrential downpour to see him get his crown? Surely, they would not have hung around if his style of play was not to their liking.

Yes Craig they did return, but having tickets for the match after Andy's - " The screamer" v Jankovic might also have been the reason Very Happy

by CaledonianCraig Tue 23 Aug 2011, 10:56 pm

That is true of course sportslover. Wink

by time please Tue 23 Aug 2011, 11:10 pm

erm BOO or SL, I may well be in a minority of one here, but I find it really uncomfortable to read posts like yours earlier which named two posters, one of whom posts here and one who you think might be here under a different name, and labelled them as two of the most disliked posters on 606. Also one of your posts just above which labels posters (and I think we can all guess who given the way this thread has gone) as WUMS for the simple reason that they hold a strong opinion which you disagree with.

Craig - great video, off to search youtube for some more Murray moments thumbsup

by sportslover Tue 23 Aug 2011, 11:21 pm

time please wrote:erm BOO or SL, I may well be in a minority of one here, but I find it really uncomfortable to read posts like yours earlier which named two posters, one of whom posts here and one who you think might be here under a different name, and labelled them as two of the most disliked posters on 606. Also one of your posts just above which labels posters (and I think we can all guess who given the way this thread has gone) as WUMS for the simple reason that they hold a strong opinion which you disagree with.

Craig - great video, off to search youtube for some more Murray moments

" I find it really uncomfortable to read posts like yours"

And so did I and lots of others on the old 606 reading theirs.

If it makes you uncomfortable - the secret is dont read them.

by time please Tue 23 Aug 2011, 11:29 pm

sportslover wrote:
time please wrote:erm BOO or SL, I may well be in a minority of one here, but I find it really uncomfortable to read posts like yours earlier which named two posters, one of whom posts here and one who you think might be here under a different name, and labelled them as two of the most disliked posters on 606. Also one of your posts just above which labels posters (and I think we can all guess who given the way this thread has gone) as WUMS for the simple reason that they hold a strong opinion which you disagree with.

Craig - great video, off to search youtube for some more Murray moments

" I find it really uncomfortable to read posts like yours"

And so did I and lots of others on the old 606 reading theirs.

If it makes you uncomfortable - the secret is dont read them.

I take it you are blissfully unaware of the irony and contradiction in your reply?

by Jeremy_Kyle Tue 23 Aug 2011, 11:30 pm

time please wrote:erm BOO or SL, I may well be in a minority of one here, but I find it really uncomfortable to read posts like yours earlier which named two posters, one of whom posts here and one who you think might be here under a different name, and labelled them as two of the most disliked posters on 606. Also one of your posts just above which labels posters (and I think we can all guess who given the way this thread has gone) as WUMS for the simple reason that they hold a strong opinion which you disagree with.

Craig - great video, off to search youtube for some more Murray moments

Tp: our "king of pundits" named also Catalan power who, apparently, also posts here as Simple_Analyst, although recently seems to have been a bit in aphasic mood

by Josiah Maiestas Tue 23 Aug 2011, 11:41 pm

He is a pusher though, his push point to aggresion ratio is something like 20:1. Just face those facts and stop crying about it please... Very Happy

by **laverfan** Wed 24 Aug 2011, 12:02 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG8jdpmCaVE

Videos like these show what Andy is capable of and note the stunned and enthralled reraction of the crowd milking Andy's play.

Craig, just one observation, specifically on this video. The Federer 2008 TMS portion is the only time I can recall Federer having a trainer come out twice for his back issues, a match which Federer needed to win to stay in TMS following his loss to Simon, IIRC and Stepanek was a last minute replacement for Roddick.

It looks like the 2007 AO Nadal match (the green surface... Wink

)

by legendkillar Wed 24 Aug 2011, 6:40 am

I must admit I cannot hide my disappointment with some of the posters on here who seem to find ways of justifying hidden agenda's within the posts of others. A post which begun as highlighting the quality of tennis at an event which then quickly descended into a witch hunt of a certain player and then that player becoming the sole focal point of the post and almost apportioning blame to that player for the quality of tennis on display.

If this the standard of discussion that is wished upon on this forum then I will have to say that I no longer want any part of it.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 24 Aug 2011, 6:59 am

laverfan wrote:
1. You now seem to be focussed on slams only.
2. "Meek loss" to a player playing the tennis of his life with a 57-2 record (including Cincy) and someone who beat Federer in straight sets in the SFs?
3. Andy will never play like Nalbandian. Each player has an individual style, which should be respected.
4. AO 2010, Federer in decline? Beg to disagree. Post-USO 2010, Federer won WTF 2010 (and a few other titles), that you have conveniently forgotten in your argument. The WTF 2010 Murray SF against Nadal was also mentioned to show Murray's skills.
5. To be able to run around and retrieve like Murray, it takes phenomenal conditioning and physical strength. Ask Nadal what it has done to his knees despite his clay roots?
6. If there is a strong dislike for a player, we should refrain from discussing in negatives. If you like Nalbandian, perhaps we should discuss him on a different thread.

1. I'm not focussed on slams alone. I metion WTF as well. I basically focus on great performances and not ugly wins.

2. How was it not a meek loss. Andy got tamed in that match. Djokovic's performance wasn't close to as it was against Federer yet it was enough for a st. sets win. Djo got broken 3 times and had more UEs then winners. Both player had more errors than winners. So this wasn't particularly a great match. Yes I agree Djo is playing the tennis of his lifetime but it wasn't like the current aura of invincibility which he has now, existed even at AO 2011. That was just his opening tournament for the year and including that win in semis he had 6-0 win/loss. Now is 6-0 win/loss ratio for the year as threatening and as close as 57-2 ( with 2 GS wins, 5 masters wins and #1 ranking??). Andy had 3 consecutive prior hard court wins against Djo so looking at that he was more favorite of the two considering the massive win Djo was able to pull against Federer. It always difficult to come up another day with the same level of intensity after a great win. But what happened in the finals? Andy lost easily. Andy was defeated in his own game. Djo took less risk and played solid and Murray was forced to try the aggressive style which is not natural to him. Th result: more than twice UE than winners for Murray. And stats here http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day19/1701ms.html .

3. When I said play like Nalbandian what I meant was pulling shots and aggresive play like a fit and motivated Nalbandian. Nalby is a natural aggressive player unlike Murray. I enjoy aggressive style.

4. Federer has been in decline since 2008 itself. He now isn't even 60% of the player he was in the 2003-2007. A decline is often triggered by an illness or a major injury after which even when completely fit, players struggle to gain the form they had previously. And with age body's ability to heal quickly reduces, which leads to more illness and injuries and hence steepening the decline. Federer suffered Mono in the beginning of 2008 till about starting-mid of clay season and many major back problems by the year end. He suffered many losses including many first time to many players. (e.g. Simon, Blake, karlovic). But what we are talking about is Roger Federer. The fact that the talent of the man is just so huge that its improbable to see a sudden and very steep decline or a plunge which in itself is very creditable. Look at good talented players like Safin, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Davydenko, Blake, Karlovic ( whatever even little he was, he just isn't after the injury). See how a a steep decline gets triggered by an injury at age about late 20s and how difficult (almost impossible) to gain form when back after rehab. For Federer's talent and skill it can't be steep like these players, but the decline surely is there. He won US open that time, but his performance wasn't consistent. 2009 with 2 masters and 2 GS wins and all 4 GS finals look great by any imagination. But he still was struggling to win matches. It was just his sheer determination and desire to win that got him FO 2009. In that FO 2009 GS he struggled against Jose Acasuso to win. Also he won wimbledon on determination; he wanted to get past Pete's 14. He struggled at the WTF 2009 and could only win 1 RR match. He lost to Davydenko and this was one guy troubling him a lot. In the AO 2010 Davydenko was 1 set and a break and 15-40 on Federer serve. Defeat was on cards, but Federer produced an almost miraculous win. And Carrying on that confidence he won AO 2010. But it still wasn't like the way he won the AO 2004 or AO 2006, 2007. So Federer was in decline. And if you look what did he from AO 2010 till the US 2010 hard court season, he was far much below on would expect from a prime Federer. He lost US open semis after having match points. He lost twice earlier having match points to Baghdatis and Bedych. He won WTF 2010 in one of the most dominant performances a player can have on the fellow top-8. But still he couldn't be consistent. These are signs if decline i.e. the widening of the gap between a players wins and losses. Federer lost matches even in 2004-2007, but those were close matches and the opponent had to produce brilliant performances to win against Federer. in Wimby 2010 even Falla almost pulled the st sets win and it wasn't any great performance. So I think I've made some clear points about Federer's slow but sure decline.

5. I never had any doubt about Andy's phenomenal strength and retrieving skill and stamina on court. Nadal is the pioneer of this generation of players who have taken the level of fitness and stamina and lung capacity to keep playing punishing ralleys like almost forever.

6. I have no strong dislike for Murray. I have strong dislike for his attitude on court, his playing style and his constant harping of "I am still young and I have time to win majors". It seems like its impossible for him to raise his level to win, so rather he will wait patiently for the top guys to decline which they will with age and Andy can make merry. But I doubt even with this strategy he will because there are better players who have already overtaken Murray ( Djo's rise in 2011 is the case).

by legendkillar Wed 24 Aug 2011, 7:26 am

Karlovic talented??? laughing

Classic gold

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 24 Aug 2011, 7:48 am

carrieg4 wrote:rotla

If there are hundreds of links with Murray playing aggressively (there are) and hundreds of links with him playing passively (as you say) the argument that he is entirely passive is as untenable as the argument he is entirely aggressive.

There are NO 100s of videos of matches of Murray playing aggressive. If there had been then Murray's fans wouldn't have had to keep going 3 years back to US open 2008 semis win against Nadal to use an an example for his aggressive style. When ever the word aggressive and Murray are mentioned, Murray fans always bring out that one match. and It wasn't even like a Final that got Murray a major GS win.

Okay just leave all the previous years behind when Murray was just beginning to get in top gear, just tell me this year in 2001 till Cincy-2011, how many of Murray's matches you can recall where he played aggressive ( win or loss not to be considered). Look at his playing activity in 2011 http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx?t=pa and see for yourself how many of those matches you can recall where Andy played great aggressive positive tennis and not being a pusher waiting for errors. The way he celebrates with huge a roar of 'come-on" and a fist pump on a Unforced Error point from the opponent itself tells what he is actually thinking.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:00 am

Of course there are lots of such-like videos of Andy playing aggressively and I see you chose to totally ignore the full summary of each players career achievements earlier on directed to you raiders.

ONE stat where he is ahead (the World Tours Final win) and that is what you are grasping on to as sole evidence. Also I wonder wether Nalby has EVER topped the stats for any facet of the game whilst Andy has as best returner of serve in the world. Now you do admit you dislike (I'd say you are holding back greatly there) areas of Andy's game ....fine. Other tennis fans around the world love his game and wonderful array of shot-making but most importantly on the achievements account he is also way ahead of Nalbandian. I will say again this does not mean that I don't think David is a great player because he is but its a pathetic shame you don't have the same decency to credit a world No.4 and try to shoot him down in flames. Still that is what hatred does for you.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:01 am

legendkillar wrote:Karlovic talented???

Classic gold

This is what I expect from a 5 year old who just can't find enough wit to reason sensibly. You didn't even read clearly what I said about karlovic. I said what ever little he was, he just couldn't even keep it after the injury. I don't know what you define talent as but for sensible and knowledgeable tennis fans, serving is a huge talent and Karlovic's serve is the most lethal a serve has ever got in the history of the game. If someone could accomplish what karlovic has with virtually nothing except the serve, then that serve has got to be very very special. And it is indeed.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:15 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Karlovic talented???

Classic gold

This is what I expect from a 5 year old who just can't find enough wit to reason sensibly. You didn't even read clearly what I said about karlovic. I said what ever little he was, he just couldn't even keep it after the injury. I don't know what you define talent as but for sensible and knowledgeable tennis fans, serving is a huge talent and Karlovic's serve is the most lethal a serve has ever got in the history of the game. If someone could accomplish what karlovic has with virtually nothing except the serve, then that serve has got to be very very special. And it is indeed.

The above post is revealing.

raiders_of_the_lost_ark can post absolute pure praise for Karlovic and yes I'd agree with the post and just comments on his strength for his most noted facet of his game and posts with no put down of Karlovic. On the other side of the coin Andy is currently one of if not THE best returners of the serve in the world but at no time do I hear that same poster give oceans of credit for that. Serve is one facet of a game and return of serve is another and BOTH deserve praise if carried out with such precision and skill as is the case here but don't get the praise for Murray from raiders_of_the_lost_ark. Rolling Eyes

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:16 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course there are lots of such-like videos of Andy playing aggressively and I see you chose to totally ignore the full summary of each players career achievements earlier on directed to you raiders.

ONE stat where he is ahead (the World Tours Final win) and that is what you are grasping on to as sole evidence. Also I wonder wether Nalby has EVER topped the stats for any facet of the game whilst Andy has as best returner of serve in the world. Now you do admit you dislike (I'd say you are holding back greatly there) areas of Andy's game ....fine. Other tennis fans around the world love his game and wonderful array of shot-making but most importantly on the achievements account he is also way ahead of Nalbandian. I will say again this does not mean that I don't think David is a great player because he is but its a pathetic shame you don't have the same decency to credit a world No.4 and try to shoot him down in flames. Still that is what hatred does for you.

I didn't even mention Nalbandian even once in this post. I also accepted that I should not have mentioned Nalby which brought all this heated reactions and also that Naby himself with all the talent hasn't made too much with it. Fine. We can discuss about Nalby and Murray later in a new topic. Nalbandian's topic is done for now.

So can you answer to the points I mention instead of bringing new dimensions like return of serve. We can talk that too but atm talk just about what I asked. How many of Andy's matches in 2011 can you recall where he played absolute aggressive tennis instead of waiting for errors. Calculate the ratio and post the links if available for us to watch as well.

by legendkillar Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:19 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Karlovic talented???

Classic gold

This is what I expect from a 5 year old who just can't find enough wit to reason sensibly. You didn't even read clearly what I said about karlovic. I said what ever little he was, he just couldn't even keep it after the injury. I don't know what you define talent as but for sensible and knowledgeable tennis fans, serving is a huge talent and Karlovic's serve is the most lethal a serve has ever got in the history of the game. If someone could accomplish what karlovic has with virtually nothing except the serve, then that serve has got to be very very special. And it is indeed.

You really are the biggest tithead I have come across on any sport forum. Lethal serve should be praised????? And yet someone who is clearly one of the best returners of serve as posted is not respected??

Total moron with no clue or grasp of the game of tennis.

Who leads the % of 1st serve returns this season??

I'll give you a clue.

It's not Nalbandian and it's not Karlovic.

by legendkillar Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:20 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course there are lots of such-like videos of Andy playing aggressively and I see you chose to totally ignore the full summary of each players career achievements earlier on directed to you raiders.

ONE stat where he is ahead (the World Tours Final win) and that is what you are grasping on to as sole evidence. Also I wonder wether Nalby has EVER topped the stats for any facet of the game whilst Andy has as best returner of serve in the world. Now you do admit you dislike (I'd say you are holding back greatly there) areas of Andy's game ....fine. Other tennis fans around the world love his game and wonderful array of shot-making but most importantly on the achievements account he is also way ahead of Nalbandian. I will say again this does not mean that I don't think David is a great player because he is but its a pathetic shame you don't have the same decency to credit a world No.4 and try to shoot him down in flames. Still that is what hatred does for you.

I didn't even mention Nalbandian even once in this post. I also accepted that I should not have mentioned Nalby which brought all this heated reactions and also that Naby himself with all the talent hasn't made too much with it. Fine. We can discuss about Nalby and Murray later in a new topic. Nalbandian's topic is done for now.

So can you answer to the points I mention instead of bringing new dimensions like return of serve. We can talk that too but atm talk just about what I asked. How many of Andy's matches in 2011 can you recall where he played absolute aggressive tennis instead of waiting for errors. Calculate the ratio and post the links if available for us to watch as well.

v Michael Berrer on one foot FO 2011.

Or will it pain you to watch aggressive tennis?

by CaledonianCraig Wed 24 Aug 2011, 8:22 am

Tennis as in any other sports is a results game. Always has been and always will be. Players when they hang up their rackets are judged on their playing record/achievements/great matches etc and that is what matters. This year Andy (apart from Djokovic) is the only player to reach the semis at all three slams so something about his game is working and that is all that matters.

Fine you don't like his style of play and there are players I don't like as well with their attitude but I still hold my hands up to them and give credit where credit is due.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:33 am

CaledonianCraig, if result is the only thing that can matter then there is no point in having any discussion on any of the topics on any tennis forum. Everyone can see the results and that's all. But what differentiates a true tennis fan who loves the sport is their interest and ability to look beyond just what the stats/records/results show. This is what keeps them into following matches and tournaments to every single detail which an ignorant fan for whom the only thing that matters is the result would ignore. If results/stats/records are the only things that concerns someone , then it has to be someone with only a passing interest in the sport which is evident that he didn't bother spending time either watching the game, analyzing the points and level of play but was only satisfied with the match result which he can google and know within seconds.

Legendkiller, its a pity that a person who is so arrogant and lacking in sensible reasoning that he just can't have a civilized discussion is a moderator of a popular site. You accuse others of not doing research prior to posting, criticizing other's views, trying to move the goalpost and diverting the topic, raising insults etc. But the fact it is you yourself who keeps doing every bit of those. Your insults and mud slinging doesn't tell anything about me, but it only tells what you are made of.

by legendkillar Wed 24 Aug 2011, 9:37 am

Raiders,

All you have done is denied every fact that has been presented to regarding Murray. You can't and won't accept that his talent is to take advantage of players when they are not playing there best tennis and takes them out of their comfort zone. It is you that doesn't appreciate tennis.

All this tells me is that you are petty and instead of actually doing the honest thing and say I don't like the guy, fine. Disregard his talent is nothing more than slanderous. Your logic is to move the goalposts because you cannot accept reason.

So stop trying to kid everyone you know what your on about and playing the victim in all of this.

by sportslover Wed 24 Aug 2011, 10:06 am

raiders - what planet are you from and is their Wiki up to date?

by CaledonianCraig Wed 24 Aug 2011, 10:45 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark

Another trait you totally ignore and IS what you call is him waiting for errors. Incorrect. I will educate you. Many times in his matches his opponent hits a shot that against almost every other player in the world would be a winner but Andy retrieves it from impossible areas and hits it back leaving his opponent with a far from easy winner to hit and invariably nets it or misses and it logs as an unforced error. The amount of times commentators point out his ability to make his opponent play one final shot is endless. A great and much-overlooked trait.

by Calder106 Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:02 am

Raider you 'I have no strong dislike for Murray. I have strong dislike for his attitude on court, his playing style and his constant harping of "I am still young and I have time to win majors". It seems like its impossible for him to raise his level to win, so rather he will wait patiently for the top guys to decline which they will with age and Andy can make merry. But I doubt even with this strategy he will because there are better players who have already overtaken Murray ( Djo's rise in 2011 is the case).'

Mmm doesn't leave much to like then.

We have already discussed his playing style. Tennis is a head to head game where you match up to your opponent and come up with a game plan to beat him. If the game plan works against a given opponent why change it. You don't like it fair enough. There are styles of play I don't like e.g. big serve with not much else to back it up. So each to their own.

His attitude on court is sometimes not very good I admit but I also think sometimes it is overblown seen as only his issue. For instance in Cinci. In the quarters Simon was chuntering away to himself for much of the second set but no one seemed to think that was an issue. In the semi against Fish both players were moaning at times and showing signs of fatigue/strains however on the Sky summary it was only Murray that got panned for showing his discomfort. We were told that Djokovic never does that now as it shows weakness to your opponent . Then we saw the final and although Djokovic was definitely injured his body language was terrible. No comment from Sky on that.

Finally who apart from Djokovic (who has always been at least Murray's equal and moved to a different plain this year) has overtaken him. A fully fit Del Potro would have (and hopefully will be) a good match up but apart from the young guys who are just starting their careers I don'tsee anyone else overtaking him.

Murray is far from perfect but has used his talent and dedication to keep himself near the top of the game where apart form the top three other will have one possibly two good seasons then drop away.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:12 am

Of course results are all that matters and even the players themselves would choose to win ugly than lose beautifully.

It is clear you are a fan of the serve/volley game and perhaps that explains your dislike of Murray's game because he is so good at negating that game as he is one of the best returners of serve in the world.

Frankly, I do wonder what people's reaction would be should Andy win a slam. Sadly, it wouldn't mean a lot as far as forums such as these go as we'd have posters still shooting Andy down in flames. His achievements mean nothing to them so I wonder what is the point in trying to debate with close-minded people. Of course to open-minded tennis/sports fans that have no hatred in them they'll be more congratulatory and complimentary but the rest will have excuses and bitterness lined up to fire at Andy. Very sad.

by erictheblueuk Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:25 am

It's always a bad one when Murray wins it Run

by sportslover Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:25 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Of course results are all that matters and even the players themselves would choose to win ugly than lose beautifully.

It is clear you are a fan of the serve/volley game and perhaps that explains your dislike of Murray's game because he is so good at negating that game as he is one of the best returners of serve in the world.

Frankly, I do wonder what people's reaction would be should Andy win a slam. Sadly, it wouldn't mean a lot as far as forums such as these go as we'd have posters still shooting Andy down in flames. His achievements mean nothing to them so I wonder what is the point in trying to debate with close-minded people. Of course to open-minded tennis/sports fans that have no hatred in them they'll be more congratulatory and complimentary but the rest will have excuses and bitterness lined up to fire at Andy. Very sad.

One thing for sure Craig Andy wont give a "monkeys" what posters on ANY tennis forum say about him and for that matter neither will any other player.

Any poster on any forum who thinks that their post carries any weight in the "real world" are seriously deluded.

So have fun Guys.

by Josiah Maiestas Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:29 am

One thing for sure Craig Andy wont give a "monkeys" what posters on ANY tennis forum say about him and for that matter neither will any other player.

Because he's an ignorant. If he wins a slam he'll be the most dislikeable winner for a while in my flawless opinion (probably close between him and Gaudio.)

by CaledonianCraig Wed 24 Aug 2011, 11:32 am

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
One thing for sure Craig Andy wont give a "monkeys" what posters on ANY tennis forum say about him and for that matter neither will any other player.

Because he's an ignorant. If he wins a slam he'll be the most dislikeable winner for a while (probably close between him and Gaudio.)

In your opinion you should add.

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