The RWC and the 6N

So another weekend of warm ups out of the way.

Hopefully your team performed well.

But my question is this - after the last 3 weekends of action, have you changed your view on how the 6 nation teams will do at the world cup? Do you have a better feeling now than you did 3 weeks ago? Do you think that your team is coming good or has the last 3 weeks dented your hopes.

So my question is - which of the 6N teams do you think will go furthest based on what you have seen this month?

I am not sure about when which teams played their best selections, but on face value it seems France can go into the RWC with confidence

based on what ive seen it is France who have put away a good Ireland side twice and are as always a very powerful unit

England - after the performance in cardiff from what was meant to be there first team (judging from the end of the 6n) englands stock has fallen however they are still a big physical unit capable of dominating teams, i would not be surprised to see them go far as well,

Ireland and wales for me are in the similar positions (even thought in sure my wlesh brethren will scream to high heaven about how we just beat england etc etc) i think will do the best out of the celtic nations and probably have a batter chance of topping their group than wales do and failing that have a better chance of getting past SA than wales do of getting past australia (if we qualify).

scotland and italy to make up the numbers

Gavindragon, do you not think Scotland will beat Argentina?

that one i feel could go either way and whoever wins that i cant see getting past the quarters....

tbh most 6n sides with the exception of italy will EXPECT to make the quarters,

the only teams i see with more than a chance of going beyond that are france and england,

the teams i see with a slight chance of going beyond that are ireland and wales

i cant see scotland beating anybody in the quarters

To me, despite the disappointing outcomes from Ireland, I still expect them to do better than the final scores indicate. They have shown spots of brilliance which, if they tap that vein in the RWC, could do some real damage.

France, is, well, France. They can win the RWC, or crash out in the QFs. Nothing I have seen changes the simple fact that France is France. C'est la vie.

England can do extremely well. They really haven't put together a solid match so far. But as I see with Ireland, they have a rich vein to tap. If they do, they can get to the finals with a shot to win.

Wales have also shown a few glimpses of good play. But they still haven't decided on their best out half, and look overall a bit confused. At least they are in good physical shape. Putting them in the refrigerators may or may not be a good idea, but I can't see them getting past the QFs.

And I just want to see some great play from Scotland. The potential is there. Rugby in Scotland need a great display, and that helps Rugby all over these islands.

Yeah the problem for Scotland or even argentina and england is whoever comes second in that group is likely to meet NZ, and I don't really think anyone's going to beat them this RWC.

Biltong,
You are probably right, but, you know the old expression: that's why they play the games.
We never really know. If everything went according to form, then there is nothing for any onf us, right?

yes perhaps im being a little harsh on ireland, id just expected them to have beaten france in one of the warm up games and i think they would fancy their chances against both aus in the groups or SA in the quarters but theres having chances and then theres taking them, and the SH teams do NOT miss many opportunities to win games

doctor_grey wrote:Biltong,
You are probably right, but, you know the old expression: that's why they play the games.
We never really know. If everything went according to form, then there is nothing for any onf us, right?

Going on the last world cup there were many surprises, so nothing will surprise me this time round.

For me, i think that it will be France. They are by far the best 6N team.
England, Wales and Ireland are all about equal i feel but i expect Wales to do the better out of those 3.

I just have no expectations in Ireland and feel that they will come out of the group phase but go home the very next match.

[quote="doctor_grey"]
England can do extremely well. They really haven't put together a solid match so far. But as I see with Ireland, they have a rich vein to tap. If they do, they can get to the finals with a shot to win.

Wales have also shown a few glimpses of good play. But they still haven't decided on their best out half, and look overall a bit confused. At least they are in good physical shape. Putting them in the refrigerators may or may not be a good idea, but I can't see them getting past the QFs.


England can do extremely well!! and Wales look overall a bit confused - Which warm up games have you been watching?

Tell me, where is this rich vein, is it Wigglesworth, Flood, Hape, Tindall, Banahan, Moody?

Although i am an England fan through and through, i was ok when England played Wales at twickenham, i thought it was just first game nerves.

But when Wales played England in Wales and England lost and with having most posession, well i am not so sure.

Watching France yesterday against Ireland, if France play like that all the way through the RWC, well they should get further than any other NH team in my opinion.

Iv'e gone for Wales simply because I think they have some confidence, people can say that these games don't matter but Wales are winning and a Wales team that's winning is a good side, that can push the best teams close.

See our group as very open with nothing much between the top 3 sides.

Argentina have good forwards (much better than Wales' yesterday) but fail to turn pressure into points - almost same failings as Scotland - and Wales exposed defensive weaknesses.

England have few weaknesses but few outstandingly good areas too. They dominated upfront against Wales, yet were given a lesson in taking chances by the Welsh in the 2nd game. They know they should have won comfortably but ultimately failed. If they play France in theQFs I would start France as 60:40 favourites but the English do play the French well so SFs a possibility.

Scotland similar to Argentina, our front-row about holds together, back 5 are very strong with reserves, SH, OC and back 3 are all good. FH and IC continue to be areas of concern, if Townsend can string them together we could well qualify, even top the group, if he cannot we will fail to reach the QFs. The warm up games were ok, satisfied we won and it helped decide who would be in the best 22 but I was also a bit disappointed and think there is a real chance we won't reach the QFs, or we will and meet NZ. We need to get it right to have any chance of topping the group, but even then France, who have been the best of the NH sides, would probably be our opponents. So QF is realistic.

France I think will reach the QFs and will probably make the SFs. After that who would bet against them. Their fall offs in games is a bit of bad trend though, did they just ease up?

Ireland fought back well against France and although they lost their 3 (not Connaught) games I think they are stronger than that suggests. They could beat Australia, they should make the QFs and I think the SFs are not unrealistic.

Wales' forwards have not impressed in the warm ups and are arguably the weakest of the 6N teams. What Wales have done though is defend well and take the few chances on offer which other B&I teams haven't. They need to keep executing on each opportunity then they could go well. I think though they need to ensure they get past Samoa and Fiji (SA will probably top the group) to make the QFs. Think they probably will but don't see them going further.

France are the standout side with Wales building momentum despite Agatha Christie plotting our WC preparations!
England look clueless and Ireland's stars are sadly now too old.What can you say about Scotland?Andy Irvine was a cracking player.

ruby baby,
Right now we have pre-RWC matches which are not much more than glorified practices. I wouldn't look at the scores of these matches as much as what can be taken from the play.

I do not think Ireland are past it. They have class players coming back from injuries and a killer back row. I think their last RWC was more of a fluke. They have the potential to turnn over one of the SH teams and after tha, wh knows?

England have shown their traditional strength of their pack is powerful. It is really up to their backs to get things going. Once playing with thir final back three, I think we will see some much better play. And, as Australia have seen, this team can beat them.

Wales, unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Hoping they get to the QFs.

It has to be France doesn't it. Not sure who after that, there's still an Ireland/England game to be played. Ireland may constantly fold against France but could still have the beating of the rest.

Boston Exile wrote:

Wales' forwards have not impressed in the warm ups and are arguably the weakest of the 6N teams.

got to admit, this line made me laugh out loud, all those wooden spoons we've won in the last couple of years have obviously given us a reputation.

We are talking about the warm up games aren't we? I've watched a few and have not been impressed by the Welsh forwards - are you pleased with how they have done? Conversely they've done very well through the backs and have executed chances better than anyone else. That is the way I saw it.

Boston Exile wrote:We are talking about the warm up games aren't we? I've watched a few and have not been impressed by the Welsh forwards - are you pleased with how they have done? Conversely they've done very well through the backs and have executed chances better than anyone else. That is the way I saw it.

Yes we are very pleased with the performances of Huw Bennet, Paul James, Adam Jones(his one game), Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Lydiate, SAM WARBURTON and Toby Faletau. They're all forwards who played in the warm up games. Does this answer your question? Atm, France and Wales are in a good position going into the World Cup.

Well up until yesterday we hadn't had a 1st team front row and with Adam we had more than our fair share of ball up front and held our own in the scrum. I find it funny that you and Dr Grey can talk about when you get Ashton back and your backs firing everything will be alright yet you seem to easily overlook the fact that Wales have not fielded one 1st choice front row forward until yesterday. You might also want to add that your backrow were murdered at the breakdown against Wales as alluded to by the english press and Warburtons MOM performace.

perhaps I should have highlighted the part that made me laugh, as hell we've got the weakest pack in the 6N.

Well with Jenkins and Rees out injured, Jones just coming back from injury, your 2nd rows not showing their best form and trying to work out a good No.8, I don't think you are at your strongest. I know the English lost but their forwards exerted the lions share of pressure and Argentina looked good until they blew it defensively at the end of the first half. You have 1 month to to pull it together before SA.

And you of course know your front 3, your partner for Lawes, your back row, scrum half, out half; centres and replacement for Cueto. We have injurys and you are in dissarray. Ashton aside that was your team against an underpowered welsh XV. When Wales scored the try there was only going to be one winner but like you say its only a warm up.

RubuGuby, I'm more than happy if England don't perform, but only because it gives us a better chance.

Considering the likely out comes of the pools qualifiers and the routes to the later stages France have to be favourites in my mind to go a long way, possibly a final if they hit the ground running.

Im still not writing off Ireland's chances either they can play some great rugby but seem to need a rocket up their backside to do it.

Wales have started to play some very tidy rugby look strong and fast and most importantly for them confident in themselves.

Scotland look like a better side and may be a dark horse but they have a small pool of talent and if they loose Jackson they dont have a good back up ten.

Italy scored a lovely try through Beinvenuti have a great front five and a tireless backrow but do not intimidate their opposition.

England have reverted a bit to the team they were at the start of Johnsons tenure. We know they can play much better rugby, we all saw it but they have failed to do so since they played italy months ago. if they can find their form and qualify as top in their pool then they could do well.

My list of their chances from most likely first, least likely last...!

France
Wales
Ireland
England
Scotland
Italy

typo - RubyGuby

Boston Exile wrote:Well with Jenkins and Rees out injured, Jones just coming back from injury, your 2nd rows not showing their best form and trying to work out a good No.8, I don't think you are at your strongest. I know the English lost but their forwards exerted the lions share of pressure and Argentina looked good until they blew it defensively at the end of the first half. You have 1 month to to pull it together before SA.

You obviously DIDNT watch the welsh warm up games then Boston. Because AWJ was outstanding Yesterday, Charteris was outstanding against England, and we have the choice of either an exciting attacking talent at 8, or a solid secure defensively sound experienced player at 8 (or Andy Powell!). Add to that the Best No 3 in World Rugby, The only 7 in NH rugby who can match the Southern Hemisphere opensides and a 6 who is rapidly improving from good to great and We are pretty happy with our scrum.

Getting Gethin back would be a bonus around the Park, but he wont be missed too much in the tight, his deputy is a perfectly able scrummager

Boston Exile wrote: your 2nd rows not showing their best form and trying to work out a good No.8, I don't think you are at your strongest.

What, AWJ not showing his best form?? In the past 3 games he's showed better form than the past two years! And we have two good No.8's we just aren't sure which of the two Gatland will pick for SA.

Boston Exile wrote: I know the English lost but their forwards exerted the lions share of pressure and Argentina looked good until they blew it defensively at the end of the first half.

Ah right. So that's the only reason we beat Argentina then. Reminds of something similar that Scotland fans have said on the last 4 occassions they've played Wales. Also, what good is posession if you don't use it. Stop hanging onto the posession victory because it's worthless.

I certainly did watch the games, AWJ did play well yesterday, but I've seen him better, I thought Davies was the combination rather than Charteris. The young No.8 does look as if he can become a good player, he is raw though and the RWC might be a bit early for him. The scrum does look decent but the lineout isn't anywhere near as good. The flankers are good I'll grant, but will disagree on one thing, Barclay was crap last year carry a heel injury, he looks to have finally shaken it off and getting his true form back, which is right up there.

Anyway, on my way out now so discussion will have to cease.

nottins_jones wrote:Stop hanging onto the posession victory because it's worthless.

I think i can remember you writting something after the England Wales match at HQ that said how happy you were that we scored three tries to two and you were shouted down for taking a moral victory, "you never beat Wales you only score more points than them" etc by a few England fans then.



Boston mate, I think your posts on this thread are all a bit sour grapes. England can be a good side, we have seen it, but no matter whether these recent games are warm up games with a mish-mash of first choice or second choice players it doesnt matter.

England are lacking the ingredient that makes them a good side, one that everyone struggles to beat and unless they find that key ingredient they will not do so well this world cup.

They have one game to find it in.

If they can put in a convincing performance scoring several tries in dublin next weekend then they will do well, if not they will be lucky to pass the Quarter finals at best.

Maesteg - If you look at my original post I attempted to give an honest opinion as to each of the sides, the good things I saw about each and some exposure they have. In Wales' case they have confused me because I don't see their forwards as having done that well, but the backs have executed really well on relatively few chances and hence they have won 2 of their games quite notably. If they can gel a decent pack together they could go some but from the warm up games they look exposed up front.

Why the sour grapes? Like RubyGuby you think I am an English and just trying to wind people up? I'm Scots and try to be objective, as I hope my posting history would testify to, but that doesn't seem to be appreciated.

This has been a very disappointing experience, and I don't really care if 500 posters come on moaning that their team has been hard done by. I reported only on what I saw without bias or malice and I stick by it. I had hoped this board was going improve on the old 606 but maybe it's not going to work out.

If they can put in a convincing performance scoring several tries in dublin next weekend then they will do well, if not they will be lucky to pass the Quarter finals at best..


Masteg:I see where you are coming from about England putting a good performance, But, it is not nessasary(spelling)tries that win games it is who scores the most points.(see England - Wales first game)

Boston - apologies if you are offended - don't be. I think what welsh posters are saying is that we are well aware that for the 2 England games we have had a poor front row. Against one of the best packs in the world we more than held our own against Argentina with Adam and Hibbard in the front row. Additionally, we have arguably been the best NH in the warm ups side at fielding loose ball at the breakdown where we completely mullered England and where the game was probably won and lost. All these issues seemed to be glossed over by non welsh fans. My issue is that England and other countrys rightly assume that when the likes of Ashton etc return they will be stronger. All we are asking is for the same to be afforded to Wales when Adam and a strong hooker returns. That aside our lineout remains in dissarray but I would argue that our forwards are in better shape than many attest to. On here someone mentions the ferocious Ireland backrow which is potentialy lethal. Lets not forget that back row played in Cardiff and were largely anonomous. Enjoy the debates, I think it's good when it gets a little frenetic. We are allowed to differ and disagree on things as we are all passionate about our sports. Don't let that put you off from posting -

Definitely France.

Wales seem to be building nicely. I think they have found a good balance.

The English squad looks uninspiring. Actually fairly depressing to be honest.

Just remember folks, these matches are practise. No matter how they are all gussied up as 'tests', the coaches use them as practise. The real thing starts in 17 days. Then we will all know whether:
Ireland are too old, or not
England can link to their backs rather than play ten man Rugby
Scotland can harness their cussedness and grit and do some real damage
Wales and Gatland really do have a plan
France and Livremont really do have a plan
Boks are too old, or not
Wallabies have forwards, or not
The ABs are the creme de la creme, or not
And so on.

But in the meantime this is all practise: http://alleniversonpractice.com/allen-iverson-practice-video-with-counter

maestegmafia wrote:

nottins_jones wrote:Stop hanging onto the posession victory because it's worthless.

I think i can remember you writting something after the England Wales match at HQ that said how happy you were that we scored three tries to two and you were shouted down for taking a moral victory, "you never beat Wales you only score more points than them" etc by a few England fans then.

No maes, I don't think that happened. I didn't write "after the England Wales match at HQ that said how happy you were that we scored three tries to two.." or anything of the sort. I did however claim the 'moral victory' to make fun of nottins because he's a fan of the Welsh moral victory myth. I was joking around. I weren't shouted down either but nottins took the bait and it also seems you were fooled by it too. Added bonus that is.

Sorry you lost me.

Must have been someone else.

Actually, a lot of Welsh posters mentioned that we'd scored three to two and had superior fitness levels. I felt they all made a big deal out of it when it weren't really necessary to.

Boston Exile wrote:

Boston Exile - I tend to agree with your analysis of each of the teams. All have some strengths and some weaknesses. If the Welsh think their pack has been that good in the warm up games, then so be it. I disagree. (Now they will have a go at me), I think once they have their first choice front row back, they will be a lot stronger, but on performace so far I think they were quite weak.

It seems strange how some nations can not have a reasonable debate about areas their team may need to work on. It usually is the same two countries who become so blinkered that debate becomes impossible - they even end up calling you English lol

Risky - people tend to get a little irate because England suggest that they will be better with Ashton which of course is understandable, however everyone seems happy to comment on our weak forwards and how poor they are without suggesting that we have a strong front row to return as they did against Argentina where they more than held their own. Here's the crux, who is actually the worse, Englands 1st XV offensive line minus Ashton or the welsh forwards in the set piece. The answer is that they were both poor. However the thrust is that everything will be fine and dandy when Ashton returns yet Wales will still have a poor set of forwards. The same poor forwards that dominated the loose against England.

[quote="Boston Exile"]
Wales' forwards have not impressed in the warm ups and are arguably the weakest of the 6N teams. /quote]
Cannot think of a Scottish forward that I would want to swap for one of ours,to be honest.Our line-out has been pants for 40 years.3rd & 4th choice hookers havent helped matters though the experience can only have benefited them.
Wouldnt mind Lawes and Harinordiquy and possibly Thompson!

We did not go backwards in the scrum against one of the best scrummaging teams in the world when Adam, Hibbard and James played together

Haven't watched all that much rugby this August, watch both England games, the Scotland/Ireland game and then highlights of all three games this weekend.

From what I have seen and read France have been the best team, so I voted for them. Wales have been significantly more positive than they have been in recent times, England and Ireland have disappointed, Scotland have won both their games without setting the world on fire and Italy showed some positive signs (although I only saw the highlights of their game against Scotland).

I think Scotland and Argentina will make it tough for England, but I think we'll have enough to top the pool. I'm more worried about France than I was, but I think there's just a coin toss in it. I expect Scotland to come second and lose to New Zealand.

I still think with Wales' draw they'll find it tough. Play like they did in the second test against England against South Africa and they'll get thrashed in my opinion - they were let off by a completely woeful attacking game by England. They have a couple of tough games against Fiji and Samoa, and they'll be under pressure if they lose to South Africa.

Ireland have chopped and changed a bit in their 3 games, but I think their strongest team should be enough to see off Italy and then they only have to beat one of Australia or South Africa to make the semi-final, so the semi-finals could definitely be on for them. Italy could spring an upset, but it would be just that if they made it into the quarters.

RubyGuby - do you not see the irony - you have a go at the English for them saying things will get better when their strike runner gets back and in the same breath do exactly the same for the Welsh front row. You can not have it both ways

In the current games, Wales have had a poor set piece set of forwards (overall), but were getting better.

Anyway, at least us Scottish can look objectively at our team and highlight where we need to improve

Riskysports wrote:RubyGuby - do you not see the irony - you have a go at the English for them saying things will get better when their strike runner gets back and in the same breath do exactly the same for the Welsh front row. You can not have it both ways

In the current games, Wales have had a poor set piece set of forwards (overall), but were getting better.

Anyway, at least us Scottish can look objectively at our team and highlight where we need to improve

Thats the point tough Risky - we knew that our front row would be in trouble against the English pack - We haven't got an able replacement for Adam Jones. We also knew that our back row will compete with anyone, and that our second row is much improved over recent World Cups too.

So for Argentina we get Adam Jones back, and immediately our scrum stabilises (against a pack just as fearsome, if not more so, as the English pack), even though we are playing a 2nd string back row. So why shouldnt we be confident that our pack will do OK? We knew what the problem was, we knew what would fix it, and we were proved correct!

Our only real worry in the forwards is the lack of depth at 2, 3 & 7 - we have effectively only ONE test class player in each shirt available to us.

Based on the warm-up games...France, obviously. But i think you'll find these warm-up games will have little bearing on what happens out in NZ. England have pretty much been written-off after losing at the MS, but they were missing a lot of key 1st team players (Croft, Palmer, Youngs, Hartley, Ashton). Also, as we know there has been little creativity of late - a few changes could really get the side playing in a more clinical fashion. Can't see MJ giving up Hape et al, though.

Based on this whole year, I'd back France, England and Ireland to be the most dominant.

So all of a sudden Croft and Palmer are first choice? Funny how they weren't when they played Wales in the first fixture.. As for Hartley, I think Thompson is far superior in all hooker aspects.

nottins_jones wrote:So all of a sudden Croft and Palmer are first choice? Funny how they weren't when they played Wales in the first fixture.. As for Hartley, I think Thompson is far superior in all hooker aspects.

The expression "whistling in the dark" comes to mind.They are in turmoil.We are in trouble from injuries,England are in a pickle through poor selection.