John Gallagher

First topic message reminder :

In the last few weeks we English have been subjected to Wum and ridicule regarding the inclusion of NZ born players in our squad.
I would just like to ask the kiwi's and GG on here if they think NZ would have won the World Cup (lite) without the services of the Londoner John Gallagher?
His record in that home competition was very impressive. He only played 18 matches for the All Blacks, but still managed 13 tries – including five in the 1987 tournament.

I recon Hape and his mates need to up it quite a bit in order to repay Blighty for lending the South Londoner to NZ , what do you think?

damngoodOvalball wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:He clearly was trained in NZ and only ended up playing for England due to going on holiday with his Kiwi girlfriend.

I'm not sure why you are still debating this point. It's just completely obvious. Unless you're suggesting that he was one of the few players to go through the junior ABs programme and not manage to learn anything; then mystically became an international lock on the basis of his dabbling in swimming and cricket and american football.

Let me spell it out for you; MJ played rugby to a high level (county, age grade England, club etc) in England. He dabbled in other sports as people who like sport are prone to do. He went to NZ, ostensibly on a gap year to play rugby, they saw his talent and he stayed for another season representing the ABs school team because the Englishman was better than any of the Kiwi youths available. Another reason for staying on was because he had started going out with the daughter of the owners of the farm he was staying on whilst in NZ. He returned to England, with her to get a career in a bank (rugby was still amateur in the NH) ie not on holiday, and to continue playing for his beloved Leicester.

Now, I am clearly not debating (see previous posts) that his experience in NZ helped to broaden his game, as any such experience would (the same can be said of kiwi nationals coming to play in the AP). I am debating your assertations that MJ was an American footballer who was told about rugby by Colin Meads and persuaded to go down to NZ where he was taught abut rugby and sent back two years later as the finished article and ready to take over the England captaincy. That is just you taking your well worn seat in cloud cuckoo land and spouting your make believe twaddle! In your head its like a rugby version of the karate kid with Colin Meads playing the part of Mr Miagi.

I think you under-estimate just how important the development he gained in NZ was. And how coincidental his return to England was.

I stand by my original point. He was trained in New Zealand for you. Anyone with a sense of perspective will concur on this point.

I have definitely under-estimated the power of creativity in your imagination.

Try this - your mind seems to be kind of like a disney film where you have a kindly cartoon bird on your shoulder tweeting the true version of Martin Johnson's autobiography, as you skip around the Utopia that is NZ where nothing bad ever happens and everyone loves you! After the AB's have won the Webb Ellis cup your heroes drag you out of the VIP area in the stand because all the players owe you so much for defending them on 606. They even give you a replica kit to wear for the photos! After which you all happilly pelt the opposition fans with glass bottles in a friendly manner as is the ancient tribal custom as sponsored by Adidas. Predictably, you all live happily ever after far far away from the evil British Empire.

The end.

Wow. My imagination? That was epic.

Glad you enjoyed it

Anyway, as certain posters are fond of reminding us. '87 was in the amateur era. Surely player migration in that time was based on personal preferences rather than the more recent mercenary motivation.

amateur.....shamateur.

JG tried to join the Met, his application was deferred so that he could go to play rugby in NZ for a couple of years. Whilst in NZ he joined the cops to earn some taxable income and gain some experience on the beat. The AB's lost their other Englishman (JS) and needed a replacement. The rest is history.

Fairly unlikely to Manu Tuilagi out on a community constable beat though aren't we? for starters I bet the 180 day visa he was on wouldn't have allowed it.

Nice to see you mention that the '87 ABs won the RWC in an era that wasn't amateur though. I'm sure you'll be leaping in to put other posters right when they come up with that little gem from now on. Think of that, not only did the ABs win it, but they won it whilst holding down jobs too. Makes you think. Do you reckon England would have come through in '03 if they had full time jobs too?

Probably not but the fact that he was 14 when he arrived here is clearly the overriding factor which would have prevented Manu from joining the force.

I believe you have to be 18 to be a cop

Steady on. But I take your point.

I've seen a CSO do something once. He tried to reprimand me for crossing against the lights at the St George monument round about near St John's wood. He ran across the road against the lights to tell me about it. I swear it beggared belief.

Didnt realise that they had made jay walking a crime in the UK? Finally, the coalition have slipped up and got something wrong....

GG, you put me in mind of the erstwhile Mikeyphil, he too had a strong dislike for all things English and Leicester in particular. You aren't the one and the same are you?

tigerleghorn wrote:GG, you put me in mind of the erstwhile Mikeyphil, he too had a strong dislike for all things English and Leicester in particular. You aren't the one and the same are you?

MikeyPhil didn't much like NZ either from memory

Kiwireddevil wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:GG, you put me in mind of the erstwhile Mikeyphil, he too had a strong dislike for all things English and Leicester in particular. You aren't the one and the same are you?

MikeyPhil didn't much like NZ either from memory

I was under the impression that Mikey and his numerous alter egos reserved their venom exclusively for the English, could be wrong mind.

tigerleghorn wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:GG, you put me in mind of the erstwhile Mikeyphil, he too had a strong dislike for all things English and Leicester in particular. You aren't the one and the same are you?

MikeyPhil didn't much like NZ either from memory

I was under the impression that Mikey and his numerous alter egos reserved their venom exclusively for the English, could be wrong mind.

I let myself get sucked into an argument with him once back in the day. He wasn't fond of the English true, but anyone who dared upset the natural order of things by beating scoring more points than Wales ...

tigerleghorn wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:GG, you put me in mind of the erstwhile Mikeyphil, he too had a strong dislike for all things English and Leicester in particular. You aren't the one and the same are you?

MikeyPhil didn't much like NZ either from memory

I was under the impression that Mikey and his numerous alter egos reserved their venom exclusively for the English, could be wrong mind.

I think Kiwi might be right there. Mikeyphil didnt discrimate with his vitriol. That said, Whilst England was the Bullseye, NZ was probably only a double 2.

You know where you are when you hear a darts metaphor.

Mikey was much more vitrilolic and serious than GG, and hid behind multipel accounts (even posting agreeing with himself) and worshipped Paul Ackford. He was utterly humourless.
GG often mocks Wales too, Mikey regulalry praised them and Magners rugby (almost as if he were Welsh...)
The only thing he had in common with GG was a fundamental belief that whatever they said was right and a complete inability to be swayed by reasoned argument, logic, facts, statistcis, opinion, philosphy or cash offers.

Mikey was a very special case, not just a WUM who enjoyed a good argument but an individual with a significant personality disorder.

damngoodOvalball wrote:I have definitely under-estimated the power of creativity in your imagination.

Try this - your mind seems to be kind of like a disney film where you have a kindly cartoon bird on your shoulder tweeting the true version of Martin Johnson's autobiography, as you skip around the Utopia that is NZ where nothing bad ever happens and everyone loves you! After the AB's have won the Webb Ellis cup your heroes drag you out of the VIP area in the stand because all the players owe you so much for defending them on 606. They even give you a replica kit to wear for the photos! After which you all happilly pelt the opposition fans with glass bottles in a friendly manner as is the ancient tribal custom as sponsored by Adidas. Predictably, you all live happily ever after far far away from the evil British Empire.

The end.

Go read Tom Woods biography then, and ask Martin Johnson why he favours players who played in New Zealand.
Sometimes I suspect TGG may be Martin Johnson, he didnt take Dalliligo seriously either.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Mikey was much more vitrilolic and serious than GG, and hid behind multipel accounts (even posting agreeing with himself) and worshipped Paul Ackford. He was utterly humourless.
The only thing he had in common with GG was a fundamental belief that whatever they said was right and a complete inability to be swayed by reasoned argument, logic, facts, statistcis, opinion, philosphy or cash offers.

Well to be fair, nobody's offered cash yet.

There was regular suggestion on 606 that various members would club together for an airfare back the Noo Zulind, but it never materialised.

Ahhh the great Kipper....sorry lads, the previous 40 odd posts seem to have degenerated this thread into something else but thought I would leave a comment on JG

He, along with JK and Iceman (John Kirwan and Michael Jones) are the sole reasons I fell in love with the game of Rugby. Two standout tries I can recall from Kipper. In 88 v Australia and 89 v Ireland at Lansdowne Road, utter brilliance from as slick a runner as there has ever been.

I was a distraught 10 year old when he announced he was off to Leeds, horrible move and one which meant that we were left with bloody Kieran Crowley as our only fullback of note (until John Timu). Not only that, it truly dawned on me that Wellington was left with a truly dire team, only Timo Tagaloa and Murray Pierce were of international standard as I recall after Kipper's departure. In fact, me and my mate used to heap a lot of Poopie onto the then Wellington hooker, Glen Fraser (as he mowed my mate's lawn and his vocation of the time was the lawn mower man), about how crap Wellington was now that JG was gone....

Anyway, I digress. JG was a legend and a big reason why I fell in love with the game. Even after he was a dunce in League, I still privately hoped he'd come back to NZ.....

Yeah, I recall the days when we all thought that Union was going to have its heart ripped out by the un-matchable professional contracts offered in League.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yeah, I recall the days when we all thought that Union was going to have its heart ripped out by the un-matchable professional contracts offered in League.

I always think if Ridgey had have held on a bit until after JG signed we would have been fine at FB. Ridgey would have been a great All Black with his confidence and kicking skills. However, he said he knew nothing of JG's contract and was sure there was no way to get ahead of him so he went to Manly. Zinny was perilously close to going to Manly also. In fact, he had actually signed with them but went back on the contract...that would have been tragic.

Apart from that though, League probably did Union a favour as although Darryl Halligan was an absolute diamond find for League (going nowhere for Waikato), he set the trend for the Aussie clubs picking off the good goalkickers in Union and in doing so, relieved NZ Rugby of one of the worst players of all time, in Eoin Crossan

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yeah, I recall the days when we all thought that Union was going to have its heart ripped out by the un-matchable professional contracts offered in League.

Yep Union was saved by the TV pulling power of England and clever marketing of change shirts.

I recall England were going through a lull at the time and considering giving the game up altogether.

It was probably the entertainment and legacy offered by the All Blacks that held the identity of the sport together, along with the clever invention of the rugby world cup by New Zealand to act as a focal point for the sport, following by our devious generosity in ensuring it was shared around to the extent that even the NH got a chance to "win" it, and SA got to "win" it to celebrate their return to international sport etc. etc.

You have been very generous over the years. I wonder which side will benefit from the traditional NZ good will choke this time around.

damngoodOvalball wrote:You have been very generous over the years. I wonder which side will benefit from the traditional NZ good will choke this time around.

I think it will largely depend on what happens in the other pools Oval.

Just as longs as the ABs and England top their respective pools. I would rather give someone else the honour of knocking NZ out!

For the first time ever I might be sitting down for an AB/France game nervously hoping that the AB's win.....

I think youll find it was clever marketting by the RFU dominated RFU that lked to the WC being shared around ensuring that the host nation SA won that time under iconic captain Matt Damon ( or was it DiCaprio?) and Morgan Freemans leadership. The resulting fly on the wall documtary helped raise the global awareness of the game, although it brush off the IRBS role in poisoning the All Blacks.
Forward to 2003 and once again the RFU led IRB came up trumps by ensuring their man Barnes put New Zealand out and enabbled our Jonnny to beome the first man to win a world cup single handedly with his foot. Revenues again raised in the biggest world market for rugby products, wealthy English homosexuals.

Using this hard earned money the RFU have gone on to bring over world class talents who have enriched the game of Union from League, such as : Paul Henry, Les the Volcano, Farrel Senior, and even redefined wing play with the discovery of the supreme skills of Hape. It was a bit underghand of them to fund the imposition of Sean Edwards on the WRU though.

Its a pity fpor rugby that someone broke the RFUs leadership, itll go down the pan without them trust me. Pretty soon sides will only be able to afford 13 players and the scrum will die without England bravely ensuring eveery game is 70 minutes of standing around waiting for one to be reset.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I think youll find it was clever marketting by the RFU dominated RFU that lked to the WC being shared around ensuring that the host nation SA won that time under iconic captain Matt Damon ( or was it DiCaprio?) and Morgan Freemans leadership. The resulting fly on the wall documtary helped raise the global awareness of the game, although it brush off the IRBS role in poisoning the All Blacks.
Forward to 2003 and once again the RFU led IRB came up trumps by ensuring their man Barnes put New Zealand out and enabbled our Jonnny to beome the first man to win a world cup single handedly with his foot. Revenues again raised in the biggest world market for rugby products, wealthy English homosexuals.

Using this hard earned money the RFU have gone on to bring over world class talents who have enriched the game of Union from League, such as : Paul Henry, Les the Volcano, Farrel Senior, and even redefined wing play with the discovery of the supreme skills of Hape. It was a bit underghand of them to fund the imposition of Sean Edwards on the WRU though.

Its a pity fpor rugby that someone broke the RFUs leadership, itll go down the pan without them trust me. Pretty soon sides will only be able to afford 13 players and the scrum will die without England bravely ensuring eveery game is 70 minutes of standing around waiting for one to be reset.

Seabiscuit, put the beer down and back away from keyboard.

GG that's one of the most sensible posts you've made for a while.
A cup of tea for Seabiscuit is required I think.

I played against JG in a chairty rugby match for an injured police man, top bloke but he was dire at rl. Ridhe and botica on the other hand were excellent

There was a good article about Jonno down under in the Telegraph recently. He met his (now wife) Kiwi girlfriend while in NZ (obviously) and he was actively recruited by a Kiwi coach who wrote letters to all the players in the England age grade team of which Jonno was member. This was prompted by the fact that the England team in question had just beaten both Australia and NZ in a round-robin tournament. How NZ must wish they could have kept him!

I think NZ had better options.

Must be true. How many of the "better options" have a RWC winners medal ?

I'll try and find the article, it really was interesting and shed a lot of light on why he went and how desperate they were to keep him.

Here's the article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8742563/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-How-Martin-Johnson-grew-from-being-a-mild-young-man-to-the-enforcer-of-English-rugby.html

Honestly, Kiwis searching the world for rugby talent to turn into All Blacks! Outrageous!

"The SA side of 87 were a lot better than the french team who battered the ab's in nantes "


Never knew that SA had a rugby side in 1987! But in all seriousness though, if SA were allowed to play in that 1987 tournament, they could have been a stronger side than they were in 1986 V the Cavaliers, as they could have had the services of former Irish Scrum - Half John Robbie, as well as having a whole range of big athletic back-row forwards with which to choose from. Also in the backs, SA could have picked a better backline in 1987 than they did for the Cavaliers 1986 series.

Never knew SA had a Rugby team in 1987?

Jesus man, have you never heard of Naas Botha or Danie Gerber? Possibly two of the best of their generation.

Botha would have had Carter on toast in a kicking dual!

tigerleghorn wrote:Never knew SA had a Rugby team in 1987?

Jesus man, have you never heard of Naas Botha or Danie Gerber? Possibly two of the best of their generation.

Botha would have had Carter on toast in a kicking dual!

Of course I have heard and also seen these 2 great South African rugby stars of the lost generation due to Apartheid as I still have the 2 hours videotape of the 1986 Cavaliers Rebel Tour of South Africa in which South Africa had an awesome team containing fantastic players who would have walked into any of the other World Rugby Teams at that time. Someone like the massive 6ft 3 18 stone prop Flippie Van Der Merwe or the colossal 6ft 6 second row lock Louis Moolman would have been welcolmed with open arms by a team containing a small and lightweight pack of forwards such as what Scotland had in 1987 when they lost in wet and windy conditions to England at Twickenham due to being outmuscled in the scrums by England's heavier pack which contained the Number 8 juggernaut Dean Richards and England's tall 6ft 7 second row Steve Bainbridge who won plenty of ball in the lineouts, as he easily overshadowed and outjumped his much smaller and shorter Scottish opponent the 6ft 4 Number 8 Iain Paxton who was moved into Scotland's second row in that year's Five Nations championship.

Anyway, what am trying to get at is that in 1987 South Africa didn't have an Official National Rugby Team as such since the Springboks didn't play against another rugby nation. Apparently, after the Cavaliers toured in 1986, there was some talk/rumours flying around rugby circles that some of the leading Wallaby players at that time such as Andrew Slack were considering organising an unofficial Australian tour of South Africa. However any chances of that happening were all eventually quashed and disappeared for good once the IRB threatened South Africa with expulsion from its Board Membership should such a tour have taken place in a few months or weeks before the start of the inaugural Rugby World Cup in 1987.