Kuchar fails to get relief!

Anyone watch him trying to bend the rules by seeking relief at the 16th hole last evening?

It's situations like this that makes me lose all respect for professionals. As far as I'm concerned, he tried to cheat his way out of a situation his bad shot put him into.

Basically, his t-shot finished hard up against the base of a wall. He tried to claim relief by claiming his chances had been reduced of successfully bouncing the ball back off the wall (thereby avoiding a penalty shot) because one of his feet would have to rest on a partially exposed drain cover.

Quite apart from the uneveness of the wall, I was as puzzled as the rules guy as to how exactly he was going to execute such a shot even with a perfect stance!

I was also disgusted by the length of time he tried to argue his case with the rules ref. He clearly demonstrated no respect for either him or the spirit of the game.

Gael, I saw a little bit of this but didn't see the outcome. Did the second opinion tell him to get stuffed too?

1GG ... yes. The thing is that even if he'd had a perfect stance for such an attempt, the ball was so close to the wall that I don't believe he could have avoided the double-hit which of course would in itself had rendered a penalty shot with the distinct possibility of the ball remaining more or less in its original position.

Mind you, I'm wondering if all this toing and froing was just all a smokescreen to browbeat the ref into allowing him a drop from the other side of the wall! Even allowing for angles, it looked to me as if the ball was closer to the pin. If so, it worked because he managed to get up and down from there!

The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

Mercurio wrote:The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

So he's trying to cheat the sponsors out of money as well?

SmithersJones wrote:

Mercurio wrote:The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

So he's trying to cheat the sponsors out of money as well?

How would he do that?

Mercurio wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

Mercurio wrote:The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

So he's trying to cheat the sponsors out of money as well?

How would he do that?

By cheating his way to a lower score, and therefore more prizemoney than he ought to be entitled to. Rather that it being in mitigation, I feel it makes it worse. And of course as well as the sponsors, he's cheating those below him on the leaderboard out of money too.

SmithersJones wrote:

Mercurio wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

Mercurio wrote:The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

So he's trying to cheat the sponsors out of money as well?

How would he do that?

By cheating his way to a lower score, and therefore more prizemoney than he ought to be entitled to. Rather that it being in mitigation, I feel it makes it worse. And of course as well as the sponsors, he's cheating those below him on the leaderboard out of money too.

That hasn't answered my question. Again, how would he be cheating money out of the sponsors.

The sponsors pay $Xm if he doesn't try to claim relief.

The sponsors pay the same $Xm, if he successfully claims relief.

Where's he cheated money out of them?

Mercurio wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

Mercurio wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

Mercurio wrote:The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

So he's trying to cheat the sponsors out of money as well?

How would he do that?

By cheating his way to a lower score, and therefore more prizemoney than he ought to be entitled to. Rather that it being in mitigation, I feel it makes it worse. And of course as well as the sponsors, he's cheating those below him on the leaderboard out of money too.

That hasn't answered my question. Again, how would he be cheating money out of the sponsors.

The sponsors pay $Xm if he doesn't try to claim relief.

The sponsors pay the same $Xm, if he successfully claims relief.

Where's he cheated money out of them?

I suppose his fellow professionals. If that meant he finished higher then he may be forcing prize money to be split more than it should. But yes, he's certainly not cheating the sponsors out of money, the purse is set for the event, they'll pay that in total whatever.

Semantics. The point is he's not just cheating at the game, he's gaining money from it which surely is tantamount to theft. (Seems to be a theme on here today, excusing theft).

I watched the incident too and thought it was outrageous that he was trying it on.

Funniest part for me though was the shot that led to him being up hard against the wall. A clearly audible "OH DEAR" that even the commentators laughed about.

Mercurio wrote:The one thing I'll say in defence of Kuchar is that golf is his career, not a hobby like for the rest of us.

Nevertheless, aren't the professionals obliged to play within the spirit of the game as dictated by the game's etiquette code?

Kuchar comes across (at least to me anyway) as being a nicey nice guy, always smiling but I saw another side to him last night and I began to wonder if there was history between him and the first ref. He was very animated in his manner, one might almost say, argumentative. I began to wonder if this was a USGA ref, in other words, an amateur!

SmithersJones wrote:Semantics. The point is he's not just cheating at the game, he's gaining money from it which surely is tantamount to theft. (Seems to be a theme on here today, excusing theft).

Why do people say 'Semantics' as if that gives them a get-out?

Rather than saying 'Semantics', how about you correctly say what you're trying to say?

Shoddy standards.

As an aside, was this wall a boundary wall?

I'm just wondering why MK didn't get relief from an immovable obstruction.

It wasn't a boundary wall - but I got the impression it was an integral part of the course so no direct relief

SmithersJones wrote:Semantics. The point is he's not just cheating at the game, he's gaining money from it which surely is tantamount to theft. (Seems to be a theme on here today, excusing theft).

I suppose you mean me ,'dewsweeper,' that is.

Twice now ,hiding behind the anonymity of this board, you have intimated that I am a thief.You really are a charming fellow.
Not an M.P. by any chance?

dewsweeper. Speaking as a member, not an admin, I'd like to welcome you to the forum as I see you are new here. Take your time to settle in, but I do suggest you read the forum before getting into p!ssing contests with other posters. We are a fairly laid back group here in the golf section - and you wouldn't be the first new poster to come in all guns blazing with first posts only to realize later that we are a pretty friendly bunch at the end of the day.

It's ironic you come along and talk about established poster here hiding behind the anonymity of forums - yet you haven't really introduced yourself.

Your opinion is just as good as anyone else here and there is no rule that says you have to have x hundred posts before your opinions are taken seriously - but just take a day or two to settle in before wading in too deeply - unless you want to be known as an anonymous keyboard warrior yourself right from the start

Never saw the incident myself, but cannot see all the fuss to be honest. He's not the first nor will he be the last to try things such as this, he did it in the second round so it's not like he's done something that has won him the tournament. You can't win on the 1st or 2nd day.

Even if he had got the ruling his way then fine good luck to him its the officials decision and if you don't ask you don't get

Maverick wrote:Never saw the incident myself, but cannot see all the fuss to be honest. He's not the first nor will he be the last to try things such as this, he did it in the second round so it's not like he's done something that has won him the tournament. You can't win on the 1st or 2nd day.

Even if he had got the ruling his way then fine good luck to him its the officials decision and if you don't ask you don't get

What he said.

Davie wrote:dewsweeper. Speaking as a member, not an admin, I'd like to welcome you to the forum as I see you are new here. Take your time to settle in, but I do suggest you read the forum before getting into p!ssing contests with other posters. We are a fairly laid back group here in the golf section - and you wouldn't be the first new poster to come in all guns blazing with first posts only to realize later that we are a pretty friendly bunch at the end of the day.

It's ironic you come along and talk about established poster here hiding behind the anonymity of forums - yet you haven't really introduced yourself.

Your opinion is just as good as anyone else here and there is no rule that says you have to have x hundred posts before your opinions are taken seriously - but just take a day or two to settle in before wading in too deeply - unless you want to be known as an anonymous keyboard warrior yourself right from the start

Thanks for your comments.I do not feel like a new poster,I have been on this board since the original board at 606 closed,and I was there for a few years.
I read the boards daily ,just golf and am well aware of the traits of some posters.Nevertheless I still feel the responses from some to my original post re-streaming were unessarily offensive,it may be an age thing.I do not post often purely because of your so called 'pissing contest' syndrome,again I probably come over as an' old fart'

Completely agree with Gael on this. I appreciate that all pro's get a ruling on pretty much everything, and I'm assuming they all know what the ruling should be, they're either a) chancing their arm for a free/beneficial drop, or b) covering themselves against a DQ. I have no problem with this.

However...... the length of time Kuchar took was unfair on his fellow competitors (who were surely waiting on the tee), and in my opinion, pretty close to cheating. He asked the question of the official, fair enough, but then accept it with good grace and move on. The thing I really don't get, and maybe someone can help me here, is what he was claiming he was trying to do in order to get the free drop? As Gael says, the most likely outcome I could see from attempting the shot off the wall was a double hit, and at best he could have rebounded back far enough to play his 3rd over the wall..... which he could also achieve by taking a penalty drop. I just don't get it?

The commentary team also seemed to think the shot was "unlucky" to finish against the wall. Personally, I prefer to save luck for my good shots, bad shots don't deserve any luck.

Well said Tiler.
Didn't see it, saw the discussion but couldn't tell what was going on at the time.
Officials have a part to play in moving play along as well as the player, and hopefully Kuchar and the rules guy (wonder who it was? - they're usually very respectful of Tour officials) was read the riot act when he finished.

Mav

Not sure I understand you. Surely in any stroke play competition what you score in the 1st or 2nd round is just as relevant to where you finish as your score in the 3rd or 4th round ....

Cheers Kwini. Was sat watching the golf with the missus (a non-golfer), struggling to explain what Kuchar was up to. I think even she could see the flaws in his argument!

Good Walk what I mean is something that the great Nicklaus once said, regardless of my score in the first or 2nd round is at that point I can't lose the tournament provided I make the cut. Then it's all guns going to go low in 3 & 4 and win the thing.

What I mean is would Kuchar getting free relief thus saving 1 shot have made such a difference in the 2nd round. No it wouldn't had he done it on the 72nd hole maybe thats another matter.

Don't have a problem with it and as Diggers has said on another thread with reference to something else but is quite apparent on this thread if we call Kuchar a cheat for this then you have to say Seve was worse

Mav

Ref Diggers' point on Kwini's thread, I would say Seve sailed a bit close to the wind at times, but don't want to open up that can of worms......

Re Kuchar, I have no problem with him asking the question, even if I do think it was a little cheeky, it's the amount of time he took pleading his case. Plus I just don't see what he was arguing about with respect to the shot he was trying to play which would have given him the free relief. I don't see how playing the shot into the wall would have helped him, other than a contrived shot to allow relief from the drain pipe. Which is cheating, whichever way you look at it.

I don't think it particularly changes my opinion on Kuchar (or Seve), the right decision was made after all. Just don't think it was necessary.

Difference between Kuchar and Seve is that you can guarantee that Seve would have pulled off that shot against the wall!

Didn't see the incident last night, but remember seeing the great Sevvy Ballesteros, on many occasions trying to bend the rules, to improve impossible lies. The one that stands out in my mind is, if he was playing the shot left handed then he would have got a free drop, but playing right handed no free drop, so he argued for over 20 Min's(2 groups had to play through), that it was his intention to play his next shot left handed, at that point I walked away in discuss

dewsweeper wrote:

Davie wrote:dewsweeper. Speaking as a member, not an admin, I'd like to welcome you to the forum as I see you are new here. Take your time to settle in, but I do suggest you read the forum before getting into p!ssing contests with other posters. We are a fairly laid back group here in the golf section - and you wouldn't be the first new poster to come in all guns blazing with first posts only to realize later that we are a pretty friendly bunch at the end of the day.

It's ironic you come along and talk about established poster here hiding behind the anonymity of forums - yet you haven't really introduced yourself.

Your opinion is just as good as anyone else here and there is no rule that says you have to have x hundred posts before your opinions are taken seriously - but just take a day or two to settle in before wading in too deeply - unless you want to be known as an anonymous keyboard warrior yourself right from the start

Thanks for your comments.I do not feel like a new poster,I have been on this board since the original board at 606 closed,and I was there for a few years.
I read the boards daily ,just golf and am well aware of the traits of some posters.Nevertheless I still feel the responses from some to my original post re-streaming were unessarily offensive,it may be an age thing.I do not post often purely because of your so called 'pissing contest' syndrome,again I probably come over as an' old fart'

Hi Dewsweeper, good to see you on the forum - I recall your comments on the old 606 and you always came over well. Don't let a few misunderstandings put you off posting because there's not many of us 'Old Farts' left.

In terms of the Kuchar issue I didn't see it but, in my view, the rules are there to be taken advantage of. If that results in spurious time delaying attempts to achieve an unfair advantage then he should be penalised even more; just like faking a trip for a penalty in football.