Could Douglas - Tyson have been different in the USA???

First topic message reminder :

Why do soccer teams play better at home...Obviously because 30,000 fanaticals screaming for you makes your adrenalin pump even more and sometimes helps you find that extra yard to reach the ball ahead of your opponent.....That's why they call it home advantage.....because it's an advantage.

Let's face it had Tyson-Douglas been fought in a Vegas car park in front of 15-20,000 rabid fans screaming for Tyson (which let's face it would have been the scenario) how much more pressure would a well-known mentally fragile and pressured quiiter-Douglas been under!!! How much more adrenalin would Tyson have felt.. and how much encouragement would he have garnered from a excited crowd who'd come to watch him.....

Anyone who has fought knows it lifts you hearing screams of encouragement..brings out something extra.. an urgency etc!!

Never easy fighting in the dragon's den it's why most soccer teams are better at home......

The complete silence Tyson-Douglas was fought in suited the lacking in self confidence Buster.. who I'm sure didn't expect to win but thought I'll try my luck fighting behind the jab and see what happens..slowly building up in confidence through the fight....

Holy could probably beat Tyson anywhere 1994 onwards because he was super-confident..Douglas wasn't??

How much did Tokyo suit Douglas?? and could it or would it have been different in the USA.. ???

Conjecture can however be supported with primary evidence. And the only way Mad Mike gets his decision in Vegas is with Don King's lackeys in the WBC bending over backwards to fix it. Thank goodness the fight was taken out of the USA.

I'm a bit late here, but my personal feeling is that Douglas would have walked away with the belts that night regardless of where the fight was staged; Tokyo, Las Vegas, London, Bognor Regis - it wouldn't have mattered.

I'd echo the thoughts of Jeff and Andy, too; having read 'The last great fight' myself, it's clear that Douglas genuinely believed he could topple Tyson. If I remember correctly, he even told those around him beforehand exactly how he planned to go about it, and his plan turned out to be a carbon copy of what actually happened in the ring that night.

People forget that, even aside from losing his mother, Douglas still had a lot on his plate; he was going through a divorce, and the mother of his eleven year old son was dying of cancer. To him, I think, the fight represented a bolt hole away from his problems, or a shelter from them. Reiterating what the (excellent) book suggests, I think it's clear that Douglas realised that whatever physical pain Tyson could dish out to him was nothing compared to the emotional and mental pain he was feeling at the time. Put simply, while most were terrified before facing Tyson, Douglas had this problem removed somewhat.

As others have said, Douglas was so in the zone that night, I doubt a pro-Tyson crowd would have made him crumble. Similarly, we have to factor in that Tyson was your typical front runner - great when dominating, much less so when things got tough. I'm not sure that a crowd in his favour could make up for those metal shortcomings, and as has been alluded to, it would have to be one hell of a swing, because Douglas was the better fighter that night by a considerable distance.

What he said.

In case anyone is interested in the 'long count' debate in the Tyson vs Douglas fight here is a video showing the counts at the same time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHcbFUTIslI&feature=related

Can't access the video at worl but the long count furore in this is pure BS created by King to try and cheat Douglas out of what he had earned in the ring. Is far from uncommon for refs to pick up their own count when fighters are put down as was the case here and in 20 years as a ref Meryon had done it in this manner with no complaint and indeed did the count in this manner when Tyson was put over, also discounts the probability Douglas looked coherent far earlier than he rose and probably could have risen if required and there was probably not enough time for Mike to finish him in the round.

Don King has pulled some pretty shameless stunts in his career as a promoter but this has to be right up there with his absolute worst, horrible man and shameful his actions have put an asterix against the win in the eyes of many when none is warranted.

jeff you work?

Occasionally

part-timer aye?

No full time, job is not very hard and I'm quite good at it.

give us a clue?

I don't think there was anything dodgy although the video does show the ref stopping Tyson but allowing Douglas to rise but as Rowley said Douglas looks calm and coherent after his knockdown and the ref also knew he had the break straight after whilst Tyson's knockdown was from a heavy combo and when he got up he was wobbly and didn't really protest the decision, leading me to think it was right.

rowley wrote:No full time, job is not very hard and I'm quite good at it.

Are you a private dancer,
A dancer for money,
Any old music will do.

The fact that Aaron Snowell actually had to tell Tyson that he'd been knocked out a minute or two after it happened says it all. This whole 'Meyran let Douglas continue but not Tyson' issue is about as ridiculous as it gets, nearly as bad as the 'long count' itself. Douglas was in coherent and in control of himself when he got up - Tyson was in the middle of next week. He would have been knocked out in an even more sickening manner had Meyran let him continue.

It was 93/4 at least when he rose so don't kid yourself he wasn't hurt..

Don't re-write history it was a great shot!

And don't let us forget that he (Tyson)was scrambling about on all fours looking for his gumshield, he must have been very concussed.

Wouldn't deny he was hurt Truss, few get clocked clean my Mike without being, but in the sport there is a big difference between being hurt and being on dream street and whilst I would fully agree Buster was the former, can't accept he was anywhere near the latter. Couple this with the lack of time left in the round and think if the ref picks the count up correctly he rises and gets through to the break.

Not arguing with you about that...Not a Tyson fan...

Just disagreeing with the Douglas could've got up at anytime garbage..

Don't be pedantic ..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It was 93/4 at least when he rose so don't kid yourself he wasn't hurt..

Don't re-write history it was a great shot!

Jeez Truss, that is a hell of a long count then. They fought in 1990. He must have been quite badly hurt.

Not sure if the pedantic comment was directed at me but hey ho, was not claiming he could get up anytime was merely stating was the count carried out as it should have been he could have got up, an age since I watched it but if memory serves Douglas bangs on the canvas fairly early in the count which to me suggests he had his wits about him enough to be frustrated to have been put over. Whether he could have risen anytime is moot and as far as I can see is something nobody has claimed, what people have claimed is he could have risen in time were the count done correctly, which I personally stand by and the evidence would appear to support.

Chris sums up my views on this fight to a T. Personally, I think that the Douglas that turned up that night would have given any heavy in history fits. No doubt Tyson was under-prepared etc, but always thought it a shame that that distracted from a superb display from Douglas.

To answer the original question... yes home town obviously helps, but Douglas was in a zone, and i don't think it would have made a difference on this occasion.

That's good......

Would never have given Holy fits in Tokyo or anywhere else..Holy was too game..in my opinion

Pedantic was aimed at the guy who said Tyson was on the floor picking up his gumshield.............

No one's arguing how it finished.

I'm not helping you out today T, you're on your own with this one.

Okay...off you go!

Sure thing Daddi-o, I'm off to grab me a root beer from the cooler, then get ready to watch the "soccer".PS do remember the book tip...it's full of those things called... .darn,what are they?.... ah yes, "Facts".

Truss, the bloated douglas that turned up against holy, would have been sparked inside a round by tyson in tokyo, imo.

I watched Tyson Douglas again quite recently, and Douglas was brilliant on the night... seemd to me like the only night in his career where he'd really trained and really gave a sh*t, for the reasons discussed. Can't say for sure that he would have beaten a prime holy that night obviously, but can say, it would sure have been a lot closer than their actual fight 8 months and 15 pounds worth of pure hamburger later.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Would never have given Holy fits in Tokyo or anywhere else..Holy was too game..in my opinion

Pedantic was aimed at the guy who said Tyson was on the floor picking up his gumshield.............

No one's arguing how it finished.

Except he was on the floor scrambling for his gumshield, he has it half sticking out his mouth when he finally gets up and on the HBO Legendary Nights documentary it's part of his excuse (he says he didn't think they'd let him carry on without it therefore he was desperate to retrieve it - BS if you ask me but that's the excuse he gave). So I think the 'pedantic' comment is a little harsh.

Regarding the OP, I'm too late to the party to add anything fresh I simply agree wholeheartedly with Chris. This wasn't the 'usual' weak Buster but a determined individual hardened and galvanised by the recent tradgedies in his life. Yes the arena was like a morgue but Tyson came in out of shape and without even a full corner team (think he was missing a cut man - using a surgical glove filled with ice for example to stem bleeding/swelling!) showing a lack of preparation. Tyson minus fear-factor and minus preparation against the Buster of that fight loses regardless of venue.

Tyson just fought badly that night. He also did some weird Japanese prep before the fight like origami or something......it made him too relaxed. He was in the press conf all laughing and smiling before the fight. Not the usual nasty and aggressive Tyson, he was too relaxed so perhaps it would have been different in the USA.

Although it's probably that Tyson had an off night and Douglas fought the fight of his life is why it ended the way it did. No major fan of Tyson but I dispute people saying he was "found out" by Douglas. He just had a bad day at the office.

The pedantic comment was a hit back... to me referencing Buster struggling to get off the deck..

Milky good to hear from you but like I refer to at the start of the article....Home crowds raise the teams game...gets the adrenalin pumping more.....makes tjhe opposition feel they are entering a lair etc...

Buster probably wins but it adds a new dynamic..

to any sensible type it's pedantic so I can see why you didn't get it..

Would Hatton have beaten Mayweather and Pacquiao had the fights been at the MEN instead of the MGM?

Were Hatton and Mayweather evenly matched????

Were Tyson and Douglas evenly matched????

No tyson is a hall of famer in all but name as was/is Mayweather...Douglas win was a shock!!!!!!!!!!

Tyson is a hall of famer in name as well Truss, was inducted this year, first ballot no less.

Personally I think if Gary Lockett v Kelly Pavlik had been in Cwmbran Town Hall the fight would of turned out differently. Gary beats Pavlik by an 8th round KO (Kellys gets confused during the count while looking for his Ohio State football cap) everytime on the Trussman theory

Back to the article for a giant like Tyson to fight with the crowd behind him against a fragile ego in Buster.......It's fair to say the logistics would be different...

Fair enough to say Buster still wins he probably does....

The article is valid...........To mildly intelligent types and above anyway..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Back to the article for a giant like Tyson to fight with the crowd behind him against a fragile ego in Buster.......It's fair to say the logistics would be different...

Fair enough to say Buster still wins he probably does....

The article is valid...........To mildly intelligent types and above anyway..

The point a lot of posters have been trying to make is that in THIS fight Buster's ego (or mental state or whatever) wasn't fragile at all. I'm not sure why you feel the need to dismiss anyone's opinion that so clearly differs from your own without first at least having the decency to pay it due regard. There's a difference between a riposte and regurgitation.

How do you know how fragile Buster's ego was...........

Mate it's conjecture for anybody to know what Buster's state was.....Not black and white....

I allude back to the time I was tennis champ and thought I would lose the final and didn't......anybody can say I was 100% confident watching me.. and I could say afterwards i was 100%..

Doesn't change the fact Buster was a notorious quitter with confidence issues...

Maybe your right..maybe not....It's open to interpretation.

As always Truss excellent thought provoking article.

I think a guy of Tysons fragile mental state at times would have been a far tougher opponent than he was if he had a loud American crowd behind him like what he had become used to.

I also agree that it probably suited Douglas being outside the U.S because even if it was in his home state Tyson would probably still have had more support.

It's hard to say it would have affected the result but with 2 guys who mentally were a bit fragile at times it could have been a bigger issue than many realised at the time.

That's the issue Prettyboy..how much more buoyed would Tyson have been and how much would it have affected Buster..?

Never said... as it has been alluded to by others that Tyson wins....

Just said that the logistics would have been different..and maybe a more even fight would/could have resulted in a different atmosphere!!!

Truss if the fight had happened in the States I believe it would probably have been a different outcome.

Tyson would still have got stunned at some stage in his career but in the States imo it would have took a much better fighter than Douglas.

Home crowds play a major part in a lot of sports hence the reason why finals like the Champions league in football are in a neutral stadium. You may know better than me but do they not do the same with the Superbowl and Stanley cup?