Leinster V Dragons

First topic message reminder :

Right, the teams haven't been announced yet but we might as well get started.

So, how are the respective camps feeling about this? The eternal optimist in me can't see us being awful two games in a row (and I mean awful!) and with any luck some home truths have been said and, more importantly, taken on board by all and sundry.

As far as changes are concerned I'd like to see us stick with the same XV that started and let them work together. If you're going to drop anyone after last week you might as well drop them all.

Dragons were oh-so-close to a LBP in Cork, that's got to gnaw at them. They will feel that this is the perfect time to play us, especially after last week. Should they be confident or will they end up feeling the backlash?



Referee: Andy Macpherson (SRU, 37th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Michael Black, Richard Kerr (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Tom McCormack (IFRU)
TMO: Tony Redmond (IRFU)

Relieved after that, we really woke up in the second half. That was much needed after a chastening first week when I think there was a bit of cockiness going into the Ospreys game.

Backs did very well, Carr was the pick of the bunch, but again we've not had a dominant performance from the back row, which reallys needs to improve their workrate.

Dragons will be disappointed they didn't get an LBP, it was certainly on the cards after the first half.

Good to see some long range counter attacks resulting in tries. That's the Leinster way. The team is missing to many experienced players though. I'd say they'll wobble in the league until they come back. I'm happy with the few flashes of attacking brilliance for now though.

Two chances of LBP's blown there. More so last week, but this week we should've offered more.

I was quite impressed by Joe Bedford at 9 in pre-season, but now he looks ponderous at the back of the ruck and makes odd decisions. Absolute shambles. Only bright lights were Andrew Coombs really and maybe Pat Leach. Tom Riley needs dropping for Adam Hughes too.

I wouldn't be too hard on him Risca Rev, Strauss and Hagan were counter rucking hard and he had to deal with his own forwards being pushed back into him for a lot of the game. I'd be more annoyed with the big lumps.

greybeard wrote:I wouldn't be too hard on him Risca Rev, Strauss and Hagan were counter rucking hard and he had to deal with his own forwards being pushed back into him for a lot of the game. I'd be more annoyed with the big lumps.

Yeah our forwards are soft, but there were also times he was ponderous. You'd think any 9 who plays behind our pack would know that they don't have any time at the back of a ruck, but yet it never seems the case.

Anyway, I'd written off the three Irish away trips out of our four opening games and so nothing has changed. I'd just rather us have offered a little bit more in attack.

Risca:

I thought Bedford played well, he was quick to the breakdowns and got the ball away quickly, the only mistake was the tap penalty just before half time, eeasy 3 points. Tovey did not have one of his better games mainly his kicking, took the try well. I wish Tovey would run more he can look a class flyhalf but not tonight. S Jones coming on was a complete disaster the whole team lost shape. It could be a long season for the Dragons, it is a shame the two Scottish or Italian sides were not first up to get a good start to the season. Interesting to see how the boys go at home in the new look ground, should be good.

Bedford's delivery is good, but there were times (in my opinion) where he was doing a Mike Phillips and looking around before passing.

Tom Riley has to be dropped this week. Adam Hughes 13 and bring Jamie Smith onto the wing. He offered more when he was on. Tovey wasn't the best last night either Alan, I'll give you that.

Dragons have to get 5 points next week.

Standulstermen wrote:
Should add that the attendance figures were 14500 odd. That is brilliant

I was there. There was closer to half that.

Those figures were "Tickets sold" There are about 13200 season ticket holders, which means they sold 1300 tickets. I would say that about a third to a half of the season ticket holders did not show. Pretty poor really. They can't all be on holiday.

In fairness STHs outside Dublin can have trouble getting to a Friday game. So I am expecting a big improvement next Saturday v Glasgow.

Great individual tries from Macken, Carr and Madigan. Carr was the business. Isa was god as usual. But the pack was punching below their weight. Or less than the sum of their parts. Scrum was OK.

Poor old Matt Birquist though. Wincing just looking at this knee shot.
http://www.rugbypicture.co.uk/LeinstervDragonsSep11/content/_92K3213_large.html

Oh jeysus, it looked bad at the time but that's horrendous!

Carr did look exciting all night and Íosa is still the mutts nuts!!

Risca Rev wrote:Two chances of LBP's blown there. More so last week, but this week we should've offered more.

I was quite impressed by Joe Bedford at 9 in pre-season, but now he looks ponderous at the back of the ruck and makes odd decisions. Absolute shambles. Only bright lights were Andrew Coombs really and maybe Pat Leach. Tom Riley needs dropping for Adam Hughes too.

Rev,

Whats latest on Harries as I think Hughes is on wing at mo cos of his injury.

Harries will be back in December. So Hughes has to cover on the wing as Brew is away on Wales duty and Chavanga hasn't joined yet.

Good night in Dublin but a night to forget for the Dragons. Enjoyed the trip though, going to make it a regular thing. Met a couple of lovely home fans and had many pints of guiness bought for me but I have to say generally the reception was a little frosty!

Hey guys long time no speek !
I watched the game and altho at times we defended well some of our decision making was shocking. Bedford - once with the quick tap, another with a shocking kick over the top and and a few others were guilty to. In fairness he was given some poor ball. Its hard to have a go at the outside backs as they never really had a chance. (holly moses Carr was very impressive and made less errors than Nacewa)

Id be alot more confident of the 4 trys v Aroni if we had a backline of

9 Evans, 10 Tovey, 11 Poole, 12 Leach,13 Hughes, 14/15 Thomas/Jones/Smith.

Berquist out for 10/12 weeks is the news i'm hearing at the moment.

Madigan is looking at a lot of game time if that's the case. Will we be looking for a stop gap signing in the meantime or will be see Isa stepping into the 10 jersey?

It will surely be Isa I'd imagine. Who else is available at this short notice? Is Gavin Henson an option?

red_stag wrote:It will surely be Isa I'd imagine. Who else is available at this short notice? Is Gavin Henson an option?

Isa might not be a bad shout at 10. Schmidt was a coach at the Blues which featured Isa at 10 pretty frequently. He wasn’t effective there in the 09 team, but that was a side with Gaffney running the backs. Maybe he’d be a good fit there under Schmidt.

We’ve decent cover in the back 3 anyway. Kearney, Conway can cover fullback and Fitz should be available for the wing this week and Shaggy is due back at the end of the month. Carr is clearly the best player since Simon Keogh.

What's wrong with Madigan? He's looked very good in the 2 games this season. Far better than Berquist, I would be starting IM anyway regardless of injury. I thought it was a poor decision changing the half backs, we were on onto a BP up until then, the game just died after the change.

I did think it was funny that we replaced our FH with a prop.

I presume madigan will get a run and rightly so

berquist is our cover so we got really unlucky, madigan is starting to look confident and our backline in a few games could be really exciting.

There's nothing wrong with Madigan. But since last season he's gone from being 2nd/3rd choice out half to having to start the next 5 or 6 games with no backup. I'd be perfectly happy to have him start every game, but it's too risky to have no backup.

Mickado wrote:There's nothing wrong with Madigan. But since last season he's gone from being 2nd/3rd choice out half to having to start the next 5 or 6 games with no backup. I'd be perfectly happy to have him start every game, but it's too risky to have no backup.

You play 2 x outside backs at 22 & 23. eg. Hudson and ...... getting thin now, we need Shaggy Fitz and Conway back fast. Then if Madigan needs to come off, you move Isa to 10 and put someone else in at FB. eg. Conway, Kearney or even Fitz.

did anyone see it

it was rare never before seen moment in rugby history

but big toner broke the gainline he ran straight into a tackler and did not go backwards, it was amazing, need to see sykes in there soon though

D24tress wrote:did anyone see it

it was rare never before seen moment in rugby history

but big toner broke the gainline he ran straight into a tackler and did not go backwards, it was amazing, need to see sykes in there soon though

I did. That must be what it sounds like, when doves cry.

Jen, that’s a decent plan. But it does leave us a bit exposed. I know he already plays every game but what if (god forbid, touch wood and/or whatever other superstition you’re having) Íosa gets injured.

Did ye get your season ticket supporters pack? The scarf is nice this year and I’ll avail of the discounted Emerald Rugby subscription

oi oi oi calm down with that talk mick you cant mention the i word around
isa

my auld fella has mine is there any good dvds in it
i still watch the leinster toulouse dvd they gave two years ago

D24tress wrote:oi oi oi calm down with that talk mick you cant mention the i word around
isa

my auld fella has mine is there any good dvds in it
i still watch the leinster toulouse dvd they gave two years ago

There are no DVD’s I’m afraid. A scarf, a metal badge/pin, a poster, a car sticker and a few discount cards. Nothing hectic but it’s pretty good.
I got my first ST the year after the DVDs, so I’ve just got 3 different scarves…

Maybe I'm a crazy heretic, but with Berquist out how about instead of trying to buy someone in we use the structure of Irish rugby as it is and promote the best AIL out-half to our squad?

That would be good if it wasn't for a distinct lack of any players coming from the AIL into the Leinster squad. O'Brien, Shaggy and Shawe aside.

I can't help but feel that if there was someone in the AIL who was up to the standard of Leinster outhalf then they'd already be in he squad. Too pessimistic?

Not pessimistic, more or less realistic I'd say.

But I reckon we take it on the chin and try it out. Being on the lookout for someone to come in for a few weeks is unfair. It's unfair on the player who comes in and leaves just as they're settling, it's unfair on players under the whole Leinster umbrella in either the academies or the AIL who'd kill for a chance. (Yes, I know that's a contradiction!)

Speaking of releasing players just as they're settling in I see we have already released David Gannon, he was supposed to be here for the RWC but he was on the bench for Connacht at the weekend. No idea what happened there.

Maybe he's disappeared down the LockBlackHole? He can have a look for Ed O'Donaghue down there.

Mickado wrote:

D24tress wrote:oi oi oi calm down with that talk mick you cant mention the i word around
isa

my auld fella has mine is there any good dvds in it
i still watch the leinster toulouse dvd they gave two years ago

There are no DVD’s I’m afraid. A scarf, a metal badge/pin, a poster, a car sticker and a few discount cards. Nothing hectic but it’s pretty good.
I got my first ST the year after the DVDs, so I’ve just got 3 different scarves…

Yep that DVD was the 1st year permanently in the RDS. Mick is correct it was 4 years ago. You must be getting old D4.

Did not collect mine as I am diagonally opposite where they were getten gev out. Bit of a rush on a Friday. Plenty of time this week for scarf retrieval. Saw them around though. They are probably the best of the last few years.

D4 is right about Mentioning the I word on the curly headed one though. Don't even dream it.

Before the season I was hoping to see Madigan and McKinley fighting it out for the backup outhalf spot, so that when Berquist's 1 year contract was up, the winner would be the number 2 behind Jonno.

Now poor McKinley has retired, and Berquist will be lucky to get back for the last HC pool games in January.

Good news for Mads as it will give him a run of games at 10. Bad news for us as we are now paper thin and you are not allowed mention the i word about anyone capable of playing 10, 12 or 13.

As a sign of reverence to the great one I will only call him Íosa on here from now on. I encourage you to all do the same.

agreed mick íosa it is, whats everyones thoughts on the new guys
browne, hagan, leo(up from the ail so it is possible) and the speedster

Browne has been ok, he’s not afraid of a carry and he likes to hit a ruck. Seems to be solid in the lineout.
I’ve been impressed with Hagan, the scrum has been solid at worst and on top at times, he’s like a better carrying/worse scrummaging version of Ross, no harm there.
Leo is a bit of a beast, he made a great break for Carrs try and to be honest I didn’t think he’d be able for the physicality of the league, but he didn’t look out of place, I will reserve judgment though as he was only on the pitch for a short time.
Carr looks very exciting/excitable/excited whenever he gets his hands on the ball, himself and Íosa could be a lethal combo and with Shaggy in the back3 it would be a great balance. Honestly, I’d expect him to be rotated with Fitz for the season. He’s the best thing since Simon Keogh/Gary Browne, there I said it.

I’ve been pretty disappointed with Rhys Ruddock this year though, his performances aren’t up to what we’ve come to expect of him, but that could be down to the fact that he’s a better 6 and is playing alongside 2 other players who are also best suited to playing blindside.

Yeah the backrow have let me down big time

i thought they would step up, rudduck and ryan are young and i'm not sure mcloughlin is the leader type so maybe they are missing a bit of guidance

leo does not look like he lacks physicality and maybe thats what the backrow needs, hagan has future ireland tighthead written all over him and this is without greg feek aswell remember.

Fionn carr came back and signed a 1 year deal and he has backed himself to get more out of it and tbh it looks like the gamble is paying off for him, he plays the leinster way

Just thinking, when Shaggy and Conway are fit and available for selection (should be by the end of the month from what I’m reading) we could potentially put out these backlines:

15. Íosa
14. Horgan
13. Macken
12. O’Malley
11. Carr
10. Madigan
9. Willis

22. Kearney
23. Fitzgerald
______________________________________________

15. Conway
14. Kearney
13. Fitzgerald
12. O’Malley
11. Carr
10. Íosa
9. Willis

22. Madigan
23. Horgan
______________________________________________

15. Kearney
14. Horgan
13. Macken
12. Fitzgerald
11. Conway
10. Madigan
9. Willis

22. Íosa
23. Carr

That’s not a bad choice of rotation of players and positions. I wish Ireland would just win the world cup and let us get settled!

"the Leinster way" looks to be changing a bit. I wouldn't be surprised to see an Ireland team in the future made up almost exclusively with Leinster forwards and with only 1-2 in the backs.



Maybe:



09 Murray - Munster

10 Sexton - Leinster

11 Earls - Munster

12 McFadden - Leinster

13 Spence - Ulster

14 Bowe - Ospreys

15 Jones - Munster



I think the 2006 Semi Final summed up the Munster and Leinster ways in my head. Munster had almost an entire international 1-10 - Horan, Flannery, Hayes, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Leamy, Wallace, Foley, Stringer, O'Gara. Leinster had the 11-15: Hickie, Darcy, BOD, Horgan, Dempsey.



Now things are altering slightly and it looks like Leinster contributing most of forwards and less backs than before.

That may well be the case Stag, but it doesn’t mean that the way we (Leinster) play has changed. It just means the rest of the country is catching on that this is the way to do it.

Yes thats a possibility too but to me the way Leinster play has changed since 2009. That was a MASSIVE season for them and they haven't looked back. Leinster didn't play like that before.

red_stag wrote:Yes thats a possibility too but to me the way Leinster play has changed since 2009. That was a MASSIVE season for them and they haven't looked back. Leinster didn't play like that before.

Well 2009 was certainly the year we added a good pack to a good backline, but don’t forget we also hockied Wasps out of the RDS with 6 tries and scored 3 in the semi final. It wasn’t all about the forwards eeking out a victory like in the Stoop or Murrayfield, we could turn it on the flair when we needed.

I can’t see us contributing much more than half the pack over the next few years either, both props, probably 2 maybe 3 backrows. But Best and Flannery won’t be displaced for a few years yet and we just don’t have anyone to replace DOC and POC, Cullen is an able deputy now but there’s little or nothing coming through in the next generation.

well the leinster way is now total rugby, off loading and interplay between backs and forwards

i expect there to be a few leinster backs in the ireland team, the only reason the other provinces players are shining is cause they are getting more game time as the competition for places isnt there like in leinster.
spence is getting alot more opportunities then o'malley or even mcfadden.

The best thing that has happened has been the mixing of players into other provinces, prime examples being jones in munster and mike ross in leinster

I think Ulster are going to have at least 4 starters for Ireland in the next few years.It's great for depth in the team and hopefully Connacht will start to contribute more over time.

Yes D24 - Leinster play a great all round game now. Just making the point that it has evolved greatly over time. Agree about the mixing of players - however I hope it won't extinguish the loyal provincial spirit we know.

Agree with everything been said, it's amazing to see so much backline depth in Leinster again. Think Darcy is going to be in trouble tbh when he comes back.

Yeah can see Leinster props, (Strauss too maybe) and backrow beginning to dominate the Irish set up. Can see the Ulster centre partnership coming out on top though with Marshall and Spence although I think this will take 2 years or so.

I think it will be a while before Marshall gets anywhere like that. He faces tough opposition with Paddy Wallace and Nevin Spence and even Ian Whitten all playing at 12.

Strauss mightn't be as good in test rugby because of his size.

I can see Marshall and Spence being a huge force in Northern hemispherical* rugby.

*What a strange word, can't be right!