Should Lawes be cited for knee on Ledesma?

by brennomac Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Lot of discussion on Setanta - predictably not a mention on the rose-fixated ITV - on whether Lawes should (will) be cited for his "tackle" on Ledesma, Replays show pretty clearly that Lawes lead with his knee to Ledesma's head when Ledesma was on the ground and already out of play. There was no need to tackle Ledesma never m ind lead with the knee. Given how much the Argies love the English won't be surprised if he's cited. A

And please, my English friends, before you jump up in indignation go watch the playback.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:20 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes a Kiwi? Don't blame us for everything mate

Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.

Nice work, getting a dig in at both countries, I commend your economy of effort Smile

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:20 pm

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:20 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes a Kiwi? Don't blame us for everything mate

Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.

Are you going to explain "history of dirty play" or was that an assumption as well?

by englandglory4ever Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:27 pm

'Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.'

Don't be silly! Only half the players in all my county club sides are Kiwis. To say 'all' well that's really pushing it. Whistle

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:28 pm

Question,,, If he does get a three week ban could England send him home and replace him with another player.
Or does the ban mean that England will have one less player for the duration of the ban.

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:31 pm

Cymroglan wrote:Question,,, If he does get a three week ban could England send him home and replace him with another player.
Or does the ban mean that England will have one less player for the duration of the ban.

Sorry Cymroglan I don't think anyone knows. You could try looking on the IRB website to see if there are tournament regulations on replacing members of the team. If it says they can only swap out for injury then I guess the answer is they'll be down a player.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:32 pm

I thought it was one less player to choose from. That's part of the punishment, isn't it?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:33 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:'Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.'

Don't be silly! Only half the players in all my county club sides are Kiwis. To say 'all' well that's really pushing it.

Exactly, some of them are south african, samoan or chanel islanders

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:35 pm

Don't forgot the Tongans. There are few Fijians but not as many. We've even got a Moldovan at Sale now. Very cosmopolitan

by nathan Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes a Kiwi? Don't blame us for everything mate

Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.

Are you going to explain "history of dirty play" or was that an assumption as well?

considering his other posts i wouldnt hold your breath.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:36 pm

Chanel Islanders? Must play at no 5... Tumbleweed

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:42 pm

Cowshot wrote:Chanel Islanders? Must play at no 5...

My mistake, Chanel is French Erm

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:43 pm

Like Armitage, who lived there a couple of years as a teenager

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:46 pm

Good pointm,, he was bornm on a island too. Yes its him i meant Whistle

Lets not forget the Channel Islander Banahan too

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:49 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:Considering he is a kiwi he will probably claim it was an accident and get off without punishment. I suppose if Cooper can blatantly knee someone in the head and get away with it Lawes probably will too. It was dirty play though and deserving of a ban.

Lawes a Kiwi? Don't blame us for everything mate

Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.

Nice work, getting a dig in at both countries, I commend your economy of effort

Thanks for noticing.

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:51 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:'Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.'

Don't be silly! Only half the players in all my county club sides are Kiwis. To say 'all' well that's really pushing it.

Ok because he looks a decent player I assumed he was a kiwi.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:05 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:'Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.'

Don't be silly! Only half the players in all my county club sides are Kiwis. To say 'all' well that's really pushing it.

Ok because he looks a decent player I assumed he was a kiwi.

Are you saying that Flutey and Hape are decent players?

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:16 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
leinsterbaby wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:'Sorry just presumed they were all kiwis.'

Don't be silly! Only half the players in all my county club sides are Kiwis. To say 'all' well that's really pushing it.

Ok because he looks a decent player I assumed he was a kiwi.

Are you saying that Flutey and Hape are decent players?

Ok you win.

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:24 pm

A banned player were replaced in 1995, when Pieter Hendriks was banned after the game against Canada in the pool match, Chester Williams was called in.

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:35 pm

Interesting, I thought Chester Williams was in the team from the start.

by The Great Aukster Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:40 pm

Gibson - I too want to see the best players, but this oaf may have put paid to Contepomi's RWC with his accidental knee to his ribs, and Tiesi's RWC with his barge. Whether it's deliberate or not he seems prone to accidents that injure the opposition.

If he is banned, I see no reason why MJ shouldn't have the option to send him home and a replacement flown in. This is what would happen in any normal team follwing a ban and would also avoid complications around front row citings - if say two out of three hookers in a squad got banned!

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:44 pm

leinsterbaby wrote:Interesting, I thought Chester Williams was in the team from the start.

He was going to be originally, but then pulled a hamstring (sounds familiar doesn't it) just before the world cup, and got his shot against Samoa when he scored 4 tries in the test, a then record for tries in a test for a springbok. Yahoo

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:45 pm

So you can replace for a ban? I am surprised.

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:46 pm

don't know if you can nowadays, but you could then, the way i figure it is the ban is to penalise the player, not the team.

by RubyGuby Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:27 pm

If England had been playing New Zealand and Ledesma was Muliiana the headline would probably read:

"Should Lawes be Knighted for the knee on Muliiana" thumbsup

Funny old game and not for the feint hearted eh!

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:43 pm

the way i figure it is the ban is to penalise the player, not the team.

That's a reasonable position. I had assumed that any effects on the team /squad were part of the punishment...

by damage_13 Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:19 pm

Cowshot wrote:
the way i figure it is the ban is to penalise the player, not the team.

That's a reasonable position. I had assumed that any effects on the team /squad were part of the punishment...

this is why wendyball is fecked, no proper punishments that effect teh team while the game is in play, and retrospective punishments take ages and are meaningless.

Retrospective punishments should only effect the player, it will effect the team by proxy as if the player is any good then they will miss that experience/skill for the duration

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:30 pm

this is why wendyball is fecked, no proper punishments that effect teh team while the game is in play,

I'll take your word for it. I understand that they tried but abandoned the back 10 for dissent in footie. Do you know why it wasn't taken on?

by damage_13 Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:40 pm

cos its just another free kick and in a game where possession is easily turned over and you can pass forwards it didn't matter.

What they REALLY need is a sin bin (pink card) and the clock linked to refs watch. But thats another story.

I hope Lawes doesn't get suspended for the duration of the WC

by eirebilly Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:03 pm

I must admit that when i saw it first at normal speed it looked very bad. Having seen it later in slow motion it doesnt look much better but i do see that he is more trying to pull out of it than intenionally hurt.

It was a silly and clumsy attempt and he can be banned for it but i doubt he will as it honestly looked to me as if he was trying to avoid the contact.

by Boyne Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:14 pm

Looks as if he could miss the rest of the tourney.

100% spot on. Hes a thug. At it 3 or 4 times in the game.

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:57 pm

Boyne wrote:Looks as if he could miss the rest of the tourney.

100% spot on. Hes a thug. At it 3 or 4 times in the game.

Cor, he must getting cited all the time. How times has he been cited?

by Boyne Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:59 pm

Once for this but he decked Cian Healey in his last game before the WC, took out the Argie center with a late tackle and , the most cowardly of all, drops the knees on an old age pensioner.

Thug.

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:03 pm

Are you on about Tiesi? You think that's late? You do know that having it in slow motion messing with the time frame don't you?

by yappysnap Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:07 pm

Boyne wrote:Once for this but he decked Cian Healey in his last game before the WC, took out the Argie center with a late tackle and , the most cowardly of all, drops the knees on an old age pensioner.

Thug.

What did he do to Healey? And that tackle was legal. Powerful and in the end WC ending for Tiesi, but legal.

by Boyne Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:10 pm

Lads, it was late. If Johnny Wilkos got hit with one of those you'd be up in arms.

He hit Healy in the "friendly" in Dublin a few weeks back and Healys eye socked got damaged as a result.

Neither as bad as dropping his knees on a 40 year old who was in touch, on the ground and out of play.

by Gatts Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:10 pm

Tiesi tackle hard but he was committed, only late because T got ball away.

Ledesma...different story...lead with the knees, correctly cited and, in my view, will be sent home.

Quite a rep he is building, Jonners must be so proud

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:13 pm

Does anybody have a link

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:21 pm

Why wasn't he cited against Healy? I can't even remember it happening (I remember all the stuff with Croft and the claims he had gouged Healy to cause the damage).

Cymroglan, it'll be on ITV player around 38mins. Don't know of any direct link.

by eirebilly Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:32 pm

If Lawes was leading with his knee then he would have hit him with his knee. If you look closely, Lawes tries to pull out and catches him with his thigh, very close to his toilet parts.

by GunsGerms Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:37 pm

If he wanted to avoid him he could have. He will get off because cooper got off but i reckon a ban is appropriate as it probably should have been for cooper.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:38 pm

eirebilly wrote: Lawes tries to pull out and catches him with his thigh, very close to his toilet parts.

That sounds more like the Ojo spit roast incident from the last time they were in NZ

by eirebilly Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:47 pm

Sure we will all have our own views but i personally dont think that it was intentional. If he does get banned, he can have no complaints as it was very clumsy but i still doubt that it was intenional.

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:54 pm

He may not have intentionally wanted to hurt him but I wont buy the excuse that he tried to pull out of the tackle.

by Gibson Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:56 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Gibson - I too want to see the best players, but this oaf may have put paid to Contepomi's RWC with his accidental knee to his ribs, and Tiesi's RWC with his barge. Whether it's deliberate or not he seems prone to accidents that injure the opposition.

If he is banned, I see no reason why MJ shouldn't have the option to send him home and a replacement flown in. This is what would happen in any normal team follwing a ban and would also avoid complications around front row citings - if say two out of three hookers in a squad got banned!

He kneed my Felipe? Phhoke im, hang de basterd out to dry! zen

by eirebilly Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:58 pm

Its not an excuse Cymro, i honestly do think that he tried to change his position so as not to hurt the poor guy.

by Gatts Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:00 pm

Did he do felipe too?!!!

by rumpelstiltskindoh Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:05 pm

It looked to me as if he was doing his usual 'hard man' thing.

ie he is trying to hurt the man, but not illegally.

the trouble is that with this approach, the margin for error is small, and if you get it a bit wrong, you get cited.

The tackle on Tiesi was fine, that on Ledesma not so.

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:08 pm

He put in a crunching tackle on Felipe, but in fairness Felipe was already carrying a knock from earlier on in the game. Definitely the tackle that meant he had to come off, though there wasn't anything wrong with it at all.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:26 pm

He's an English player, and even more damning, you can associate him with Jonno. Clearly guilty of tackles, hitting props with his testicles, arson in a naval dockyard and walking on the cracks in the pavement while wearing a loud shirt in a built up area.

Burning's too good for him. Throw the dog out.

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