Courses that are just there.

Do you have any, presumably local, courses which you are aware of but haven't played because you know they're rubbish? I ask because I have at least one which I drive past fairly frequently and part of me always thinks 'I ought to play it just because it's there' but then I realise it would be a waste of 5 hours (it's a pay & play public track in a field).

Yep, quite a few in the Hants/Dorset region. Often new courses that 10 or 15 years ago were just farm field.

The sort of course that has a par of 72 and is 6500 yards long, which obviously then makes it a 'championship' course! Is Bodgit and Scarper Building Merchants golf day a 'championship' event??

SJ, what course are you referring to??

Humpyd wrote:SJ, what course are you referring to??

Hylands Park in Chelmsford. Driving range is ok, and Lee Porter, the club fitter, is based there but the course looks awful.

Not played it and looking at a recent review I don't think I will!!

Personally if I were parting with my own money I'd only play a course I didn't know unless I'd spoken to someone I trusted who'd played it in the previous few months.

DFS
The course you refer to I assume has 10 par 4's and 4 each Par 3's and 5's.

I remember the call going out about 15 years ago 'we need a hundred new courses within the next 5 - 10 years'. A lot of sh!te courses got built around that time by people who sold off fields to course designers with less imagination than an X-Factor finalist.

Noshanking
Tooo true.
Most of the courses that were built during Maggies false dawn went bankrupt within 2 years. Difficult to name a good one now.

Noshankingtonite wrote:I remember the call going out about 15 years ago 'we need a hundred new courses within the next 5 - 10 years'. A lot of sh!te courses got built around that time by people who sold off fields to course designers with less imagination than an X-Factor finalist.

Indeed, the R&A were behind it and I think it was 700 new courses, in the late 80s. Early 90s most of them got built, often as you say in farmers' fields and all too often, the topsoil got skimmed off in the process. Most are poor design, and as Doon says formulaic, but probably 1 in 4 are ok and still doing well, at least in my local area of Essex. Plenty have changed hands through bankruptcy etc, but some are still going under their original owners, my current club included. That is a very good example of what continued investment and development can achieve; when it first opened, they planted an awful lot of trees, and all were staked. A missed fairway therefore meant a free drop out of the staked tree area, and as a result the course didn't have the greatest reputation. However, nearly 20 years on the trees have grown and far from being non-existant as an obstruction, they're big enough to mean you're lucky to have a swing if you hit it in there but short enough to often make it difficult just to chip out. Add to that some great holes, good maintenance and recent addition of fairway irrigation and it's now a great test of golf. Traditional membership is full, and it's impossible to get a tee time at the weekend before 1pm.

[quote="SmithersJones"]

Noshankingtonite wrote:
Indeed, the R&A were behind it and I think it was 700 new courses, in the late 80s. Early 90s most of them got built, often as you say in farmers' fields and all too often, the topsoil got skimmed off in the process.

The R&A wasn't 'behind it'. The R&A may have pointed out there was a shortage of supply, but it was a series of get rich quick investors who tried to make money out of building golf courses. Sadly, making golf clubs pay is difficult because there's a very high upfront cost (with no return in the first three years), and then maybe 10 or 15 years before the course becomes good to play.

Also, where do you expect new golf courses to be built except on agricultural land? In city centres? Old factory sites?

Get real here. If those courses hadn't been built, people on here would be complaining that golf is too expensive and it's too elitist.

[quote="George1507"]

SmithersJones wrote:

Noshankingtonite wrote:
Indeed, the R&A were behind it and I think it was 700 new courses, in the late 80s. Early 90s most of them got built, often as you say in farmers' fields and all too often, the topsoil got skimmed off in the process.

The R&A wasn't 'behind it'. The R&A may have pointed out there was a shortage of supply, but it was a series of get rich quick investors who tried to make money out of building golf courses. Sadly, making golf clubs pay is difficult because there's a very high upfront cost (with no return in the first three years), and then maybe 10 or 15 years before the course becomes good to play.

Also, where do you expect new golf courses to be built except on agricultural land? In city centres? Old factory sites?

Get real here. If those courses hadn't been built, people on here would be complaining that golf is too expensive and it's too elitist.

The R&A produced the report calling for 700 courses to meet anticipated demand. That was all I meant, of course the developments were independent. And the reference to farmers fields was meant to convey the blandness of the layouts rather than any suggestion that the terrain might be unsuitable. If you can tell you're playing in an old field, someone hasn't done a very good job of designing or sculpting the course.

All correct guys 1978 was the report and the PGA through John Jacobs and incredibly Dennis Thatcher and one or two other 'celebs'held a series of promotional events mainly aimed at local authourities to sell the product.
What it did was allow the banks to be persuaded and also freed up the planning process.20 years on most courses survived and are now maturing albiet a pile of money has been lost along the way.there are some really poor examples of course but also some good stuff.Without it we would be moaning about waiting lists and joining fees.

My mistake 1988 was the report

Noshankingtonite wrote:I remember the call going out about 15 years ago 'we need a hundred new courses within the next 5 - 10 years'. A lot of sh!te courses got built around that time by people who sold off fields to course designers with less imagination than an X-Factor finalist.

Careful shanks, you'll incur diggers wrath, he loves the x factor and thinks it has unearthed some 'real' talent.

SJ~ Good post.

Dunbar Winterfield is my course that I should have played but probably never will.

castle heather [ / loch ness / fairways] golf club in inverness. spent nearly a year working in an office overlooking one of the fairways but never had the inclination to play it.

I know what you mean ban, it looks rubbish doesn't it. Ballumbie castle in dundee is another course I have no inclination to play.

ah ballumbie (bumble bee?) castle. ironically those two courses are owned by the same guy i believe. i've played bumble bee, mentioned it yesterday on another thread, nothing special - except the ridiculous number of dog-legged holes.

SmithersJones wrote:

Indeed, the R&A were behind it and I think it was 700 new courses, in the late 80s. Early 90s most of them got built, often as you say in farmers' fields and all too often, the topsoil got skimmed off in the process. Most are poor design, and as Doon says formulaic, but probably 1 in 4 are ok and still doing well, at least in my local area of Essex. Plenty have changed hands through bankruptcy etc, but some are still going under their original owners, my current club included. That is a very good example of what continued investment and development can achieve; when it first opened, they planted an awful lot of trees, and all were staked. A missed fairway therefore meant a free drop out of the staked tree area, and as a result the course didn't have the greatest reputation. However, nearly 20 years on the trees have grown and far from being non-existant as an obstruction, they're big enough to mean you're lucky to have a swing if you hit it in there but short enough to often make it difficult just to chip out. Add to that some great holes, good maintenance and recent addition of fairway irrigation and it's now a great test of golf. Traditional membership is full, and it's impossible to get a tee time at the weekend before 1pm.

SJ...are you talking about Crondon Park?

BlueCoverman wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

Indeed, the R&A were behind it and I think it was 700 new courses, in the late 80s. Early 90s most of them got built, often as you say in farmers' fields and all too often, the topsoil got skimmed off in the process. Most are poor design, and as Doon says formulaic, but probably 1 in 4 are ok and still doing well, at least in my local area of Essex. Plenty have changed hands through bankruptcy etc, but some are still going under their original owners, my current club included. That is a very good example of what continued investment and development can achieve; when it first opened, they planted an awful lot of trees, and all were staked. A missed fairway therefore meant a free drop out of the staked tree area, and as a result the course didn't have the greatest reputation. However, nearly 20 years on the trees have grown and far from being non-existant as an obstruction, they're big enough to mean you're lucky to have a swing if you hit it in there but short enough to often make it difficult just to chip out. Add to that some great holes, good maintenance and recent addition of fairway irrigation and it's now a great test of golf. Traditional membership is full, and it's impossible to get a tee time at the weekend before 1pm.

SJ...are you talking about Crondon Park?

I am, glad it rang a bell - or was that just the free drop out of the trees?

Several courses in Kent meet that criteria, too. And because they are "close to London" think it's OK to charge a fortune for the priviledge.

SJ...I have played there a few times and agree with you that it is now a great test of golf.

Must admit I wasn't a big fan in the free drop out of the trees days. I played in a Daily Mail match for my club at Crondon a few years ago and remember playing a safe iron into the middle of the fairway whilst my opponent then hit his Driver way past my ball but into the trees. That's this hole won I'm thinking until he takes his free drop and informs me that he doesn't even have to find the ball!

Playing just up the road at StockBrook Manor on Monday in a Martin Peters Charity golf day. Looking forward to that and meeting some of the former footballers.

super_realist wrote:

Noshankingtonite wrote:I remember the call going out about 15 years ago 'we need a hundred new courses within the next 5 - 10 years'. A lot of sh!te courses got built around that time by people who sold off fields to course designers with less imagination than an X-Factor finalist.

Careful shanks, you'll incur diggers wrath, he loves the x factor and thinks it has unearthed some 'real' talent.

Sorry got to be either tone-deaf or a complete dullard to watch that diatribe. I'd rather spend the night in shaving me b0ll0xs with a blunt cut-throat!

Coming back to the sh!te course scenario, I was a member of one (better remain nameless, but let's just say it was near FoD). Converted from a 9-hole to an 18 hole back in the 90s. Got me into the game from a handicap perspective. Poor design (up and down and duck for cover as some frickin camel carves one across 2 fairways without a shout). Also sh!te drainage and poor soil. Built a lovely clubhouse though, horrid bowl shape greens which held about as much as Katie Price's brain. Would be far better off selling off as a scrambling track or somewhere for people to walk lame donkeys imho

Noshankin
Was an artificial ski slope nearby?

Can anyone think of a course that was built in the last 30 years that isn't a golf course any more? I don't know any. There's a place called Beadlow Manor in Bedfordshire that came really about 25 years ago. It wasn't mowed for about a fortnight, house builders were waiting outside with a pile of money for someone before it was saved.

There was a course in Oxhey, Herts that didn't reopen after WWII and became a housing estate. The streets are named Muirfield Drive, Lytham rd etc. It was a good course apparently, so probably quite a few disappointed golfers had to move elsewhere. A sad tale.

BlueCoverman wrote:SJ...I have played there a few times and agree with you that it is now a great test of golf.

Must admit I wasn't a big fan in the free drop out of the trees days. I played in a Daily Mail match for my club at Crondon a few years ago and remember playing a safe iron into the middle of the fairway whilst my opponent then hit his Driver way past my ball but into the trees. That's this hole won I'm thinking until he takes his free drop and informs me that he doesn't even have to find the ball!

Playing just up the road at StockBrook Manor on Monday in a Martin Peters Charity golf day. Looking forward to that and meeting some of the former footballers.

Cheers BCM. I've only been a member there for 3 or 4 years, but I did play there once when the free drop was still in force, and it was a bit of a joke. Enjoy Stock Brook, I'm never quite sure about the place but it's not a bad course and is usually in pretty good nick.

LadyPutt wrote:Several courses in Kent meet that criteria, too. And because they are "close to London" think it's OK to charge a fortune for the priviledge.

How true that is LadyPutt.

Several courses I often drive past but have never had the inclination to play becuase of what they charge compared to what they are offering.

Couple that Spring to mind,
Sidcup, in the middle of Hurstmere school grounds yet expect a tidy sum for the priledge of playing there.
Tudor Park - Marriot course by pure fact it shares grounds with the Marriot Tudor Park hotel therefore think they can charge fortunes for a dsitintcly average course
Southern Valley - Sprung up out of some wasteland in gravesend, gets a ridiculous amount of people playing it daily when Rochester & Cobham is only a 5 minute drive away and is simply one of the best courses you will find in the south east
Wrotham Heath - Beautifull little course, refuse to play it after caddying there one year for BigBro Mav in a county event years ago, members were so stuffy and uptight they felt the need to inform me to cover up a tattoo I have on my upper left arm which you could barely see the tip of below my shirt sleeves.

Maverick wrote:
Wrotham Heath - Beautifull little course, refuse to play it after caddying there one year for BigBro Mav in a county event years ago, members were so stuffy and uptight they felt the need to inform me to cover up a tattoo I have on my upper left arm which you could barely see the tip of below my shirt sleeves.

That's the same for so many other courses in the area as well. LordPutt and I went to play in a society at West Kent one summer and he'd only just set foot on the patio outside the clubhouse when the pro pounced on him for having no socks! He wasn't even wearing his golf shoes at the time - never wears socks with casual shoes when he's wearing shorts. He then put his golf shoes on and was castigated for having a "Wilson" logo showing. The pro said they sell plain socks in the shop (for about 20 quid I seem to recall). LordPutt turned his socks inside out and we've never been back.

Ladyputt We had one near Mkt Harborough that has gone.Langton hall.Was real nice 9 holer set in the grounds of Langton Hall.The developer tried to sell memberships for £10k ish(didnt work) and then went back to normal members club but ceased trading and is now grazing.

Just checked and they closed in 1996 probably opened ab.out 93.Langton Hall was the home of a top amatuer donkeys years ago by the name of Everard.
Thinking about this a few days ago and of the 5 courses in the county that were built in the so called boom 4 have survived and matured really well.
This one was just a few miles from 2 other really good established courses and did not have the population to stand a chance.Possibly the best course and layout though.

LadyPutt wrote:

Maverick wrote:
Wrotham Heath - Beautifull little course, refuse to play it after caddying there one year for BigBro Mav in a county event years ago, members were so stuffy and uptight they felt the need to inform me to cover up a tattoo I have on my upper left arm which you could barely see the tip of below my shirt sleeves.

That's the same for so many other courses in the area as well. LordPutt and I went to play in a society at West Kent one summer and he'd only just set foot on the patio outside the clubhouse when the pro pounced on him for having no socks! He wasn't even wearing his golf shoes at the time - never wears socks with casual shoes when he's wearing shorts. He then put his golf shoes on and was castigated for having a "Wilson" logo showing. The pro said they sell plain socks in the shop (for about 20 quid I seem to recall). LordPutt turned his socks inside out and we've never been back.

Ahhh West Kent.. Yes have played there and felt there wrath also. Played it twice in fact, first time was in a Junior county league game, I'd just passed my driving test so was a fresh faced 17year old just climbing out of my little red Metro, taking my clubs out of the boot and placed my shoes down on the floor next to the car whilst trying to remove my 3 wood that i'd wedged into the tiny car boot when some old goat pounced on me and at full volume decided to inform me i was not allowed to put my golf shoes on in the car park, promptly informed him of what I was doing and that I could not fathom why he though my shoes that were a good 8 feet away from me were in anyway being put on my feet. Turns out the old goat was the club captain.

2nd time I played there even worse, played in an open 36 hole comp the following year to the previous incident turned up at the club and upon arrival was told by the pro, I couldn't use the area of practice ground I was occupying as they reserved it for members only, even though there was only 3 members there of which I played with 1 their club champ that day and meant over 100 entrants had to utilise a space for 10 people.

Sigining in for the day was near on impossible due to the person doing sign on's imspecting every handicap certificate with a fine tooth comb which iwould have had no issue with except for the fact he didn't have a clue how Congu worked.

First tee the starter inspecting my soft spikes stating they were not good for the greens despite the entrant sheet demanding all players having to wear soft spikes...

Midway through the 2nd round whilst going along nicely the old goat from previous year walking across the fairway with his beagle castigating me for the confrontation the year before in the junior match which put off my partners. Then again on the final green when putting out could hear the same old goat bellowing to his crones about how he'd put me in my place about a non incident over golf shoes...

Long and short of it was I won the sractch medal there that year with a total -6gross and even at presentation the pro and captain couldn't help dig that i'd been lucky to win as i'd flounted the rules on practice area and with my spikes when in truth i'd followed there instructions to the book, simple fact as I walked back to my chair and sat with my playing partners was the club champ from there who I'd beat by 5 shots to lowest gross said "don't worry young fella, they are a weird bunch only like there own winning"

Never been back since despite several invites

Mav, having read that story about West Kent and the one from LadyPutt, i have to say i'm glad things like 606v2 exist so the people who get treated that way can come on here and tell the golfing community (or a small part of it) about what a horrible little place it appears to be.
I hope someone from there reads this site and knows that now no-one will want to play there

George1507 wrote:Can anyone think of a course that was built in the last 30 years that isn't a golf course any more? I don't know any. There's a place called Beadlow Manor in Bedfordshire that came really about 25 years ago. It wasn't mowed for about a fortnight, house builders were waiting outside with a pile of money for someone before it was saved.

There was a course in Oxhey, Herts that didn't reopen after WWII and became a housing estate. The streets are named Muirfield Drive, Lytham rd etc. It was a good course apparently, so probably quite a few disappointed golfers had to move elsewhere. A sad tale.

I grew up on a housing estate built on a golf course. Think it was reduced to 9 holes and then these were abandoned in WW2. My primary school was the old clubhouse. Only remaining sign of the course are two Colt style mounds in the local park which clearly used to be bunkers. There's a clue in the road names... The Fairway, The Drive, etc.

Smithersjones - is the 7 day membership at Crondon really full?

I play at Channels which will soon be turned into a housing development, me & a few mates were considering joining Crondon when the bulldozers move in. Might have to have a re-think if it's full.

Also do you have to book tee-times at the weekends?

Isn't golf funny.

I played West Kent in 1969 as a members guest. I was made to feel very welcome.
It was a fantastic still late Autumn evening. We had a close game, both playing well, on an empty course. Obviously a good lasting memory.

Perhaps the members were gentlemen in those days as they sound like a bunch of jumped up wannabees now.

Doon the Water wrote:Isn't golf funny.

I played West Kent in 1969 as a members guest. I was made to feel very welcome.
It was a fantastic still late Autumn evening. We had a close game, both playing well, on an empty course. Obviously a good lasting memory.

Perhaps the members were gentlemen in those days as they sound like a bunch of jumped up wannabees now.

I think the problem is Doon over the years the people at west kent have evolved into elitist morons. Lovely little course they would like to play again but I will not go back after the treatment I got there in consecutive years. I'm glad someone has a good memory of the place though.

George
They started building a course near Bembridge IOW about 20 years ago and gave up half way through the build.
Yet another poorly planned operation. They had planning permission for the course but not a clubhouse. I think they assumed that once the course was built the cooncil would grant them permission for a clubhouse on the land, they didn't.

[quote="jockneyboy"]

I play at Channels which will soon be turned into a housing development, me & a few mates were considering joining Crondon when the bulldozers move in. Might have to have a re-think if it's full.

jockneyboy...how much of the course at Channels is going to be lost to the housing development?

Pretty much all of it, 650 houses is the plan. The owners say they'll retain 18 of the 27 holes initially, then build a completely new course on the fields to the north of the current site. It'll take years to bed in though.

Doon the Water wrote:Noshankin
Was an artificial ski slope nearby?

No - more towards F o D - but I know the course you are referring to and have had the misfortune to play that cabbage-patch of a course which is probably just about good enough for growing tatties on

Gloustershire seems to have more than it's fair share of duff golf courses.

jockneyboy wrote:Smithersjones - is the 7 day membership at Crondon really full?

I play at Channels which will soon be turned into a housing development, me & a few mates were considering joining Crondon when the bulldozers move in. Might have to have a re-think if it's full.

Also do you have to book tee-times at the weekends?

Crondon is pretty strange. I'm certain 7 day was closed earlier this year, but wouldn't swear it's still the case if my life depended on it. Certainly when the county champs were held there in July they were actively trying to recruit some of the younger players, so it may depend on your age and handicap.

Tee times at the weekend are tough, unless you want to join a swindle. In the summer you can get on in the afternoon, but in winter it's pretty much a closed shop. I play in a regular swindle late on a Saturday, and in the depths of winter we sometimes have to make do with 15 holes because the light runs out. There must be 5 or so different swindles each Saturday and Sunday, and as far as I can tell all are pretty welcoming to new members, and so if you can join you should be able to get a regular weekend game.

I played Channels this past Sunday, and the members I played with said it's by no means a done deal, and that the new course, should it happen, looks even better than the current layout. They said there's a planning meeting in December but even if the plans are approved it'll take a couple of years before any of the current holes are affected.

I used to be a member at Crondon some time ago. I seem to remember skipping the ball on the 5th more times than making the carry in a conventional fashion. Never parred the first or last although did birdie 18 the last time I played as a member there.

Moved to 3 Rivers for a few years and did half a season at Burnham once it became too difficult to get onto 3 Rivers. Got me name on the board at 3 Rivers for the Choppers Championship.... ah, happy days.

Doon the Water wrote:SJ~ Good post.

Dunbar Winterfield is my course that I should have played but probably never will.

Doon - Winterfield isnt a bad track to be honest. there are several nice holes at the bottom right on the beach, although the pro has to be one of the most miserable blokes ive ever had the misfortune to meet. felt like slapping him around the head and neck area and telling him to cheer up and be nicer to guests that had just travelled an hour to play the course!