Scotland's captain issues

Scotland have a clear problem with scrum halves; it would seem their best players over the last few years have been in the position, with Blair in '08, Lawson in the last twelve months or so, and Cusiter consistently quality, when fit. And so, it seems, these three players are going to take the captaincy of the team, even though all three could feasibly start the game (and one of the three, a player deemed to be captain material, doesn't even make the 22).

They seem to really be lacking in leadership, and someone to just take the bull by the horns; this often happens when backs are captains, and even with someone like BOD, Ireland have a POC to take almost dual leadership duties.

So, should Scotland ditch this really rather counter productive attitude to captaincy, and give the leadership to someone like Kelly Brown or Vernon? Does the captain really matter, and should leaders naturally step up, regardless of their official role or not?

Al Kellock is a great captain for Scotland and has never had a bad game for Scotland. However Rory Lawson is a very capable deputy and I think Scotland needed the abrasive combination of Hamilton and Hines against Georgia.

I would not look too deeply into the fact he "doesn't make the 22".

Scotland have a lot of international test Experience and leaders all over the park : Ford, Brown, Murray, Patterson, Morrison, Lamont to name a few.

Fair enough. Agree that Kellock is a great captain, and a great player. But, in his absence, I felt there was a distinct lack of leadership and a single player, or group of players in the forwards, who decided to make the decisions and take the pressure on themselves in trying to go and take the game to Georgia and win the game.

miaow wrote:Scotland have a clear problem with scrum halves; it would seem their best players over the last few years have been in the position, with Blair in '08, Lawson in the last twelve months or so, and Cusiter consistently quality, when fit. And so, it seems, these three players are going to take the captaincy of the team, even though all three could feasibly start the game (and one of the three, a player deemed to be captain material, doesn't even make the 22).

They seem to really be lacking in leadership, and someone to just take the bull by the horns; this often happens when backs are captains, and even with someone like BOD, Ireland have a POC to take almost dual leadership duties.

So, should Scotland ditch this really rather counter productive attitude to captaincy, and give the leadership to someone like Kelly Brown or Vernon? Does the captain really matter, and should leaders naturally step up, regardless of their official role or not?

Vernon? Are you serious? Scotland actually have a pretty good leadership group - Ford, Kellock, Hines, Brown, Barclay, all 3 scrummies, Paterson, S Lamont.

Paterson???????

Oh dear god. The man should be nowhere near the WC.


Was impressed with Kellock's captaincy in the 6N. Thought he led well, and with Richie Gray taking plaudits, he could quietly get on with leading the troops.

bathmad wrote:Paterson???????
Oh dear god. The man should be nowhere near the WC.

Care to explain why?

I have never really liked having a scrum half as a captain. I think you need someone who can impose himself. I do sort of see the logic behind it as you have someone who should be able to read how all aspects of the game are going but it doesn't seem to work for Scotland. Agree it should be Kellock

Just shows you what miaow knows - Vernon is never a captain and is indeed very lucky to be in NZ - i.e. what you might have given for a fit Johnny Beattie today ?

I have to say I'm not one to place huge significance on the captain. Sure, there have been some great captains through the ages like Johnson, Smit and Eales, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

What is the rule is that all great sides have a core of leaders within that side, and I don't think the current Scotland group is deficient in that regard.

Kellock is the notional leader, but for me he struggles to make the 1st XV. Not a problem today really with Murray, Ford and Hines (all touring Lions with a bunch of caps) and Kelly Brown in the pack, and Lawson, Morrison and Sean Lamont in the backs.

The issues today were not about leadership. There were some forced an unneccesary passes/offloads, Parks not having his best day with the boot and the conditions lending themselves to exactly the sort of game that Georgia wanted to play.

As an aside, I agree that Vernon was lucky to make it to the WC, but having done so he really came good in the Romania game. Not perhaps an allround display, but he was full of running in the last 10 minutes and played a big role in the telling scores. I think his selection has been a feather in the cap for Andy Robinson, and I'd start him against England.

The issue with kellock, is that he is arguably our 4th choice lock, which is just not acceptable for being a captain. the scrum showed a markable improvement without him, and Gray is more than capable of leading the lineout now that hes a bit more experienced.

When he was just interim captain last year, he justified his place, but in both the six nations and now wc, im not seeing the leadership from him. He was invisible against romania, and it took the introduction of rennie to sort the pack out, almost too late. He's also known as a bit of a ruck inspector, and can leave players isolated because he doesnt graft.

Finally, his decision making seems erratic at best. see the romania game for his orders on penalties, he didnt look like he knew what he was doing.

For me, the captain should be Brown. Hes our most consistent performer, and seems to have the respect of his teammates. With Barclay showing that he is in fact human, Brown is the only player other than shlong who is untouchable, and could be captain material.

I can't see how Kellock gets back into the Strarting XV, would be very harsh on Hamilton and Hines.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:I can't see how Kellock gets back into the Strarting XV, would be very harsh on Hamilton and Hines.

Can you drop your captain though? its a bit of a PR nightmare tbh.

I agree that if you're looking to players whose positions are secure, then you really have to pick from the following:

Ford, Jacobsen, Brown and S Lamont.

Can't think of anyone else whose position isn't under threat.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:I can't see how Kellock gets back into the Strarting XV, would be very harsh on Hamilton and Hines.

Agreed. He was already dropped for this game. Don't think it would be a PR issue at all. Blair should start and has plenty captaincy experience, and Brown can lead the forwards.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:I can't see how Kellock gets back into the Strarting XV, would be very harsh on Hamilton and Hines.

Agreed. He was already dropped for this game. Don't think it would be a PR issue at all. Blair should start and has plenty captaincy experience, and Brown can lead the forwards.

I think a lot of people are bing really Harsh on Kellock here. He has never let anyone down when playing for Scotland. I'll admit, he is not as powerful as Hamilton, not as Aggressive as Hines and probably not as athletic as Gray. However Al Kellock has a nack for disrupting the opposition lineout.

Kellock for me has not done anything either to be dropped.

I think it's a close call, so no disrespect to Kellock intended. He's our best line out forward in my view. However, I think our best two players at lock are Hines and Gray, and have thought so for some time. I'd have no issue using those two for the Argentina game and Hamilton/Kellock for England.

We have 4 very good options at lock.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

bathmad wrote:Paterson???????
Oh dear god. The man should be nowhere near the WC.

Care to explain why?

Sure, he's an embarassment to international rugby. Slow, powder puff, about as much talent as my mum. But, he can bang goals over from 40m which is what Scotland have needed over the last few years.

Assuming your Mum's English she should give Martin Johnson a ring.

England could use a world class (or even a competent) kicker like Paterson.

Oh, and he does have 22 tries as well.

To be fair, my mum is a lot scarier than most of the England backs.

As has been pointed out Paterson has scored 22 tries for his country and has long been Scotlands only glimmer of real talent in a side that was highly questionable at best.

All weak areas of his game he has been improving, for example his tackling. He is not a big man but he is a masterful tackler when making sweeping tackles. As the younger Ben Foden discovered when Paterson made one of the best tackles in the 6N at twickers this year.

I respect your opinion. It's wrong but I respect it none the less.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:As has been pointed out Paterson has scored 22 tries for his country and has long been Scotlands only glimmer of real talent in a side that was highly questionable at best.

All weak areas of his game he has been improving, for example his tackling. He is not a big man but he is a masterful tackler when making sweeping tackles. As the younger Ben Foden discovered when Paterson made one of the best tackles in the 6N at twickers this year.

I respect your opinion. It's wrong but I respect it none the less.

Yer getting soft in your old age, G!!!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Yer getting soft in your old age, G!!!

Aye that must be it

I have given up on trying to convince people who don't rate Paterson that he is one of the best players Scotland has had for years. His versitility has worked against him and IMO if he had been left to mature as a 10 we would not be in the position we are in now. I fear Hook for Wales and Haskell for England will go the same way.

Imagine a backline of Cusiter, Paterson, S. Lamont, Morrison, Ansbro, Evans and R. Lamont with Paterson having gained his 50 of his 100+ caps playing at 10 instead of being passed around the back line like a dirty magazine.

We would have had a seasoned consistant pro at 10 mentoring young Jackson and Weir at international level in much the same way Wilko/Flood and RoG/Sexton are doing at Ireland and England respectively. Instead we have desperate Dan who is either sublime or gash.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Instead we have desperate Dan who is either sublime or gash.

That should read sublime and/or gash. Today was a perfect example. Some great kicks to the corner, a couple of sweetly struck penalties and a tactically useful drop goal. Also some horribly skewed (almost Wilkinson-esque) goal kicking attempts, a dreadful kick right at the end of the first half and a couple of aimless punts (one in the first half where we had numbers to his left).

I'd go with Jackson against Argentina though. We outmuscled Georgia today and beat them at their own game. We won't do the same against Argentain. Different game plan needed.

Am surprised no one has mentioned Ritchie Grey, I think the guy is an awesome talent and along with Kellock probably one of the first names on the team sheet .

Gatland has put faith in Warburton and for me I think he should keep it even when Rees is fit, should Robinson do the same with Grey?

The problem there is that Gray combined with Kellock is a little underpowered in the tight against the other sides in our group, and Hines and Hamilton are the two grunt merchants.

Personally I'd pair Hines and Gray against Argentina, and Hamilton and Kellock against England. I'm not usually a fan of rotation, but there's so little to choose between these guys and Hamilton behind Murray, as we saw today, would be a formidable challenge for Stevens or Corbisiero.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Am surprised no one has mentioned Ritchie Grey, I think the guy is an awesome talent and along with Kellock probably one of the first names on the team sheet .

Gatland has put faith in Warburton and for me I think he should keep it even when Rees is fit, should Robinson do the same with Grey?

Gray is possibly the reason our Scrum struggles when he plays. Normaly the Scrum is an area of strength for us however I have heard it mentioned many times that perhaps Gray's technique when packing down needs to be refined, it's a skill that can be worked on. Warburton and Gray along with O'Brian are no doubt the "wonderkids" of celtic rugby, however captaining Wales is a lot differant in terms of captaining Scotland.

Wales are a better team and will win games and that will help Warburton's stock. Scotland on the other hand are not always winning and I reckon it will damage Gray's confidence to be on the receiving end of harsh criticism from Journalists and Fans alike if results don't go our way. Case and point Mike Blair in 2008/09 was arguably the best Scrum Half in the world, he lost that form possibly due to shouldering the burdern of the Scottish Captaincy and he is only now starting to recover the fragments of the player he once was. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Gray.

Kelly Brown would probably be my pick as captian.

Agreed - I'd far rather Gray just focused on becoming the best player he possibly can be.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Am surprised no one has mentioned Ritchie Grey, I think the guy is an awesome talent and along with Kellock probably one of the first names on the team sheet .

Gatland has put faith in Warburton and for me I think he should keep it even when Rees is fit, should Robinson do the same with Grey?

Gray is possibly the reason our Scrum struggles when he plays. Normaly the Scrum is an area of strength for us however I have heard it mentioned many times that perhaps Gray's technique when packing down needs to be refined, it's a skill that can be worked on. Warburton and Gray along with O'Brian are no doubt the "wonderkids" of celtic rugby, however captaining Wales is a lot differant in terms of captaining Scotland.

Wales are a better team and will win games and that will help Warburton's stock. Scotland on the other hand are not always winning and I reckon it will damage Gray's confidence to be on the receiving end of harsh criticism from Journalists and Fans alike if results don't go our way. Case and point Mike Blair in 2008/09 was arguably the best Scrum Half in the world, he lost that form possibly due to shouldering the burdern of the Scottish Captaincy and he is only now starting to recover the fragments of the player he once was. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Gray.

Kelly Brown would probably be my pick as captian.

+1

Fair one guys he just seems top notch to me.

As for us winning games would much rather be in Scotlands shoes at the mo with two wins on the board.

Well it's the next one that matters. Beat Argentina and we're through.

England play twice before we face Argentina so it's pretty likely you'll be topping the group comfortably by that stage.

funny,

If we are topping our group at any stage now I will be in dream land