Aaron Pryor Vs Sugar Ray Leonard-Who Wins,and Why..

Evening all,
Watching the wonderful series "Legendary Nights" (always thought that a better title was "Legendary Fights", but there you go) some years ago,I was amazed to discover Aaron Pryor. Having been a product of 80s boxing, I had never come across him, although I was aware of Leonard and Hearns' first fight.
Pryor was not a particularly likeable man and it did seem that he had something of an anti-image. The real fans knew about him ,but he was bitter-in my view, understandably- that he did not join the elite of the Big Four, or earn anything like the money they did.
However, as a fighter he was as tenacious and hungry as any other who laced gloves.He was not the favourite to beat Arguello at light welteweight,but he did, albeit in controversial circumstances(which need not be gone into here, except to say that I for one think he was innocent of any dodgy goings on,and won the rematch convincingly).His reputation as one of the greatest ever in his weight class is beyond despute.

The Sugar Man however was getting bigger in size as well as in stature, and the briefly mooted fight between them never ,of course, happened.It does seem odd to me though that say Duran fought all-comers at Middle, at a meagre five foot seven inches, Hearns was six foot one inch yet traversed the weight divisions, and yet Leonard, whose natural weight was surely Welter and not any of the higher weights,could not drop down a weight to take on a live threat,who unfortunately was not a marquee name.I do think it is a black mark against Leonard that he did not prove himself against Pryor, and on close scrutiny of his methods, it becomes clear that although he was one of the best fighters ever in many respects, he was awfully choosy about WHEN he fought the best,eg., Hagler as soon as he was on the slide,LaLonde who was never that good, rematched Duran when he knew the other guy had not a cat's chance in hell,etc.. I think that Ray just never fancied the risk against a smaller named opponent who would do him no favours at all.

Whilst Pryor did not have the silky skills of Leonard-who did-his workrate and chin would have stood him in good stead to do what Hearns did to him for eight rounds or so,except over fifteen.It's one genuine mouth-watering match-up ,in my book, and can't help returning to Pryor when the push comes to shove, to edge it.

Thoughts?

Pryor gave Hearns a lesson in the amateurs, beating him in the 1976 Golden Gloves Nationals, which led to him being considered too dangerous and therefore he was avoided by the 'big four'.

Not sure if this is an article about a fight between the two or Leonard bashing. Leonard chose to fight Hagler when he was too old? I am sure the best preparetion for fighting an all time great at a higher weight is one fight in 5 years!!

Only rematched Duran when he had no chance? did he not beat Duran 5 months after their first fight? Also as for the poor 3rd fight between the two the public were not interest in the fight until Duran had another significant win (after losing to Hagler and steam rolled by Hearns after he had lost to Leonard).

As for losing weight to fight Pryor, in those days of weighing in of the day of the fight, to lose half a stone of your best fighting weight with very little body fat could put your health at risk especially going aginst one of the best fighters out there.

Moving weight class aside and Pryor's swarming attack would have been a problem for Leonard, similar to his first fight with Duran. However; his handspeed and boxing ability for me will evetually allow him win a close UD.

On a final note there has been elements of hand picking opponents but you can't say he did not test himself against the best when he had 3 fights with Duran, 2 with Hearns and of cours the Hagler fights.

If you take Arguello off Pryor's CV, what great fighters did he beat in a pro ring?

"and yet Leonard, whose natural weight was surely Welter and not any of the higher weights,could not drop down a weight to take on a live threat,who unfortunately was not a marquee name."

That's often an argument we see when people are putting forward the theory that Leonard ducked Pryor but I think it should be flipped on its head. It's rather unusual for a fighter to step down a weight category to take on someone and we normally expect the smaller man to step up. Why should Leonard kill himself to make light welterweight to take on Pryor? Surely Pryor should be stepping up to welterweight.

To my mind, Pryor was happy to mouth off about Leonard but he didn't exactly put himself in a posiiton where Leonard couldn't resist a fight against him. If Pryor had stepped up and won a couple of fights at welterweight then the fight might have materialised.

I'd take Leonard and Hearns to both beat him at welterweight. No fighters woudl ever find it easy against Pryor but both have too much for him at that weight. Pryor is unproven at welterweight and it's a real stretch to sugest he would be able to beat two of the very best to have fought at the weight.

mikeymax71 wrote:Not sure if this is an article about a fight between the two or Leonard bashing. Leonard chose to fight Hagler when he was too old? I am sure the best preparetion for fighting an all time great at a higher weight is one fight in 5 years!!

Only rematched Duran when he had no chance? did he not beat Duran 5 months after their first fight? Also as for the poor 3rd fight between the two the public were not interest in the fight until Duran had another significant win (after losing to Hagler and steam rolled by Hearns after he had lost to Leonard).

Can only really comment on the Duran fight and the story is that SRL's team knew that Durran would be the party man after the win which is why they invoked the rematch clause as early as possible.

Now that's not really SRL being picky, if anything his team predicted that this would give their man an advantage.

If you actually look at this then Duran messing with SRL's mind in the first fight to get him to brawl was really no different. For me although a huge Duran fan SRL would have the skill set to have won 8/10 anyway.

Cant' disgaree Huw but I kust presumed as it was a vouluntary defence (as Duran had never had a fight at 147 up to then) against Duran that a rematch clause would have been in the contract as a norm?

I agree with your assessment on on their fight though as SRL fought Duran's fight the first time and it was still a close fight so any rematch was always going to be bad news for Duran.

I am guessing that you have all read "The Four Kings", a book I enjoyed .I realised that the onus was equally on Pryor to find the right weight, and I think it's an excellent point.Ultimately ,he had much more to gain with the fight,and as asserted above, Ray didn't have that much intrinsic( the warrior who wants to fight all-comers, a la Duran) or extrinsic(money) motivation for the bout.So I do want to add the caveat that it's not all Ray's fault it didn't happen.
I was actually thinking of the third Duran fight, when I said the latter didn't have a cat in hell'd chance.However Huw correctly points out that the second bout was a great one for Ray ,what with the partying and the fact that he nearly won the first time, whilst fighting the way Duran wanted him too.A decent win, a great performance, but not a shocker.
I am a fan of Leonard, it's just that he was selective with his opponents.Can't blame the guy for this, it's what Calzaghe and Mayweather have admitted to also, yet Leonard doesn't seem to take the same flak.

Leonard fought and beat Duran, Benitez, Hearns etc so I have no doubt he would have fought and beaten Pryor if Pryor pushed himself into position. Pryor needed to move up not Leonard move down.

Is it just me, or are half the posters Welsh these days?

andygf wrote:Is it just me, or are half the posters Welsh these days?

We finally have computers in the valleys!!

The Welsh have always been huge boxing fans.

andygf wrote:Is it just me, or are half the posters Welsh these days?

There are alot around but there always were. Though I'm the original from the beeb boxing boards (5 Live) in 2004.

cool beans, boyos. Good to have some others apart from myself to counter the more hysteric outpourings of a certain Mr. S....

andygf wrote:cool beans, boyos. Good to have some others apart from myself to counter the more hysteric outpourings of a certain Mr. S....

I only wish he was more patriotic.

Got to say I am with Superfly on this, of all the sticks used to beat SRL have always felt the Pryor one is the harshest. End of the day Ray was a welter and had his megafights in that division with guys like Hearns and Duran available and Marv waiting at middle whenever he fancied it, he had no need to go trawling the lower divisions for them and certainly no need to starve himself to make it happen.

I rate Pryor (who doesn't) but if he really wanted Ray he needed to move to welter and make some waves there, and for me had he done that he would have got the fight because whatever you think of the timing of some Ray tended to take the big fights, as to how it goes if it happens, have to pick Ray, world of difference between bullying and smacking around a light weight moving up and doing the same against a fully blown welter with about every asset you could want in a fighter.

I think leonard wins at 147.......He'd struggle with a guy that fights off the wrong foot and does everything wrong right!!! and he'd struggle with the durability and relentless style..

However don't think Pryor would be as effective at 147....

Leonard had more talent..

Leonard by decision.

andygf wrote:
Leonard, whose natural weight was surely Welter and not any of the higher weights,could not drop down a weight to take on a live threat,who unfortunately was not a marquee name.

~ Mr. Andy sir, I was worried that Barney World had surely swallowed you up, so it is refreshing to see you out and about.

Regarding Mr. Leonard: Mr. Pryor made the challenge to his welter title after stepping up from lightweight to challenge the legendary jr welt Cervantes with one of the great all time knockouts. While their boxing styles are different, both Mr. Duran and Pryor have similar fighting attributes that could take Mr. Leonard to the cleaners, but the fight would be close.

Hard to beat the housefighter in a decision, but Mr. Pryor was exactly that type of fighter who took the fight away from the judges, hear~hear!

At the best point for the fight to be made, Mr. Leonard announced the first of several retirements and the rest is history.

Leonard would be far too good for Pryor who is not as good as Hearns or Hagler

How do you know?????

Pryor's problem is that apart from Arguello who he beat twice he lacks big names on his record..

However he retired undefeated and sold out to heroin...

Just my opinion mate I think Hagler and Hearns were better than Pryor and Leonard would be far too good for him.

Nice to have an opinion...just interested in what's behind it...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How do you know?????

Pryor's problem is that apart from Arguello who he beat twice he lacks big names on his record..

However he retired undefeated and sold out to heroin...

He never retired undefeated.

He did the first time...with the title.

Money forced him out half blind a couple of years later..oh pedantic one.

Pryor would have been a hard night for Leonard or anyone for that matter. His chin , stamina, work rate, power and decent defence made him a tough guy to beat.

Leonard however was freakishly talented and unless Pryor could have wound him up like Duran did before their first fight I could see Leonard boxing on the back foot behind his jab and using his speed to stay out of harms way. A few shaky moments along the way but over 15 rounds I would back Leonard to win by a couple of rounds.

As Windy would say, Goodness! Jeff, Lion and Truss! Mission accomplished!
Hate to sound down on Leonard.Heck ,I am a Calzaghe fan and see how boring it is when people slate him ,so I guess I have criticised Ray Leonard for pretty much the same reason,fair dues Pryor has his share of fault for not meeting.
I guess the real politics for a fight not happening, we will never know who to believe . I also guess that when you are a name such as MWJ or SRL, you can afford to sit back and dictate weights.Anyway guys, thanks for humouring me, I appreciate your input.

If it was catchweight say 143 ....and over 15 rounds I'd pick Pryor !!

However 147 I'd have Leonard..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He did the first time...with the title.

Money forced him out half blind a couple of years later..oh pedantic one.

Sorry mate I never knew you meant the first time.

You are right to a point though because second time around saying that was a shadow of him would be an understatement.

Hmm...catchweight....it's a thought, isn't it?

Waingro wrote:Just my opinion mate I think Hagler and Hearns were better than Pryor and Leonard would be far too good for him.

Pryor fights nothing like either Hagler or Hearns, styles makes fights and all that.

Hagler takes Hearns out in 3 but loses to Leonard who was being outboxed by Hearns

Wazzas New Hair wrote:

Waingro wrote:Just my opinion mate I think Hagler and Hearns were better than Pryor and Leonard would be far too good for him.

Pryor fights nothing like either Hagler or Hearns, styles makes fights and all that.

Hagler takes Hearns out in 3 but loses to Leonard who was being outboxed by Hearns

It's a cliché but very true when it comes to those three.

Leonard wins everyday of the week for me, faster, more skilled, better boxing brain. Can't see any particulat weakness in Leonard that Pryor could exploit- yes pryor was relentless and threw loads of puunches, but Leonard would control the range,thus negating this threat. Funnily enough I it playing out like another much discussed fight..

Leonard wins and with some to spare
.Pryor was overrated .
Cheated Arguello and frail mentally.Leonard didnt need to fight him and so didn,t.Better fighter in every way.Pryor had his habit before Leonard
Leonard didnt need Pryor on his resume and he was no threat

Cheated Arguello second time around?

big fan of both these two, but some people underestimate leonard's fighting heart, the hawk takes him to the trenches a la duran but srl would have enough imo.

Union, I take it you haven't seen the pryor hearns fight? It's on youtube. A teenage Tommy as a lightweight? Good fight as it goes but hardly a predictor of a future pro fight at a higher weight.

Although the greatest bulk of Pryors career was done at Light Welterweight Pryor was desperate at a shot at a big name.

He secured his legacy against Arguello as we all know, however at one point he was desperately calling out Leonard as he felt he was getting the credit that Pryor felt he himself deserved. Pryor was a fantastic Lightweight and Light Welterweight however moving up to Welterweight and taking on a big Welterweight with the skill as Leonard could we see him winning?

No question Pryor had a fantastic chin, an amazing will and was to be blunt as crazy as a fox but was a fantastic technical boxer that he showed only in the occassions he truly had to. In turn Leonard is quite possibly the most gifted technically gifted fighter ever with a height and reach advantage to boot, but do we feel he could have lasted with Pryors non stop all out assaults? How do you see a fight between the two panning out over 15 rounds?

Leonard wins this I think. Although Pryor had a good chin, I remember him being tagged flush by Arguello and I think that Leonard, if he tagged Pryor like Arguello did, had the power to force a stoppage win.

I would never argue with anyone who sees Pryor winning. If Duran could come up in weight and beat Leonard then I can't see why Pryor couldn't.

I'd certainly be cheering for Pryor in this fight though. He was one of my favourites in the 80's.

Leonard for me too quick too skilful and to big for Pryor. Can't see a stoppage just a pretty wide UD with Leonard keeping his distance from Pryor all night and dancing rings round him and sticking his jab in the face of Pryor, much to Pryors frustration.

You would have perhaps said the same about Duran the first time around...

Leonard at 147....for me...too big for Pryor there..

Catchweight maybe different.

Not sure Pryor could get at Leonard mentally like Duran did. I've just finished Durans book and he said he knew he had won before the fight started. Even Angelo Dundee said in the book that he was worried about Leonard before the fight.

To have any shot it would have to be over 15..

Pryor was a big jr welt but a jr welt he was just the same..

Not sure how good he was because Alexis aside he never really fought anybody.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote: Not sure how good he was because Alexis aside he never really fought anybody.

Cervantes was highly rated.

Leonard comfortable UD - as everyone else said much too big and Pryor being hyped up would go in all guns blazing and lose the fight in the early rounds as Leonard clocks him at will. To be honest I think that even if he switches to boxing - Leonard has the advantage so cant really say where he would win from apart from in flurries and Leonard was elusive enough to dodge most of the power hits. Even at catchweight most of his advantages remain. The only advantage Pryor may have is a psychological one and even then Leonard had guts in spades. Ali was Poopie his load against both Liston and Foreman but still annihilated them both.

The first problem for Pryor is his stance, much too square so easier for Leonard to pot shot and avoid.

The second is footwork, when Pryor started to box against Argulleo he showed decent footwork but still Arguello landed right after right after right. Rudimentary footwork and poor guard allowed the usually subtle Arguello to telegraph his right and still land - though admittedly to little effect. Leonard will do that with no intention of trying to knock Pryor out and get out of range 8 times out of 10 before he can land a meaningful punch.

Greater fight would be Pryor De La Hoya or Pryor Duran. Much more competitive and both fighters likely to engage.

... it would have been more competitive than you portray imo shah... though i agree with the end result. For a a guy with his skills, one of the criticisms you can make at leonard was that he wasn't that hard to hit. People pick out duran 2 and hagler where he hit and ran, and your suggesting he'd do that with pryor too. It's possible, but he shipped plenty of leather in most of his fights. I reckon Pryor would have landed often enough with his flurries and with his work rate he makes it hard work for srl... wouldn't be enough though.

Agree that pryor de la hoya would have been interesting and duran pryor wouldn't have been one for the faint hearted

True - but I considered that the most likely course - if he did what Arguello did - he would lose - Pryor's punch output being as it is. Leonard does get hit a fair few times - but in both of the fights you mentioned - he really had no other choice - I think he would learn quickly that boxing in range means he loses and decides that he better hit and run. I think he would tire in the latter stages and Pryor would have his way for a couple of rounds but not enough to get within 4 rounds of SRL

fair points... might also depend when this hypothetical fight happened. It took duran 1 for leonard to learn to keep his ego in check - inside the ring at least!

I'd say Pryor was relentless enough to make people engage whether they wanted to or not. Not sure it would help him here though - people forget how close leonard duran 1 was - he could handle himself in the pocket too, so i see him winning however the fight panned out, providing he didn't get too carried away. No doubt an easier nights work on the outside, as you say, but tough going regardless.

I think Leonard has a problem that where he normally fights in the pocket- he doesn't really have the brute force to stun the opponent or accumulate damage ala chavez. He does fair to decent damage but not enough to hurt someone like Pryor/Duran enough to keep em off.

If as you say it was a trilogy then yes I would give 2-1 Leonard after losing the first, but as is with these fantasy match ups you have consider everything in one fight - rather than in this fight he would do this and lose but learn and beat him in any subsequent fights.

he lacks the brute force, but has those fasts stunning flurries and enough one shot power if he loads up to stop people taking liberties. Your points are fair though - don't think we're actually disagreeing on much here!

Discussing rather than disagreeing I think.

Phew, a discussion rather than disagreement...I won't tell the others you are doing that.It'll be secret.