Wallabies - where to from here?

First topic message reminder :

The pain and disappointment of Saturday is finally dissipating, and it has left me considering where to now.  I don't have a background in rugby, but sport is sport, so I have been thinking about the more general (or non-technical I guess) actions and attitudes I hope the camp are taking.  

1.  The first thing is that I hope they haven't dropped their bundle and decided they need to become a narrower side.  This side simply isn't going to be effective at that, will be beaten by every other contender if they try, and we don't have a kicker to carry it off, so I hope they stick to what they have been developing.

2.  Accept and embrace the changed challenges ahead.  There are also positives in playing teams you know well.

3.  Get Barnes onto the field to get some practice and rhythm, but back Cooper to the hilt.  He is the best playmaker we have for bringing Beale, JOC, Ioane, and AAC into the game.  With any other playmaker, the opposition get a narrower field to defend, and that suits them more than us.  He takes a lot of flak, but people don't only obsess about him because he stole a laptop and can't tackle.  He also brings a little bit of fear.  And besides, he's one of ours now and everyone else can ...

4.  My last sentence leads me here. Id like to see them go all siege for the remainder of their time in the tourney.  I wont care if i dont hear another thing out of their mouths, if they can use the anger. While not everything, emotion is valuable and has certainly worked against us this year.   So go old school and make sure they know people from all over no longer rate them.  The hosts are showing their hate of us and our team, so tap into it and use it to advantage.

5.  Do whatever it takes to get Palu, Taf,and Mitchell up to speed.  They are players that will bend the line and we are going to need them even if only backup. Also play Horne for the next two at 13.  Where Phipps and Sai'a are there as the next best available, there really is no point in Horne unless they consider him as offering some thing to the main team.

What are you blokes thinking?  I'd be interested especially in the technical stuff that we have a chance of fixing.

Taylorman wrote:
And ill be damned if ill be teaching my son to play the game to 'kick for touch'.
'Get your team in a position for johnny over there to kick all your teams points'
'donr risk spinning the ball wide or running it because you might get turned over and penalised'
but above all son. Enjoy the game!

Man some people need a reality check.

Tell me this Taylorman. How many kickable opportunities did Australia turn down against Ireland? How many times did Australia run the ball compared to Ireland? How many times did their respective wingers get the ball?

I think its the people that are claiming Australia only lost because of negative tactics by Ireland that need a reality check.

Jeezus some people are just sore feckin loosers.

My comments were nothing to do with the Ireland Oz game which I enjoyed immensely.
Its the taking of that one game and projected it into the stratosphere as the way to play the game. Most tryless affairs ARE boring. In fact 90% of them. This one is the exception and what gets me is how its now representative of the fact that tryscoring isnt everything cos gee...look what happens when you dont get tries- you get brilliant games like this all the time...

roddersm wrote:

I think its the people that are claiming Australia only lost because of negative tactics by Ireland that need a reality check.

Jeezus some people are just sore feckin loosers.

As an unbiased observer. The reason Oz lost was:

1 The best if not second best no.7 was missing and Oz have no replacement anywhere near him
2 The best winger in the world was missing
3 Ireland played brilliantly and Oz were not able to cope with either their tactics or execution or make up for the missing players

My opinion is the 3 ingredients above contributed to the loss.

Like the titanic Oz could have coped with no. 3 if factors 1 and 2 were not present but not all 3. Pocock AND Ioane were needed for Oz to have even a chance, and that wouldnt have guaranteed a win, nor a loss. they just would have had a better chance.

Sorry I misinterpreted your comments Taylorman. Fair points above.

taylorman
I know I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, but i wouldn't underestimate the the loss of Moore either.
Every team is subject to injuries, its just that some have better resources to cover them.

Yes I meant to say that as well but 3 seemed enough. A tight, a loose and a key back that also doubled up as Coopers protector. And all 3 fell apart at the seams.. agreed...

From the mind of Rocky:

Running rugby hopes not dashed

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/running-rugby-hopes-not-dashed/story-e6frg7o6-1226143939002

AS the World Cup enters its third week, it is becoming much clearer what style of play is proving the most successful and which tactics are no longer in vogue -- but there is still hope for the lovers of running rugby.

The first and most notable trend is that field position is key and teams are happily exchanging possession for a patch of grass further down the paddock.

In the big matches of the tournament so far, the success rate for players under the high ball has declined, the number of penalties at the breakdown against the attacking team has increased, and the number of phases in the middle of the field has plummeted.

It seems rather than chance your arm in attack, looking for the sidelines or putting up a bomb is proving more fortuitous, and turning every opposition breakdown into something that looks like a car wreck is less risky than pilfering the ball and relying on set pieces. Throw in a good goal-kicker and you've got a good chance to go all the way.

But rather than write the tournament off as the pinnacle of 10-man rugby, a good side still has the opportunity to do much more than that and still be very successful on the scoreboard.

As Ireland showed, nothing can be achieved without urgency and aggression. Their forwards' work on the Wallabies ball-carrier was top notch. On many occasions they got more numbers to the contact area and held the player upright, thereby stymieing possession. It was a great example of attacking defence.

As Samoa hammered away inside the Welsh quarter late in the match last Sunday, there were glimpses of holes but they soon closed and it seemed a counter-attack try would be more likely.

Broadly speaking, if you think that getting through the phases will open up space eventually, then be prepared to be disappointed and tired. It is clear that during dewy night games and with more leniency at the tackle, defenders have an advantage. The only way to take that advantage away is to get the opposition on the back foot.

Presenting more deception about who is going to carry the ball and where his options might lie often requires defenders to either hesitate or guess, and both of these usually present good results for attackers.

The opportunity is well and truly there for a side that can get their attack into top gear, but it will need to be more convincing than the spate of second-man plays that have littered the tournament's first round .

Of course, tactical kicking is going to hold enormous importance but nothing is easier for a kicker than to find the touchline behind a winger who has to defend up to stop the attack.

And it goes without saying that a team cannot survive without defence but even great defences can only hold for so long when they are up against opponents that use the ball well.

So it's 10 man rugby all the way - what I have been saying all along. No point in running the ball for fear of being caught at the breakdown and penalised.

2007 all over again.

SA looking pretty I think.

Yeah getting think that way myself rob.
Bit tougher for oz with nowhere near the type of gameplan or team structure of what seems to be the template.
Deans will know all this and came up with a solution for suncorp. First time i've really seen his efforts directly reflected on the field on such a short timeframe.
I think he'll come up with a hybrid of the current oz and the SA type setup.
I think its a blessing this happened in pool play as oz could have hit this last 8.

Why is it ten man rugby? If the interpretations of the referee has changed then it just means Australia needs to be more clinical in their execution. To me that is a poor reason to nw deem a world cup changing course because referees are pinging the attacking team.

Australia and New Zealand are the masters of the offload and both have two of the best open side flankers in the world in Pocock and McCaw.

Don't see the weakness of the australian forwards during the Irish match as the reason why "another" world cup is going to go pearshaped according to you "purists" of running rugby.

If australia execute their basics at the breakdown well they will have no issues, besides aren't we suppose to learn how to play to the referee on the match day?

To me it is a little ridiculous that australia and New zealand's supporters now want to establish this us and them attitude because Australia lost because of clever tactics.

We won't change the way we play no matter the laws (and haven't) and neither would Australia or New Zealand.

Taking all this into account, this is not SA looking pretty at all, we have to play the two teams where Australia has had it over us for the last two tri nations, and New Zealand the perrenial masters of rugby. Don't forget we are the team that has been written off by all and sundry in australasia, we are the ones that has sent an aging team with a game plan of 50 years ago and few on form players to the world cup.

I think this laager you have drawn is ridiculous.

Hi ya Biltong,
Not the best of nights last night with distractions of other sorts. Ended up posting all sorts of rubbish- even contradicted

myself elsewhere so apologies for that...Annoyed I missed the SA Namibia match as well. "Must not post late at...", "Must not post..."

Anyway, back on track now and looking forward to the Oz USA match tonight and this weekends matches.

At this point in time (prior to NZ's or Englands big matches) I'd say SA are now favourites.

For the last few months, and in between a couple of downer periods for you at sxv end and 3N, youve been holding the view that the

SA template from 2007- big defence, position and goalkickers- I wouldnt necessarily call it 10 man rugby though- would remain the status quo for 2011. It appears to now be the case and right now I think SA then NZ then in one group Oz, France, Ire, Wales and England would be next.

2 observations I have is when the 3N teams next meet, other than the psychological factors of this being a world cup, matches between these 3 should for all intents and purposes be a 3N match- same teams, same players, same coaches and methods and same grounds. The only real difference is the referees. Rather than being flown in for a one off the referees will have been reffing world cup matches and its possible these matches will be influenced by a certain style, regardless of what the style is, but it is a 'difference' whatever that means.

This is one explanation as to why at world cup time we have this preferred 'style'. Might not be right but things have certainly changed from sxv, through 3N, to now.

The other thing is unlike 2007, we know it now. In time. Deans knows it and Henry knows it, and SA is already doing it. Ireland and SA in their matches have set the mood for matches to come. For Oz, who have probably the most opposite metrics for the style (not a great pack, defence or goalkickers) but they do have talent and Deans was able to muster a huge turnaround for Suncorp. So he will come up with something, perhaps a bit of what they have now and whats required- I don't know.

NZ have the players to play the type of game if they need to and might do well at it. I think NZ will still stick to its current gameplan and will have the 'template' in mind, but I also think henry will have an ace up his sleeve somewhere. I'm hoping that largely involves scoring tries as if we were to get up and win this, I'd prefer it to be done the AB way. I think thats important. But if not, all good, we'll play the game.

The NH teams will all play the same way other than France where I can see now why they lost 2007- they beat us (who werent following the template) then lost to teams that were...just an afterthought that one. But it makes sense.

Anyway, your turn to sit back and watch this weekend Biltong and I promise no more rants like that again...

Taylorman, all good.

The fact is we have been under the kosh with PDV for so long I can't remember what it feels like to be confident going into a match.

Where are the days where the only team we feared was the all Blacks?

Now we have to worry about teams like wales, Ireland et all.

I still don't see us near favourites though. Rassie erasmus seems to have made some impact on the way we play, specifically recognising opportunities to go wide and offloading in the tackle as you well know we aren't famous for.

If you have watched all three games we have played so far you will have seen that we stick to our plan and only start innovating moves (who would have thought we could) once ahead by 10 points or more.

That is what PDV and many pundits at home to refer as earning the right to go wide.

I am comfortable with that, and I think we have Rassie to thank for that. So if the games are close we will stick to the hard running channel one attempts at breaking the line, keep the offloading to a minimum and kick our goals.

But hopefully we will have a decent start against the aussies and be able to showcase some of our ability against a Tri Nation team.

Although I still have very little confidence that we will be able to knock over australia.

Yes it must be pleasing to get a roll on for once.
I believe SA are a kind of Ireland plus. Similar but stronger and more experienced at it.
Plus a huge goalkicking range.
Its the type of style that once on a roll will be hard to stop.
You might be not opening up until a certain point but as you get on a roll the players get better at it and get to that point quicker with practice. Scary. And look at those scores!

Oz will come back as they have a bit of time to sort things out. I really can't tell what henry must be thinking about it all. There must have been a shift over the last week.

Things are getting interesting and time to support our little 3N club i think.

Yeah, we need to remain calm in adversity, just a big shame we will cancel each other out during the knock outs, at least whoever comes out ontop to compete in the final will have my support irrespective which team it may be.

Rob B wrote:So it's 10 man rugby all the way - what I have been saying all along. No point in running the ball for fear of being caught at the breakdown and penalised.

2007 all over again.

SA looking pretty I think.

Mate, perhaps I'm seeing what I want to see, but I interpreted it differently. I see a few nuggets to suggest they still have faith in using their wide men, but realize they need to do it significantly better than the way they did v Ireland.

For memory you live in HK so wouldn't be able to see it, but Kafer showed some vision last night to highlight there is still space out there, but we were no good at finding it. That'll be the challenge I guess.

Good luck with usa booma. A should win and hopefully oz can get some things back on track.
Looking forward to seeing some slick moves in this one and to see how drew mitchell goes. One of my fave oz players.

Thanks Taylor

biltongbek wrote: Don't forget we are the team that has been written off by all and sundry in australasia, we are the ones that has sent an aging team with a game plan of 50 years ago and few on form players to the world cup.

Morn biltong!!

As same was said of England in 2003, where they then promptly won the cup!!!

OzT, the difference was England dominated all but the AllBlacks before the world cup, we haven't

True, but you and England have the style to win these knock out games.

But onto the match on now, USA kicked the ball deep to no one inparticular, Cooper takes the pass at speed, dodged a few and try. Hope it's the start of a revival for us now

Oath, and now Rocky scored..

We've tried 2 kickers now and 2 misses at the post.... who next to kick??

And then Cooper did a one on one tackle to stop a try!! What's happening?? I am goingh to stop watching the game, it's not real.... Cooper did a tackle??

Taylorman wrote:I believe SA are a kind of Ireland plus. Similar but stronger and more experienced at it.

In your dreams Biltong

I don't think we are seeing 2007 all over again at all. Most teams are trying to play with the ball. Bar England v Argentina I don't think there have been any dire games at all.

It's always difficult to see fluent expansive rugby in the RWC because there is so much pressure on the teams to win. I think once we get into the knock out stages it will come down to the packs, defences and goal kickers but I don't think thats down to a lack of attacking ambition but because ultimately they are the key areas the decide game. The AB's don't win games because of guys like SBW, Smith, Nonu and Dagg, they win because the likes of McCaw, Thorn, Kaino etc. smash teams at the breakdown and they are able to generate such quick ball and turn over the opposition.

SA have played some great attacking rugby in this tournament but again when your strengths are too play it tight why would you throw the ball around when you can out muscle the opposition?

It's a bit like criticising Rafa Nadal for not serve volleying more.

USA just caught Oz napping again and scored a try down the blind side. 10-5 to Oz. USA USA USA!

Feck if the Wallabies think we use spoiling tactics they're in for a shock today, the USA were offside at every ruck against us!

leinsterbaby wrote:USA just caught Oz napping again and scored a try down the blind side. 10-5 to Oz. USA USA USA!

Sorry to disappoint. 67-5

Faingaa had a sickening collision. Beale went off at halftime. Australia have Russia to repair the walking wounded. AAC bags a hat-trick but will he be moved back to OC? The problem for Australia is time and these nothing games they have now after the Ireland matches are not the best preparation for a titanic clash with SA. The only good news is there is time for Australia to recover some injured players. The bad news is those players will be underdone in terms of match fitness and Australia will need all their reserves to defeat somebody they have been good at beating recently. But this is a World Cup and to be honest I can´t remember too many SA vs Australia RWC match ups.

Kia, there has only been two RWC matches, our famous opening match in 1995.

And the extra time drop goal from Larkham in the 1999 semi final.

Good on you mate. Can´t believe I forgot 99. Must have been spitting about the other semi final result and blocked out all other games!

Knew I could count on you though. Now just dig out those stats on your other thread for me and I´ll buy you a beer.

Could you at least point me in the right direction, it will take forever to find that out.

One thing that might help Oz is that Samoa are now in knockout mode. They need to beat Fiji to have a crack at SA for the Wales no. 2 spot.

Then they'll give SA a heavy physical encounter, this time with a good interval to prepare. A SA knockout match for them might or might not help Oz- on one side SA could have key injuries or be battle fatigued. On the other it could give SA the tough match they need before meeting Oz.

The other thing is Kia is correct. Oz have time to sort a gameplan and SA for certain are predictable- two things in their favour. SA are now saying "Here we are, come and beat us if you can". Its just whether you can thats the thing.

In 2007 Oz, France and NZ obviously played into the trap of playing the open game. This time we'll all be guarded so things will be very interesting.

Yes, I am worried about our match vs Australia, I know we can match them on defence, in the breakdowns, lineouts, scrums, but whether we can out think them on the pitch is the question.

I just hope that the way we played in our last two matches weren't a false dawn. australia will expect us to be predictable, hopefully we will show a few things they haven't seen, not sure they will be able to adjust before it is too late then.

Yep. The other unknown is injuries. All teams have been hit, none more so than Oz so theyre a little on the brittle side- not sure how those injuries went last night? Faainga ndidnt look too good.

But Oz still showed when those key players link up what theyre capable of. For SA momentum is key for that style. Whether its a compliment (its meant to be) or not the image of a stormtrooper march through Europe comes to mind where this relentless machine just squashes anything in its path, the ozzies being the French partizans throwing wine bottle fill with nitro at the tanks from every angle from the cover of the shopfronts.

Don't take it wrong Biltong but sometimes the Boks remind of the German football team. Ruthless, relentless, structured and efficient.

One things for sure after the sxv and 3N this year that match is going to be a STUNNER!

biltongbek wrote:Could you at least point me in the right direction, it will take forever to find that out.

Sure mate. I´ll point you to the internet. The rest is up to you and google.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Could you at least point me in the right direction, it will take forever to find that out.

Sure mate. I´ll point you to the internet. The rest is up to you and google.

Now i know exactly where to look.

One thing i'm comfortable about is the thought of having Morne Steyn and not Quade cooper kicking for goals for the Boks. If the Bok defence can hold the convicts out and not concede any tries we could have the upper hand thanks to The Bulls sharpshooter

Yea someone will be doing a lot of practising. Except cooper wont get any crowd favours at eden park which is unfortunate.
Be interesting what oz come up with.

Just chatted to the old man, sounds like Horne is out. Callup for Matt Giteau?

Yeah that was always on the cards I reckon. Gitau's a must now for his experience. Even his goalkickings better than the rest.

Knew that was a mistake to not have him in the squad. He could become the settling figure (how odd!)

Dingo Dean now has to swallow his pride and call up Gits , thats got to be a nice and akward phone call

From memory I thought Gits did say he was on stand by (I think)

If McCabe dislocated his shoulder as reported, he would surely be gone as well, so hey would possibly he looking for two centres. Beale and Palu with hamstrings also. Ioane got his cast off yesterday.

From an update in the paper:

WELLINGTON: Australian coach Robbie Deans ...

Deans said Rob Horne's fractured cheekbone, sustained in his first tackle of the match, was a "minor displacement" and classified as "promising".

Outside centre Anthony Fainga'a, who scored a brace of tries, was knocked clean out when he took a knee to a head while attempting a tackle in the last minute of the game.

He received several minutes of on-field treatment before being taken off on a stretcher, but Deans said that was par for the course.

"It never looks good, but the stretcher's protocol in those circumstances. He can recall everything including the moments leading up to the tackle, so that's a great sign," the former All Black said.

"We will monitor him, it's not something we mess around with. We want to make sure he's fully recovered before he enters the fray. We will not be re-entering Anthongy Fainga'a until he's fit and able."

Pat McCabe, who came on as a replacement for Horne, suffered a "sublaxed" (dislocated) shoulder, Deans dubbing the injury as not as "grave as it potentially could be".

No 8 Wycliff Palu will undergo an MRI scan on his hamstring strain, while hat-trick scorer Adam Ashley-Cooper "jammed his ankle, so he's not moving very freely but it's nothing too sinister".

Full-back Kurtley Beale and winger Drew Mitchell both tightened up, while the four players unavailable for selection - Digby Ioane (broken thumb), David Pocock (back), Scott Higginbotham (back), James Horwill (hamstring) - were all "progressing well".

11 injuries now. It seems Horne, Faingaa, McCabe may not be as bad as first thought. The issue is whether Deans will swallow his pride and call for an open side flanker to replace one of the cetnres for an 18-12 forwards/backs split. Pocock needs a back up and McCalman is out of his depthe in that spot.


Injuries will allow Deans to re-construct the backline that took down the ABs in Hong Kong.

9 Genia, 10 Cooper, 11. Mitchell 12. Barnes 13. AAC 14 O'Connor 15 Beale.

Barnes simply has to be installed as the goal kicker and probably did enough to force his way into the team.

Taylorman wrote:Gitau's a must now for his experience. Even his goalkickings better than the rest.

(how odd!)

No it isn't!

It was a good effort from Horne if that happened in the first minute. A try for himself and a part in a second one. I thought I also saw Taf clutching his knee at one point, but no mention of it yet.

Yes hopefully the injury is not too bad. Problem with Taf and Palu is they are both so injury prone, and this is continuing - not getting any real value out of them. And Taf simply doesn't look fit to me, he is still doing a lot of standing and walking around watching the action IMO. It is another Deans gamble that to date is not paying off. Barnes looked good and seemed to bring a bit of calm to the backline when he plugged in. He's a good foil for Cooper as well.

Injury update hashed together as most likely from the various articles.

Rob Horne - MRI in Christchurch today with decision to be made if staying; Now reported as a double break, so Giteau or Tapaui likely to be bought in.
Wycliffe Palu - MRI in Christchurch today with decision to be made if staying; Can't tell if he is more chance to stay or go, but Hodgeson likely to be bought in if he goes.

Dan Vickerman - "Precautionary" MRI in Christchurch today on previous stress fractures
Pat McCabe - staying as long as he keeps improving at the same rate

JOC - through his first contact session
Ant Faingaa - ok, but will miss a week
Ioane - sounds like he is expected back for the quarters

Kurtley Beale - ok
Ashley-Cooper - ok
Pocock - ok


So best fully fit team at the moment is probably:

Alexander; Moore; Kepu
Horwill; Sharpe
Elsom; Samo; Pocock
Genia; Cooper
Barnes; AAC
Mitchell; Beale; O'Conner

TPN; Slipper; Simmons; McCalman; Burgess; ?; ?

Horwill and Higgin are good to go

Good. Pocock now back available as well.

Palu ruled out with a 6 week hamstring tear. No decision as yet on a replacement. Im guessing it will be Hodgeson, but would still prefer Beau Robinson. Hodgeson more a 6/7 Other possibles could be Timani, Dave Dennis, Phil Waugh, Jarrod Saffy or please-god-no-Dean-Mumm.

Vickerman cleared of any redevelopment of stress factures. McCabe staying and expected to be available for QF. Horne staying and expected to be available for SF. Faingaa out this week, but ok after that. Beale out this week with hamstring strain.