Liston / Tyson

Well as I have done my first post in a very long time ranting over boxnation i thought i would post some thing about boxing that does not make me want to puke. I remember on the old 606 someone else posting this same articule and it brought up a few good responces. Who out of Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson would you rather face? Which of them do you think inspired the most fear?

For me I would have to say Liston. For all of Tysons rants, raves (leg biting) and other antics, i dont think any of them could match up to that blank haunted look of Liston as he stared across the ring at you. Thoughts?

Would depend if you meant for a date or a fight.

Neither. Both were intimidating prospects but I don't fancy being punched to death. Tyson scares me as he's proper mental but Sonny was the better fighter imo. Either way it would be quick and painful. If they fought which is a better question Sonny KO's him.

I agree, Liston would win. Not as clear cut though. I think Tyson (as in the holyfield fight) lost heart if he could not bully his foe. Liston would not be intimidated but as the first Ali fight showed, if things did not go his way could lose heart

I think Tyson would be beat Liston because of his superior hand and foot speed. Listion had a great jab and was very strong, but as already highlighted he could lose heart. I agree Lisont would not be afraid of Tyson and for me that would be his downfall. H ewould look to meet 'Iron; Mike in the middle of the ring and the superior speed and head movement of Tyson will see Mike land powerful combinations and wear Sonny down without taking too much punishment.

Probably not a clean KO for Mike but possibly Sonny quitting on his stool or being resuced by the referee about 6th round.

If it got to the later stages and Sonny still has some gas in the tank then he could pull out a late stoppage as even in his prime, Tyson was a very average fighter after 6-7 rounds of a fight.

If it's a straight up question of " which of the two would I fear the most ? " and if that question supposes that I am not a world class fighter then I have no hesitation in saying that I'd be more afraid of Liston.

Tyson would come out all coils and springs, letting off those awesome combinations and I'd probably be face down and comatose before he hurt me. Liston, on the other hand, liked letting go those terrible hooks to the body, and if they could damned near break Floyd Patterson in half I dread to think what they would do to me. The very thought of Sonny caving in my ribs and squashing my kidneys is filling me with dread as I'm writing this.

Liston didn't seem to bother putting on the constipated bull dog scowl that Tyson did, he just stared blankly like Joe Louis. Deep, dark and haunted. Scariest heavyweight of all time for my money.

Second what Windy says.

Tyson would seperate me from my senses with a single shot to the chin and it would tubby bye byes for badger!!

Liston would probabley whack me in the ribs first giving me a brief couple of seconds to vomit and defecate myself before collapsing in a twitching heap.

HumanWindmill wrote: The very thought of Sonny caving in my ribs and squashing my kidneys is filling me with dread as I'm writing this.

... don't worry windy, he died 40 odd years ago, its not going to happen mate. Don't want you having nightmares.

Frankly, both liston and tyson would terrify me equally. Though so would most pro fighters with the possible exception of Pauli Malignaggi

Ha !

You do have a point, milky.

Sometimes imagination can be a curse rather than a blessing, can't it ?

Liston was far more scary, i think Tyson would have wet himself if he was looking at those dead eyes across the ring. I wonder how Liston would really be rated among all time heavyweights if there had been no Mob involvement in his career. I dont doubt Ali was an amazing fighter but nothing will ever convince me that he beat the real Sonny Liston in either fight. People also forget Liston never turned Pro till he was around 25 and was probably 35+ before he even got a title shot so his peak was probably already behind him yet he was still able to destroy Patterson twice. In the right circumstances Sonny could have been in the top 3 of all time.

Liston, because he's dead. I'd fancy my chances under those circumstances.

Tyson gets out of breath reading an autocuse these days.

I'd be more afraid of Liston, personally - and drifting over the the who beats who element, I've always fancied him as one of the two Heavyweight champions from previous eras who'd not only beat Tyson, but would make short work of him (the other being Foreman, of course).

It's an interesting one; the reasons that Mikey picks Tyson to win are, in fact, the very same ones that lead me to the other side of the spectrum and pick Liston to win. Liston could lose heart, that's true - but he did prove his mettle more than given credit for, particularly in the way he roared back to stop Williams in their first bout after being hurt himself early on. While neither were the strongest when it came to mental resolve, I'd still say Liston has the edge. The simple fact of the matter is that, no matter how fast or powerful they are, a 5'10" Heavyweight with a short reach like Tyson is, sooner or later, going to struggle against a rangy ramrod jab. The warning signs were there for Tyson as early as the Tillis fight, and the Douglas bout was the ultimate confirmation. Even if Tyson's fabled head movement is there early on, Liston would simply take it away I reckon after softening his face up with a few of those thunderous jabs.

So then we have the question - if Tyson does get inside and it becomes a shootout, what happens? Well, I'm not convinced that Tyson was the stronger man, personally. I see Liston winning the battle of the muscle, quickly forcing Tyson to give away ground (a position he hardly enjoyed) and getting him out of there by the fifth round or so.

mikeymax71 wrote:I think Tyson would be beat Liston because of his superior hand and foot speed. Listion had a great jab and was very strong, but as already highlighted he could lose heart. I agree Lisont would not be afraid of Tyson and for me that would be his downfall. H ewould look to meet 'Iron; Mike in the middle of the ring and the superior speed and head movement of Tyson will see Mike land powerful combinations and wear Sonny down without taking too much punishment.

Probably not a clean KO for Mike but possibly Sonny quitting on his stool or being resuced by the referee about 6th round.

If it got to the later stages and Sonny still has some gas in the tank then he could pull out a late stoppage as even in his prime, Tyson was a very average fighter after 6-7 rounds of a fight.

Well done to Mikey for not reading the question. Hats off to you, sir!

I'd show little or no fear in front of either. My superior handspeed and reflexes coupled with my iron chin and unshakeable belief in my own abilities would render the issue null and voi...oh, sorry, I thought it said, if you were Muhammed Ali, who would you be most afraid of. I just did what Mikey did

I don't think Tyson has more than a 30% to win. Frightening as Tyson was, he would come TO liston rather than make Liston chase him ala Ali. Liston seemed more afraid of embarrasment rather than hurt. Look over his career and his own life and you will see he was more scared of being done over than hurt.

He was one of those poor souls who are lost when in normal life and at ease in the violent life - or with kids, where there is little chance of being embarrassed. Sad story of his life after he won the title and returned home and not having anyone waiting for him at the airport to cheer him on.

That jab is the key, and like windy said, Liston hits to the body, head movement slows quicker than usual and young Tyson goes into survival mode.

That 30% chance is in the first 3 rounds when his head movement is most active. Even there is his weakness - when someone has a good jab you need to slip and hit at the same time, ala my personal favourite - Duran where the time between slipping setting and punching is so minuscule as to appear instant. Tyson overdid it and if he does the same against liston he gets drilled in the ribs for his trouble.

That over hand right has to work for Tyson otherwise he is gone.

Liston KO 10

ShahenshahG wrote:I don't think Tyson has more than a 30% to win. Frightening as Tyson was, he would come TO liston rather than make Liston chase him ala Ali. Liston seemed more afraid of embarrasment rather than hurt. Look over his career and his own life and you will see he was more scared of being done over than hurt.

He was one of those poor souls who are lost when in normal life and at ease in the violent life - or with kids, where there is little chance of being embarrassed. Sad story of his life after he won the title and returned home and not having anyone waiting for him at the airport to cheer him on.

That jab is the key, and like windy said, Liston hits to the body, head movement slows quicker than usual and young Tyson goes into survival mode.

That 30% chance is in the first 3 rounds when his head movement is most active. Even there is his weakness - when someone has a good jab you need to slip and hit at the same time, ala my personal favourite - Duran where the time between slipping setting and punching is so minuscule as to appear instant. Tyson overdid it and if he does the same against liston he gets drilled in the ribs for his trouble.

That over hand right has to work for Tyson otherwise he is gone.

Liston KO 10

I see Shah and Mikey are the same person...

Tyson would knock this dude out early

Aah, they appear to be triplets

LOL. Sorry lads, I accidently scrolled down and saw Mikeys post and responded duly. I think I would rather face Tyson who would knock me out with a monster punch rather than Liston knocking me out with a casual Jab.

If it were a head to head I'd be interested to see if there's any fighter in history who could go to Liston and win. Didn't Foreman once say he couldn't budge him in sparring?

James Jeffries could maybe go to Liston and win but not many others.

Clay showed you didn't have to possess a wallop to beat Liston

DAVE667 wrote:Clay showed you didn't have to possess a wallop to beat Liston

But instead need to be a bit of a freak for a heavyweight, able to move like a middleweight and have an incredible chin. Easy then!!

huw wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Clay showed you didn't have to possess a wallop to beat Liston

But instead need to be a bit of a freak for a heavyweight, able to move like a middleweight and have an incredible chin. Easy then!!

If it was easy, we could all do it but that's not to say it's impossible

Simple is different from easy. Ali made it look simple, I doubt if any second of a fight against a puncher like Liston is easy.

DAVE667 wrote:

huw wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Clay showed you didn't have to possess a wallop to beat Liston

But instead need to be a bit of a freak for a heavyweight, able to move like a middleweight and have an incredible chin. Easy then!!

If it was easy, we could all do it but that's not to say it's impossible

I really can't think of another heavyweight in history that could have beaten him in the manner that Ali / Clay did. There may have been others that could have beaten him in a different way but Clay just humiliated him (first fight, second doesn't count!).

Not sure it would be a blueprint to follow as such.

Lewis, Tyson and Klichko would beat him imo

Waingro wrote:Lewis, Tyson and Klichko would beat him imo

I would say Tyson would struggle to win 1/10 fights with Liston. Actually think Tyson would be afraid of Liston, not many other heavyweights in history would I think Tyson would be frightened to face but for me Liston would beat him easily.

Lewis may be able to break his heart through boxing clever probably 6/10 for Lewis for me.

Klitscho - which one? Wlad for me, no chance. Vitali would have more chance and because of his chin may be able to win 5/10, really tough call that one.

I think Liston would be afraid of Tyson tbh

Waingro wrote:I think Liston would be afraid of Tyson tbh

Given Liston spent time in one of America's toughest prisons and made a living as a strong arm for the mob, I really suspect he wouldn't have been

Waingro wrote:I think Liston would be afraid of Tyson tbh

Anyone who knows even the tiniest thing about Charles "Sonny" Liston knows what a ridiculous statement that is mate, he would have just aimed that dead stare at a little fella like Tyson and Iron Mike would know how much trouble he was in. No little heavyweight had a chance against him he just ruined them as quick as possible then he went and got drunk.

Liston once said that Ali, for want of a better word, freaked him out because he thought Ali was crazy, a loose cannon like Tyson would do the same.

He probably wouldn't be afraid of Tyson, but he would have been unnerved by him, especially if Tyson went off on one at the weigh in.

I give a mid-late stoppage for Liston.

Big Paul wrote:Liston once said that Ali, for want of a better word, freaked him out because he thought Ali was crazy, a loose cannon like Tyson would do the same.

He probably wouldn't be afraid of Tyson, but he would have been unnerved by him, especially if Tyson went off on one at the weigh in.

I give a mid-late stoppage for Liston.

I don't know, Tyson was a different crazy to the crazy he thought Ali was.

Tyson would be the crazy he probably dealt with in prison / on the streets (crazy / violent), Ali did seem like a nutter (complete fruit cake)!

88Chris05 wrote: The simple fact of the matter is that, no matter how fast or powerful they are, a 5'10" Heavyweight with a short reach like Tyson is, sooner or later, going to struggle against a rangy ramrod jab. The warning signs were there for Tyson as early as the Tillis fight, and the Douglas bout was the ultimate confirmation. .

~ Why sir, would you care to speculate how many 19 year old kids could knock down an experienced ring contender and coast to a decision?

I thought not.

The simpleton fact of the matter that Mr. Cooper exposed the china chin of Mr. Ali.....oh wait.....tally ho~ho.........

Maybe windy could check and find whether the wally above is an alias of ericdacat or somebody...

Bored of his LRR impersonation even down to the so-called love for Leon Spinks..

Hahaha, I remember LRR reducing trussman to rabies-like frothing at the mouth on many a occasion. Why did he get banned from 606? I remember a rather heated argument leading to 2-3 top posters being banned.

Revisionist history....Gotta love it!

New trend - don't like what someone has to say, don't worry just add the words - revisionist history. The study of Man can be done in the most unlikely of places.

That's very good......

We can all BS about the past....just prefer a little more accuracy from you..

Don't dislike what you say... or like what you say..

If I'm honest..

My bad, answered in a rush before going out. Tyson for me as the most scary as I genuinely think he a screw loose. Threatening to eat children and raping men untile they stated their undying love for him is not someone I want to stand opposite.

Liston would kick your ass, but at least that is all he would do. Mike would do so much to you that even being unconscious, your torment may not be over

Sir. badgerhands wrote:

Liston would probabley whack me in the ribs first giving me a brief couple of seconds to vomit and defecate myself before collapsing in a twitching heap.

a thank you to badger for my laugh out loud moment of the day

Both as freightening as each other IMO. Would pick Liston over Tyson, whose legendary head movement was more mythical from what I rememmber- great for one or two rounds and then... I recall reading KO magazine shortly after his fight with Thomas, an there was an article looking at Tyson's weakness, which included
1. his lack of head movement- yes he could slip punches, but he never got in a bobbing and weaving rhyme like Frazier for example, and often he would slip inside a punch , and step forward, if his opponent didn't move backwards this often lead to a clinch, where his second weakness bacame apparent.
2. He wasn't very good a fighting on the inside- as the fights against Smith, Thomas, Green all displayed. He was very passive in clinches, just waited for the ref to separate them. Infighters such as Frazier, Marciano etc would have slow taken a guy like Smith to pieces if they had tried that with them.Conversely his best performances- Holmes, Spinks, featured far fewer clinches

Sorry went a bit off topic there, but basically Liston beats on the outside, and beats him on the inside. Sonny by KO

All the people who I know who have a boxing background( have actually boxed) all seem pretty much seem to agree that tyson could have been the best EVER. However he didnt have the self discipline to train like a true champ and got wacked by douglas.
Very interesting to see that people who spend far too much time critisising boxers (with zero ring experience themselves) come to the same conclusion that tyson was merely a myth, and anyone who thinks otherwise(mainly ex boxers) dont know what they are on with.

aja424 wrote:All the people who I know who have a boxing background( have actually boxed) all seem pretty much seem to agree that tyson could have been the best EVER. However he didnt have the self discipline to train like a true champ and got wacked by douglas.
Very interesting to see that people who spend far too much time critisising boxers (with zero ring experience themselves) come to the same conclusion that tyson was merely a myth, and anyone who thinks otherwise(mainly ex boxers) dont know what they are on with.

That's just the point though isn't it- He had all the natural gifts / potential but he failed to apply them. No one is claiming he's a myth- for me he's top ten, cleaned out a division, and was the most exciting boxer of his generation. That doesn't mean that he didn't have weaknesses, but his strenghts tended to hide these weakness, esp. given the lack of decent challengers during his first reign. It also remains that many aspects of his game such as head movement, multi punch combinations etc are remembered as being better than that actually were.

To respond precisely to the question, I pose one of my own - do you prefer the gallows or the electric chair?! Depends how you like being broken apart. The Tyson of 86-90 didn't actually go in for much in the way of scowling, threatening to eat babies or tearing people's hearts out. He was all business, accentuated by the no dressing gown and socks ring entrance, and just looked to get people out of there as quickly as possible. Liston had an almost zombie-like persona of doom about him in the late 50s and early 60s. He terrified opponents. That goes for Ali as well, who, legend has it, resorted to the crazy man schtick only as an antidote to the genuine apprehension that Sonny caused in him ("whistling past the graveyard", as I think someone described it).

Consequently, while it's not much of a choice, I'll go for the quick and (relatively) painless exit at the hands of Tyson, rather than the pain plus extra dread created by the automaton-like persona of Liston.

As for the fight, Liston is all wrong for Tyson. Unless Mike can get him out of there early, and I mean in the first round, Sonny pulverises him with that jab and fearsome cross. Liston inside four is my call. I should add that I'd still rank Tyson two or three spots ahead of Liston on my all-time heavyweight list.

I'd have to go for Tyson, too, as he would set about knocking you into oblivion quicker, in my opinion, and wouldn't have the 'it's coming but you don't know when' stare that Liston would have provided.

Head to head - Liston inside 7 after a few rocky moments early on he would control Mike with the piston-like jab before breaking his heart and ending it with Mike slumped in a corner.

aja424 wrote:All the people who I know who have a boxing background( have actually boxed) all seem pretty much seem to agree that tyson could have been the best EVER. However he didnt have the self discipline to train like a true champ and got wacked by douglas.
Very interesting to see that people who spend far too much time critisising boxers (with zero ring experience themselves) come to the same conclusion that tyson was merely a myth, and anyone who thinks otherwise(mainly ex boxers) dont know what they are on with.

Tyson polarises opinion like no other because he has attracted an unprecedented amount of frankly unknowledgeable fanboys (not mainly ex-boxers) who come on boxing forums claiming that 'prime' tyson would have knocked out any heavy in history in the first round... and have a list of excuses for his defeats when they came. Half these people haven't even heard of Ali. That often gets peoples backs up and leads to heated counter arguments. I'd say most of the more knowledgeable posters on here have a fairly balanced view on tyson and most rate him highly whilst recognising his flaws. The boxing world is full of people who could have been the greatest ever... tyson certainly had plenty of the attributes necessary, as do a number of others.

Some of the guys on here are old enough to remember Sonny Liston too though, wheras some like you and me have only 2nd hand experience of it . Its not disparaging to tyson for someone to pick him as one of the two most intimidating heavies in history. Afterall, there is a reason why you're considered intimidating.

Also, they say jockies make the worst tipsters, just because someone has boxed it doesn't automatically make them a better judge of a fighter than someone who hasn't... and don't assume everyone on here hasn't boxed - or you might just get truss' ring record thrust in your face.

milkyboy wrote:Tyson polarises opinion like no other because he has attracted an unprecedented amount of frankly unknowledgeable fanboys (not mainly ex-boxers) who come on boxing forums claiming that 'prime' tyson would have knocked out any heavy in history in the first round... and have a list of excuses for his defeats when they came. Half these people haven't even heard of Ali. That often gets peoples backs up and leads to heated counter arguments. I'd say most of the more knowledgeable posters on here have a fairly balanced view on tyson and most rate him highly whilst recognising his flaws. The boxing world is full of people who could have been the greatest ever... tyson certainly had plenty of the attributes necessary, as do a number of others.

Some of the guys on here are old enough to remember Sonny Liston too though, wheras some like you and me have only 2nd hand experience of it . Its not disparaging to tyson for someone to pick him as one of the two most intimidating heavies in history. Afterall, there is a reason why you're considered intimidating.

Also, they say jockies make the worst tipsters, just because someone has boxed it doesn't automatically make them a better judge of a fighter than someone who hasn't... and don't assume everyone on here hasn't boxed - or you might just get truss' ring record thrust in your face.

I think that's pretty much a myth. The only one I can think of was a clear WUM, Tysonking.

There are more people who claim that Tyson was a bum who would be knocked out by anyone who wasn't scared.

It's become fashionable and a sign of 'knowledge' to write him off completely.

Don't completely agree there, Scott. Tysonking wasn't the only person on these boards who was totally unwilling to accept that Tyson at his peak could have beaten by anyone who ever lived, although I have mercifully forgotten the names of some of the others of his ilk.

What's more, one still meets a lot of people who have a passing interest in the sport who believe this about Tyson, which they do about no other boxer; not Ali, Hagler, or any other fighter of whom they might have heard. For sure, absurd revisionism rears its ugly head from time to time, and a few ridiculous people decry Tyson as a myth and a fraud, but they seem to me to be very much the minority. The myth of Tyson the invincible monster has survived intact, more than two decades after it was first exposed as a hollow one.

One hopes that a fair and balanced assessment will become the norm, but I don't think that it will happen quickly, unfortunately.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Don't completely agree there, Scott. Tysonking wasn't the only person on these boards who was totally unwilling to accept that Tyson at his peak could have beaten by anyone who ever lived, although I have mercifully forgotten the names of some of the others of his ilk.

What's more, one still meets a lot of people who have a passing interest in the sport who believe this about Tyson, which they do about no other boxer; not Ali, Hagler, or any other fighter of whom they might have heard. For sure, absurd revisionism rears its ugly head from time to time, and a few ridiculous people decry Tyson as a myth and a fraud, but they seem to me to be very much the minority. The myth of Tyson the invincible monster has survived intact, more than two decades after it was first exposed as a hollow one.

One hopes that a fair and balanced assessment will become the norm, but I don't think that it will happen quickly, unfortunately.

I think it's the opposite on this forum, which is where we should surely base it. Of the sensible posters, or ones that actually frequented the boards, I can't think of a single one who had that opinion on Tyson. It was always the guys with multiple aliases.

The man on the street isn't particularly relevant, I don't attempt to discuss boxing with him.