Europro tour bans belly putters

This was mentioned last night during the Solheim Cup coverage. The announcement mentions belly putters, one can only assume this also includes broomhandles.

Interesting, I know there has been talk for years about unfair advantage etc but to date, there has been no ban imposed. I wonder if this is the tip of the iceberg or a unilateral decision.

http://geckoeuroprotour.com/latest-rules-update/

Only belly putters D4S.

Any professional tour can do whatever the hell it pleases but, up to now, expediency has driven their stance on such matters.

As a , by the way, I wonder what this tour thinks about putters anchored at chest level?

Why can professional tours do what they please?

The players still have to abide by the RoG, so I don't understand why the Eurotour have effectively changed the Rules.

Can I point out this isn't actually "The" Europro Tour (as in the one that gives places onto the Challenge tour and features people such as Zane Scotland) or is that spoiling the fun?

Big big surprise for me this.
It's only in Spain though right?

Good. The sooner they're banned (along with the broom handle putters) across the board, the better.

Personally, I've never really understood what all the fuss is about. If someone is struggling with their putting and resorts to one of these then fair play to them. I find them completely unwieldy and even harder to control than a standard flatstick.

Everybody has the option to use one should they so choose so nobody is gaining any unfair advantage.

Can't see point in europro doing this, it isn't cheating it's within the rules of golf and look at how many players actually use them compared to number of winners world wide! Pointless and any am's getting all high and mighty about it is even more laughable as you will be hard pushed to find a club golfer using one!

Maverick wrote:...any am's getting all high and mighty about it is even more laughable as you will be hard pushed to find a club golfer using one!

High and mighty? Hardly. A few at our place use them but you can bet your proverbial bottom dollar that if they become the norm in the pro game, sales in the amateur/club game will sky rocket. Their use fundamentally changes what the game is about i.e. holding a club in your hands and swinging it to move a golf ball the way you want. Anchoring a belly putter (or broomhandle) on some part of the body as a pivot point demotes the shoulders from a stroke. Sorry but if they can't putt well enough with a standard putter, tough luck.

There are two issues here. Firstly, is anchoring a putter within the spirit of the game and secondly, does it offer an advantage over free-swinging?

On the first point, of course it isn't. On the second point, however, the issue is not so clear. Given there are already pros who have dabbled back and forth between anchored and free-swinging putters, it's difficult not to conclude that, at the very least, the jury is still out on this one.

However, one thing is clear; the governing bodies have got to stop farfing around on this and make some kind of pronouncement even if it is just to say that the issue is being monitored. If they don't then, frankly, a point will be reached in the not to distant future when they won't have that option available to them because belly putters are about to be mass produced as youngsters coming into the game are learning to putt with belly putters and not bothering with the free-swing variety.

gael
Could not agree more, back in the 50s they were not long in deciding the that mallet type putting with the putter between legs was not legal.

Having made such decisions, then the decision on putters anchored to the body should be much easier, like you undecided one way or another, but for god sake any decision is better than none

High and mighty not at all its my opinion and I'm sticking to it. The percentage of club golfers using longer putters will remain low until it can be proved one way or another there is/is not an advantage. Try using a longer putter its not as easy as you think.

Maverick wrote:High and mighty not at all its my opinion and I'm sticking to it. The percentage of club golfers using longer putters will remain low until it can be proved one way or another there is/is not an advantage. Try using a longer putter its not as easy as you think.

Good for you . Had a giggle at the idea that typical club players actually need proof that something is good for their game before going on a spending spree though. A lot of the OEMs would be struggling if that were the case I think.

Don't see the problem myself, what will they ban next? Hybrids?

The other side of the coin is, belly putters are not just a quick fix and no guarantee to improving yor game, in fact their hard to adjust to. So if any Am's want to buy one as the instant fix they want then they are sorely mistaken.

As for banning them rally cannot see why, despite all the argument about it supposedly being cheating or making the game easier, load of rubbish

JPX wrote:Don't see the problem myself, what will they ban next? Hybrids?

I don't suppose they'll ban hybrids but you're missing the point in that there have to be equipment rules with boundaries. If a continual chipping away of where the actual boundary occurs, where do you end up?

Mav

They're a fundamental departure from how a club is swung. Maybe putting croquet-style was OK then?

navyblueshorts wrote:

JPX wrote:Don't see the problem myself, what will they ban next? Hybrids?

I don't suppose they'll ban hybrids but you're missing the point in that there have to be equipment rules with boundaries. If a continual chipping away of where the actual boundary occurs, where do you end up?

Mav

They're a fundamental departure from how a club is swung. Maybe putting croquet-style was OK then?

Why because it's anchored to the body. Still don't buy it and still does not guarantee that it will improve your game. As for croquet style they outlawed that and side saddle years ago so a non issue that one

Maverick wrote:...As for croquet style they outlawed that and side saddle years ago so a non issue that one

That's the point. They outlawed it. Ergo, they can easily outlaw belly/broom handle putters etc. We obviously won't agree on this one!

Yes they can outlaw it but for what reason thats my point, they are saying it's because it's easier but thats not been proven!

Maverick wrote:Yes they can outlaw it but for what reason thats my point, they are saying it's because it's easier but thats not been proven!

What he said.

I've never heard anyone come up with a compelling fact/statement/other as proof that Belly/Broomhandled putters actually improve someones game. All I've heard are Commentators/analysts bemoaning the fact that they are brute ugly (which id agree with) and not within the spirit of the game due to being anchored. If it improved your game so much [1] the vast majority of touring pro's would have one in the bag [2] the manufacturers would be going on "mass production" overdrive to get them out to the gullable masses as a quick-fix. Theres no-one that I can think of that I believe is better with one.

Plus, how long have they actually been used for? The first time I remember seeing a belly putter used was Monty in the Ryder Cup circa 95/97, little bit late in the day now to expect the Rule book to be changed.

Is it any different from having an exceptionally short putter? I once played a round with a guy who had a putter that was no more than 24" long.
Did he have an advantage? I don't think so, it was just what was comfortable for him, but it didn't necessarily make him a better putter.

If there was any proof that a specific type of putter made you hole more putts, we'd all use them, truth is, it's horses for courses.

super_realist wrote:Is it any different from having an exceptionally short putter? I once played a round with a guy who had a putter that was no more than 24" long.
Did he have an advantage? I don't think so, it was just what was comfortable for him, but it didn't necessarily make him a better putter.

If there was any proof that a specific type of putter made you hole more putts, we'd all use them, truth is, it's horses for courses.

My point exactly

Your ability to be a good putter is governed not by the style of putter you use, but how you read the break/line, and how you apply pace and distance to that line.
Like every other club, there is no magic bullet which makes you better, just what is more comfortable in your hand.

You can't simply have a free-for-all with equipment design, whether or not there's evidence something will improve a players game or not. The equipment wallas are spineless and/or scared of the cries of 'restraint of trade!' from the OEMs.

Proof? The fact that all the rudey poo putters are using them will do for me. The reason they're getting away with it is I guess there's nothing explicit to rule them out but hopefully that'll change.

These putters, particularly the broom handles, remove/reduce the shoulders in a stroke and, as such, are fundamentally different from, say, the advent of hybrids or 60° wedges. There'll always be innovation but as things stand the rules people are so disgracefully off the pace you get situations like this.

Gareth_NI wrote:...Plus, how long have they actually been used for? The first time I remember seeing a belly putter used was Monty in the Ryder Cup circa 95/97, little bit late in the day now to expect the Rule book to be changed.

Need some precedent? How about the recent amendment to the groove rules? Or 0.83 CoR maximum for drivers? Or croquet putting styles? Etc.

navyblueshorts wrote:Proof? The fact that all the rudey poo putters are using them will do for me. The reason they're getting away with it is I guess there's nothing explicit to rule them out but hopefully that'll change.

These putters, particularly the broom handles, remove/reduce the shoulders in a stroke and, as such, are fundamentally different from, say, the advent of hybrids or 60° wedges. There'll always be innovation but as things stand the rules people are so disgracefully off the pace you get situations like this.

Need some precedent? How about the recent amendment to the groove rules? Or 0.83 CoR maximum for drivers? Or croquet putting styles? Etc.

Of the so called "Rudey Poo Putters", whom has performed drastically better due to the change? As I've mentioned earlier I can't think of anyone whom I would say fills me with more confidence that they will hole a putt or get down in two for a biggie. Garcia for example has tried every type of putter and grip, yet hes still no better. Maybe the "claw" grip will also be banned?

I won't loose any sleep whether they are banned or not, I couldn't care, just like I wouldn't care if a playing partner/opponent carried one. I'm just sick of the so-called experts/"has beens" jumping on the they should be banned bandwagon.

With respect to your mentioned precedent(s)Grooves/CoR, is that not slightly different due to the fact that there was proof of a definite unfair advantage, eg: with grooves much more control? Something which I don't see with both type of putter.

Hibbz wrote:Can I point out this isn't actually "The" Europro Tour (as in the one that gives places onto the Challenge tour and features people such as Zane Scotland) or is that spoiling the fun?

Shame no one seemed to register this point Hibbz!

Seems to me like a publicity stunt for a two-bit tour, which is clearly pretty shameless given that it's (successfully) trying to use the public awareness of another tour's name. We can discuss long putters all we want, but this isn't any nearer to them being banned. Come back when a real tour bans them.


Btw, does anyone know if the stat is still correct that there's been no winners on the ET with a long putter this year? Presumably excludes the Majors and WGCs, but still surprising. Could be coincidence, or could be another gap between Europe and the US.

Ned, I think the reason is that if you resort to using the longer putter, it inherently means you are struggling with your standard putter.
No one who is putting well will choose a long putter.
I don't think a long putter (or a shorter) one will make you a better putter I think it might just make you more comfortable and confident over the ball. No way will hit help you hole more then if you are putting well with any other style of putter. Putting is about reading breaks and getting pace right, not what you have in your hands.

Excluding Majors and WGC's there has been no long putter win on the ET this season.

Even if you include the majors, the only long putter win was Braddely and he is american

Has Adam Scott become a better putter since using the long putter? He must have!

MustPuttBetter wrote:Has Adam Scott become a better putter since using the long putter? He must have!

I don't agree, he has been using the longer putter since the WGC Matchplay this year (Feb), and he has recorded 1 win. Since 2001 he has won 15 tournaments across both European an US/PGA tours, which is an average of 1.5 per season. Thats not including additional won tournaments on Asia/Australasia/Sunshine tours. Hardly a glowing reference that a broomhandled putter improves ones game, significantly or other.

Gareth, so you don't think Adam Scott has just had his best year for quite soime time?

Nobody becomes a better putter simply because they have changed their putter.

Can nobody understand that it isn't the stroke of a putt which is the skill, but reading and imparting the right line, pace to take the line and distance to get to the hole.

If you were comfortable with half a house brick screwed onto a broom handle you could putt well if you were confident with it.

Anyone can putt, and no putter will make you better at it if you can't read and execute the putt.

MustPuttBetter wrote:Gareth, so you don't think Adam Scott has just had his best year for quite soime time?

For someone of his undoubted ability/talent as per most years it was pretty average. Other than his (...or Stevie Williams' ) WGC win and performance at the Masters he didn't particularly catch the eye.

Reading the line and pace is a huge part of it but quite clearly a good stroke helps too. It is quite conceivable that some players may find it more comfortable/natural to make a good stroke with a longer or shorted putter in their hands.
So it's perfectly reasonable to assume that changing to a long putter will improve some players' putting

MPB, what I'm saying is that no putter will help you read the line and get the pace right. If you can't do that then it doesn't matter what putter you play with.
People who use longer putters do so because they've struggled with standard putters. You wouldn't see a Faxon or Davis Love use a long putter because they can putt. If long putters gave such an advantage then the best putters on tour would use them, except they don't do they?

Scott has always been way down the putting stats, this year being no exeption, a long putter doesn't give him an advantage over anyone else, it merely helps his stroke, tempo, being square at impact, being comfortable etc. It doesn't put the ball in the hole without a correct read and pace.

Gareth, so other than all his achievements this year wasn't particularly eye catching?? True i guess!
I'd say having had his highest major finish, first WGC win and re-entry to the top 10 for 2 years, this is a pretty good year for Adam. I'd be very surprised if an improvement in putting wasn't part of that.
I will try and look out some stats later

SR, i completely agree. No putter will help with reading line or pace. But there are surely plenty of players who can read pace and line but can't execute it, and maybe the longer putter helps them.

I'm not saying that a long putter improves everyone so there is no need for those already good at putting to change to a longer one. But it clearly makes some players better putters than they otherwise would be and that's an advantage to them. Just because it doesn't make him better than everyone doesn't mean it's not an advantage. It clearly gives him an advantage over those who would be better than him if using an ordinary putter.

If i do the 100 metres in 12 seconds but with rollerskates i can do it in 11 seconds, i'm still slower than the best sprinters but i obviously have an advantage don't i??

If finding a putter that suits them helps them execute a better stroke then so what?
There is custom fitting in all aspects of the game, putting is the most important element so it makes sense to have something that fits the player. I don't see the big deal.
Long putters are within the rules, and if they offered an unfair advantage would be banned.
Like someone has said, tournaments are not being won more by players with long putters.

I put a better stroke on a putt if I grip down a bit than if I grip at the top of the grip, should I be banned from gripping further down because it helps my stroke?

I don't actually have a problem with people being able to use long putters. None at all.

I just didn't agree with the notion that they can't make people better putters. Fair play to those who use them if it helps. I'm thinking I might try it. My putting is awful!!

MPB, I don't think any clubs can make any player better. The only thing which improves your game is practice, while changes in your mental approach can help your scoring.

Fitted clubs don't actually improve you technically, they just make your bad shots less bad.
I suppose you could loosely interpret that as improving your game, but it's almost imperceptible and has more to do with confidence that improving your putting stats.

I don't disagree with that SR.
But however you look at it, whether using a long putter is a mental thing that improves putting or a way of making the bad putts less bad, it's still helping to improve performance. Otherwise they surely wouldn't get used.

I'm not saying long putters improve everyone full stop. But quite clearly in individual cases they make certain players better putters therefore better players.

Would YE Tang be as good a player without using the hybrids he does? Probably not. He still has to swing them! But they help him. Same with putters

True MPB, but I don't think there is any evidence that the use of a long putter makes the user any better than the user of a conventional putter, that is to say that there is no competitive or performance advantage to be had. Everyone is free to use them. Not everyone can hit a 1 iron, but those who can have the advantage of being able to hit a low drilling shot into the wind, isn't this an advantage over the person that a 1 iron doesn't suit? It isn't the fault of the 1 iron striker that other people can't use it, so should it be banned?
There is clearly no distinct advantage to using either type and which type of putter you use is horses for courses.

All I'm saying is if I use a long putter better than a normal putter and it makes me a better player, that's clearly an advantage to me. I'm a better player than a few others who I otherwise wouldn't be better than.

However I agree that everyone is free to use them and I accept the 1 iron point. Which is why I'm not saying they should be banned. I've no problem with them

In fact to be honest watching different types of putting makes the coverage a little easier on the eye I find. Tv coverage is often putt after putt after putt and at least there's a little variation with the different putters and styles etc

Gareth_NI wrote:...I won't loose any sleep whether they are banned or not, I couldn't care, just like I wouldn't care if a playing partner/opponent carried one. I'm just sick of the so-called experts/"has beens" jumping on the they should be banned bandwagon...

Shame. I thought this sort of forum catered for all sorts of opinions from any part of the spectrum.

super_realist wrote:...Like someone has said, tournaments are not being won more by players with long putters.

Hardly a valid point as that's simply a numbers game. Oh, and of course you're right re. reading of the line, pace etc but it's disingenuous to suggest that a bit of equipment that helps you to make a better stroke in a fundamentally different way isn't an aid to better putting.

Personally, I couldn't care less if these putters are actually proven, eventually, to make you putt worse than a standard type of putter. The fact they're anchored against some part of the body, for me, makes them fundamentally different and therefore they should be outlawed.

Put it this way, you are in a matchplay final of the club championship, it's the final green and you're all square.
Both of you put a wedge shot into exactly the same distance on a perfectly flat green.
You have a standard putter, your opponent has a long putter or belly putter.
Would you be thinking that your opponent has a competitive advantage because of his putter and consequently a greater chance of holing the putt?

I certainly wouldn't, in fact i'd fancy myself to hole the putt and for him to miss because the likely reason he's using it in the first place is because he's a poor putter.

Agreed

But would you fancy your chances even more of getting down in less than him if he was holding an ordinary putter and you knew he was terrible with that rather than average with a long one? Yes. He therefore has an advantage.

That said the long putter is available to everyone so whilst it has given him an advantage, it's not an unfair one

navyblueshorts wrote:I thought this sort of forum catered for all sorts of opinions from any part of the spectrum

NBS, that comment wasn't aimed at anyone on this board, more so commentators/analysts (Roe/Lee et al), I have been respectful to others opinions. Whilst I feel mine is equally valid.

They should have banned the broom sticks when they first came out, would think its a bit late now to do so, they might look at the handles on them, and make them one piece, so they can say they conform.

They did the same thing with drivers, to slow and to late to react, over the trampoline effect on them, so manufactures went into full production and it then took years to have them banned.

There seems to be some belief that change (or progress if you aren't a dinosaur) is bad for the game. Not one of us finds the game too easy with past, current or future technology, therefore we don't need to be restricted or undergo retrospective changes for the sake of rose tinted sentiment.
Every other sport benefits from technology, most a lot more than we do as golfers, and I think we have the balance about right with the restrictions we already have in place. We don't need it any easier, but we dont necessarily want the game to be any harder either.