Does Massa have a point?

Today wasn't the first time Massa and Hamilton have been involved in incidents, there was obviously what happened in qualifying and the previous one in Monaco which lead to Massa's retirement. There has also been the end of the Silverstone race.

There have been plenty of minor incidents, but is it Massa over-reacting or is he right?

"My thoughts are that, again, he cannot use his mind - even in qualifying. He has done it to me so many times this year. Again, he could've caused a big accident. He's paying for it and he doesn't understand that. It's important the FIA study this and penalise him every time."

Bonjourno!

I think that Hamilton is cracking in the pressure his team mate has placed him under. Massa tapped Hamilton on the shoulder after the race to get some answers and all he gets is "Dont touch me man!" Absolutely Pathetic. He does not say sorry, no nothing.

He was rude and aggressive, just like his racing style. He has lost the plot and I agree with F1 legend Lauda and Mansell that Hamilton must change.

Forza Alonso!

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:Bonjourno!

I think that Hamilton is cracking in the pressure his team mate has placed him under. Massa tapped Hamilton on the shoulder after the race to get some answers and all he gets is "Dont touch me man!" Absolutely Pathetic. He does not say sorry, no nothing.

He was rude and aggressive, just like his racing style. He has lost the plot and I agree with F1 legend Lauda and Mansell that Hamilton must change.

Forza Alonso!

Your post above clearly shows why nobody takes you seriously. The post is a blatant lie. Massa pounded Hamilton on the shoulder and sarcastically said good job man and Hamilton was having none of it. It's funny, Felipe is acting all tough now, where was his toughness at Hockenheim last year? Massa caused an incident last year at Singapore with Hamilton, Hamilton had to take evasive action and destroyed a camera. He compromised Hamilton's flying lap in Monaco this season by deliberately moving onto the racing line and turned into Hamilton at Monaco. He was also involved in an incident with Hamilton at Monza last year. There's definitely some bad blood between both drivers especially as Hamilton took away Felipe's chance to be a world champion.

Incidents like yesterday happen all the time and drivers get into arguments all the time, even at Redbull. Felipe is a broken man and can't take his frustrations out on his team mate or team and is trying to take them out on Hamilton.

I just wish he displayed the same courage against his team mate.

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:Bonjourno!

I think that Hamilton is cracking in the pressure his team mate has placed him under. Massa tapped Hamilton on the shoulder after the race to get some answers and all he gets is "Dont touch me man!" Absolutely Pathetic. He does not say sorry, no nothing.

He was rude and aggressive, just like his racing style. He has lost the plot and I agree with F1 legend Lauda and Mansell that Hamilton must change.

Forza Alonso!

You seem to think Hamilton was being rude and aggressive, yet you make no mention of Massa's push and sarcastic comments whilst Hamilton is being interviewed. I think you'll find that it was Massa being rude and aggressive!

Felipe is finished in F1 and he knows it.

Thats what playing second fiddle at Ferrari does to you. Rumour has it that Jenson COULD POSSIBLY join there in 2013 - i say he should go for it.

There's no way jenson will go to ferrari and play second fiddle to fernando. Jenson cant believe his luck at the moment. He's racing in a era of f1 which suits all his driving styles and handcuffs pure racing drivers. Lewis is fighting demons at the moment and is completely out of luck and is under huge media scrutiny. Jenson leads Hamilton by 17 points and some people including many delusional pundits actually think he's team leader. He would never leave the British team, while enjoying so much success over Hamilton and the adjulation of the british fans. If mclaren actually provide a car for Lewis, then he will show Jenson what a true racer is capable of. Lewis would easily out-qualify Jenson and would lead from the front like Vettel has done all year. In clean air, no1 catches Hamilton. I personally hope Felipe leaves and they bring in Kubica to Ferrari

Hamilton was totally in the wrong and the drive through "penalty" didn't really effect him.

Having said that Massa to Renault seams ever more likely

Gregers wrote:Hamilton was totally in the wrong and the drive through "penalty" didn't really effect him.

Having said that Massa to Renault seams ever more likely

What? Basically Hamilton was faster than Button, Alonso, Webber & Massa in the first stint. After passing Rosberg/Schumacher he closed the gap between himself and them with ease, it was like he was chasing down backmarkers. This just shows why Hamilton needs a car that can challenge Vettel so we can actually see some competition. The Button group were so slow they basically just gave up on catching Vettel without a fight. Add to the fact Alonso's tyres had then completely gone off the cliff just showed you how fast Hamilton was driving in that first stint whilst saving his tyres. In my opinion Hamilton could of easily achieved 2nd yesterday, so to say the penalty never affected him is ludicrous

onlytreblewinners wrote:Today wasn't the first time Massa and Hamilton have been involved in incidents, there was obviously what happened in qualifying and the previous one in Monaco which lead to Massa's retirement. There has also been the end of the Silverstone race.

There have been plenty of minor incidents, but is it Massa over-reacting or is he right?

"My thoughts are that, again, he cannot use his mind - even in qualifying. He has done it to me so many times this year. Again, he could've caused a big accident. He's paying for it and he doesn't understand that. It's important the FIA study this and penalise him every time."

Its unfortunate, but I don't blame Massa for his reaction. Its uncanny how many times he and Hamilton are getting into scrapes. Monza last year. Monaco, Silverstone and Singapore this year. I think I'd be getting more than a tad fed up if I were Felipe. He's also right that these incidents are hurting Lewis' title chances.

I was actually quite surprised how philosophical Stefano Domenicali was about it, but then I guess Alonso is the team's main priority.

In summary, no I don't think it was an over-reaction (though I think he should have kept his distance while Lewis was doing interviews). It was probably the culmination of months of frustration over a series of incidents. This particular collision was really a bit of a "nothing" incident in as much as it wasn't especially stupid or dangerous - just a misjudgement on Hamilton's part, more than anything, but I can completely understand why Massa felt the way he did.

onlytreblewinners wrote:previous one in Monaco which lead to Massa's retirement. There has also been the end of the Silverstone race.

Massa crashing in the tunnel at Monaco wasnt Lewis fault... Lewis and Massa touched at turn 6, Massa crashed after Turn 8 because he drove on the marbles... Silverstone Massa tried to close the down the gap after he left it opened but it was too late... Lewis had already stuck his nose through...

dyrewolfe wrote:

onlytreblewinners wrote:Today wasn't the first time Massa and Hamilton have been involved in incidents, there was obviously what happened in qualifying and the previous one in Monaco which lead to Massa's retirement. There has also been the end of the Silverstone race.

There have been plenty of minor incidents, but is it Massa over-reacting or is he right?

"My thoughts are that, again, he cannot use his mind - even in qualifying. He has done it to me so many times this year. Again, he could've caused a big accident. He's paying for it and he doesn't understand that. It's important the FIA study this and penalise him every time."

Its unfortunate, but I don't blame Massa for his reaction. Its uncanny how many times he and Hamilton are getting into scrapes. Monza last year. Monaco, Silverstone and Singapore this year. I think I'd be getting more than a tad fed up if I were Felipe. He's also right that these incidents are hurting Lewis' title chances.

I was actually quite surprised how philosophical Stefano Domenicali was about it, but then I guess Alonso is the team's main priority.

In summary, no I don't think it was an over-reaction (though I think he should have kept his distance while Lewis was doing interviews). It was probably the culmination of months of frustration over a series of incidents. This particular collision was really a bit of a "nothing" incident in as much as it wasn't especially stupid or dangerous - just a misjudgement on Hamilton's part, more than anything, but I can completely understand why Massa felt the way he did.

i sometimes think Massa looks for excuses for his own performances. Not taking away the fact Hamilton can be blamed for some of them, just feel Massa is trying to put all his bad performances on Hamilton.

Alright, will chuck in my two cents.

I personally think Hamilton intimidates Massa and therefore thinks he can have his way with the overtakes etc. But this weekend he cracked and decided to stand up to him, about time IMO.

Now I may not contribute very much to the forums but I am sick to death of everyone defending Lewis and slating jenson.

I am a supporter of the mclaren team and hope that one day they will topple the mighty force of redbull but here's my two cents:

Lewis is driving extremely erratically this season and has been for the whole season, I have to agree with the stewards penalising him because one day he could cause a serious accident. I have no doubt in my mind that Lewis is better than this and will improve but he must take the stewards penalties as a learning curve.

On the other hand there is no reason why he can't learn from this because guess who has made the most overtakes this season? Yes Jenson has and although there is DRS, if you look at races such as spa and monza, you will see that the moves he made were aggressive, very professional and indeed fair. Full credit to Jenson who would be much further clear of the rest (excluding vettel of course) if it wasn't for a mechanical problem in Germany and a botched pitstop at silverstone.

In conclusion to my post I'd like to summarise that Lewis has caused his own downfall this season whereas Jenson has rightfully earned to be the number one driver at mclaren this season, his driving has been skilful and but for a couple of unfortunate issues that weren't his fault, he would be much further infront in 2nd place, taking the championship to at least 2 more races. Jenson has what he deserves and sorry to say it but so does Lewis.

You're right you dont post on here that much. Do you read the threads, then you'll see Lewis has had his fair share of being slagged off, i wouldnt say one has been slagged off more than the other... so lets leave it at that ey.

I respect your opinion, but to say you're tired of button being slagged off and lewis not is absurb.

Lewis has got what he's deserved??? wtf

Lewis has beaten Jenson every season bar this one..... so far! its not over yet. So lets not jump the gun yeah.

As for the Jenson has made the most overtakes.... well read the forum and you'll see someone has rightfully pointed out that Jenson has started further back then alot of the front runners so of course he's made the most over takes. Vettel has been in the lead most, but Jenson has over taken more cars then him... so what does the overtake fact mean.... NOTHING. Jensons qualifying performance has meant he's started further back and had to overtake more cars. You cant overtake cars that arent in front of you. So please stop using that fact as its laughable.

Jenson has done well this season, but i doubt he'd be 2nd in the wdc had alonso, lewis and webber being more on form and had equal cars (webber) and had fair decisions made against them (lewis). Although he has done quite well, he's really cashed in on other "misfortune"

I dont think one season where button has beaten lewis makes him the no.1 driver. What you would be saying is all the seasons lewis has beaten jenson counts for nothing, but 1 good/better season for Jenson means he gets the first seat - i dont think so.

I do agree though,Lewis is indeed better than this and with any luck it will make him stronger. We'll have to see next season. Lewis has had some appalling decisions made against him this season, i just hope it doesnt continue in next season.

critical_mass i'm glad your on this forum because the majority of posts on here just stink of a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of anything that's unfolded this season.

Thank you John. Not sure how much sense that post makes - been on the brandy lol.

harryspiv wrote:Now I may not contribute very much to the forums but I am sick to death of everyone defending Lewis and slating jenson.

I am a supporter of the mclaren team and hope that one day they will topple the mighty force of redbull but here's my two cents:

Lewis is driving extremely erratically this season and has been for the whole season, I have to agree with the stewards penalising him because one day he could cause a serious accident. I have no doubt in my mind that Lewis is better than this and will improve but he must take the stewards penalties as a learning curve.

On the other hand there is no reason why he can't learn from this because guess who has made the most overtakes this season? Yes Jenson has and although there is DRS, if you look at races such as spa and monza, you will see that the moves he made were aggressive, very professional and indeed fair. Full credit to Jenson who would be much further clear of the rest (excluding vettel of course) if it wasn't for a mechanical problem in Germany and a botched pitstop at silverstone.

In conclusion to my post I'd like to summarise that Lewis has caused his own downfall this season whereas Jenson has rightfully earned to be the number one driver at mclaren this season, his driving has been skilful and but for a couple of unfortunate issues that weren't his fault, he would be much further infront in 2nd place, taking the championship to at least 2 more races. Jenson has what he deserves and sorry to say it but so does Lewis.

Very good post harry, not something you see often

Critical_mass wrote:

Lewis has beaten Jenson every season bar this one..... so far! its not over yet. So lets not jump the gun yeah.

Did i just imagine Button won the 2009 WDC with Hamilton in the field or does that not count because Lewis didn't have one of the best cars for the only season in his career. As for 2007 and 2008 Hamilton had the best car on the grid to the dreadful Honda's who were about 2 seconds off the pace. So the only meaningful comparison which can be made is last season when Hamilton edged Button in the standings, similar to what Button has done to Hamilton this season which would make it pretty even like it or not.

I think you'll find button only was better in the first half of the season and it was lewis who was more dominant in the second half of the season. So LIKE IT OR NOT, Jensons WDC season wasnt that convincing. He'd simply made the most of having the best car on the grid for hte first part of the 2009 season.

This season however, Jenson has only got ahead of lewis due to poor decisions by the stewards.

Critical_mass wrote:I think you'll find button only was better in the first half of the season and it was lewis who was more dominant in the second half of the season. So LIKE IT OR NOT, Jensons WDC season wasnt that convincing. He'd simply made the most of having the best car on the grid for hte first part of the 2009 season.

This season however, Jenson has only got ahead of lewis due to poor decisions by the stewards.

You gotta be kidding me? he had it sewn up with two races to go, the hypocrisy when Hamilton only won his championship on the last lap of the last race. Fact is Button was way ahead in 2009, down to the car, just like Hamilton was when Button drove those dreadful Honda's in the two previous seasons. Your last comment makes you look ignorant, if he stopped crashing and putting himself in bad positions he wouldn't be in trouble with the stewards all the time, Button has outraced him consistently recently; even though he doesn't have Hamilton's ultimate speed, he's certainly not a mile away. It's Button who's been unlucky this season, he's the one who's been robbed of results through no fault of his own, ie mechanical troubles.

monty junior wrote:

Critical_mass wrote:I think you'll find button only was better in the first half of the season and it was lewis who was more dominant in the second half of the season. So LIKE IT OR NOT, Jensons WDC season wasnt that convincing. He'd simply made the most of having the best car on the grid for hte first part of the 2009 season.

This season however, Jenson has only got ahead of lewis due to poor decisions by the stewards.

You gotta be kidding me? he had it sewn up with two races to go, the hypocrisy when Hamilton only won his championship on the last lap of the last race. Fact is Button was way ahead in 2009, down to the car, just like Hamilton was when Button drove those dreadful Honda's in the two previous seasons. Your last comment makes you look ignorant, if he stopped crashing and putting himself in bad positions he wouldn't be in trouble with the stewards all the time, Button has outraced him consistently recently; even though he doesn't have Hamilton's ultimate speed, he's certainly not a mile away. It's Button who's been unlucky this season, he's the one who's been robbed of results through no fault of his own, ie mechanical troubles.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!???? Lewis battle tooth and nail ALL season to claim his WDC. Button didnt have any competition until the last part of the season, then he fell apart. THough he'd done enoguh to claim it. Youre ignorant of ignoring that. i havent lied, thats how it happened. Lewis, Massa and Raikkonnen battled all season in 2008, Lewis was lucky on the last lap, but he was there all along to mkaet he luck work in his favour.

Button had no competition in the 2009 season for the first half, he also had the best car. Lewis when he won the wdc in 2008 had the ferraris battling with him all season.

Button has not been unlucky this season, he's not had that many DNFs. He has NOT been "robbed", these things happen in F1.

You look ignorant.

Lewis has had a few knocks this season. He's been punished for them, been punished for them when others have got away with having the same inicident - schumacher for example.

Critical_mass wrote:

monty junior wrote:

Critical_mass wrote:I think you'll find button only was better in the first half of the season and it was lewis who was more dominant in the second half of the season. So LIKE IT OR NOT, Jensons WDC season wasnt that convincing. He'd simply made the most of having the best car on the grid for hte first part of the 2009 season.

This season however, Jenson has only got ahead of lewis due to poor decisions by the stewards.

You gotta be kidding me? he had it sewn up with two races to go, the hypocrisy when Hamilton only won his championship on the last lap of the last race. Fact is Button was way ahead in 2009, down to the car, just like Hamilton was when Button drove those dreadful Honda's in the two previous seasons. Your last comment makes you look ignorant, if he stopped crashing and putting himself in bad positions he wouldn't be in trouble with the stewards all the time, Button has outraced him consistently recently; even though he doesn't have Hamilton's ultimate speed, he's certainly not a mile away. It's Button who's been unlucky this season, he's the one who's been robbed of results through no fault of his own, ie mechanical troubles.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!???? Lewis battle tooth and nail ALL season to claim his WDC. Button didnt have any competition until the last part of the season, then he fell apart. THough he'd done enoguh to claim it. Youre ignorant of ignoring that. i havent lied, thats how it happened. Lewis, Massa and Raikkonnen battled all season in 2008, Lewis was lucky on the last lap, but he was there all along to mkaet he luck work in his favour.

Button had no competition in the 2009 season for the first half, he also had the best car. Lewis when he won the wdc in 2008 had the ferraris battling with him all season.

Button has not been unlucky this season, he's not had that many DNFs. He has NOT been "robbed", these things happen in F1.

You look ignorant.

Lewis has had a few knocks this season. He's been punished for them, been punished for them when others have got away with having the same inicident - schumacher for example.

Calm down.

Just look at things objectively here, how many seasons have F1 seasons been won by the guy with the best car? i'd say 75% atleast. So how can you really blame Button and say that Hamilton had never lost a season to him, just because for the only time in his short career he hadn't had one of the top two cars?! Raikkonen wasn't a factor after half way (2008) as he was driving horrifically and was being hammered by Massa. Look at Massa now, no more than an average driver, though i'm not disputing that could well be down to that incident in Hungary. Button had competition in Barrichello in the same car, i'd say no less of a driver than Kovalainen, also he had Vettel and Webber who had a car good enough for the championship as well. But unlike what Hamilton's ever done in his career bar perhaps 2007, Button was extremely consistent, he won 6 of the first 7 GP's, name me how many drivers have done that; and basically just drove smart after that to win the title. Just like Alonso had to do in 2005 and 2006. F1 isn't always about flash daredevil stuff, that's why they'll always be a place for a Prost and a place for a Senna, but if you look at them at the end of the season they've done a similar job.

My problem is, Button fans seem to think just because button has beaten lewis in a few races, that he's automatically the no1 driver. its takes more then that.

We're not talking about waht massa is like now, i agree he's no longer the driver he once was. BUt in 2008 he was on form and was unlucky to miss out on the 2008 wdc.

I'm not even a Button fan, i just prefer him of the two as he's grossly underrated and seems like a good, honest guy. The problem i have is the sometimes almost posessive defending of Hamilton when he is clearly in the wrong. If you get in a lot of incidents as he pretty much has since he joined the sport like it or not you'll get a name for yourself and given less leeway than if you were a rare offender.

Having said that Hamilton is a faster driver and has more potential, certainly to beat Button. Just not by the unrealistic margins that some believe should be the case.

But the complete opposite of the possessive defending occurs when lewis a slight shunt - people damned he should be banned or will kill someone when others have caused accidents or had a wing taken off and no one bats an eye lid.

Bonjourno!

Some people in this forum say Hamilton should be racing in another era of F1. BUT, it is the drivers from these different eras like Jackie Stewart, Nigel Mansell and Nikki Lauda that are saying Hamilton is a danger to himself and others on the track.

People like these legends know more about the sport than armchair fans and if they see a problem with the driving style adopted by Hamilton then of course they are going to say something. Especially after campaigning for driver safety as long as they have.

These guys have lost many friends and seeing Hamilton driving the way he does reminds them of times when 1 in 3 drivers would not complete races due to fatal circumstances.

They only say this for the good of Hamilton and the sport. They don’t say it to gain attention for themselves. They genuinely care for a sport they love.

Forza Alonso!