Andy Robinson on a Yellow – Townsend on a straight Red

So another tournament and another batch of what if, we nearly did, we had opportunities and if onlys.

Well I am sorry, but this is simply not good enough. We have failed again and look very likely to not get out of the group stages for the first time ever. That is hard to take on its own, but what is a disgrace is the way we have played. Lacklustre, inept and embarrassing are a few ways to describe it
Scotland fans has been saying for the last few years that we have been improving under Robinson and things are getting better. Well I actually do not see it.

We come last or second last in the 6 nations still. We get beaten in most of our games and take the odd one off scalp here and there. The calls are we beat southern hemisphere opposition, so we must be getting better. Well no, we have been extremely lucky and got breaks

We were comprehensively outplayed by Australia and only a rock solid defence and their in ability to kick let us squeak that one.
We beat South Africa – in terrible conditions, were rugby could not really be played and it was their second team.
We beat Ireland – well we had been smacked around the rest of the Tournament so what does a one off win really mean.
We won the tour in Argentina – great, but only about 3 of their first team were there

Robinson has said he would pick on form – well he hasn’t failed there too.
Ross Rennie is out playing Barclay just now and should have been selected
Morrision never has had any form and the only time we have had an attacking back line was with S Lamont at 12
NDL – is poor and never shown much – Ansbro has been playing better
Gray is out of form and it should have been either Kellock or Hines with Hamilton (How out pack performed against Georgia tells me Hines and Hamilton)
Our bench for the Argentina match was a complete joke.
Parks should not have been in the squad as is not an International player – should have gone with some exciting youth

On top of that Robinson has continually done ill thought through and damaging subs at the 60 mins mark. No flexibility and it seems he has written down a cheat sheet before the game and has to follow it. - Not how a manager should manage a game

Our backs still look clueless and have done for years. Our win loss ratio is no difference from Hadden era

So, while people may call to keep calm, I think Townsend has to go and AR needs to be given a yellow card

We are going to be dropping down the rating at a rate of knots in the next few years, and see us coming last in the 6 nations from now on.
It is a time to panic and without changes (I also mean with the SRU and structure of the game) I think Scotland Rugby will be dead in 10 years (at the very latest)

All will be well with the world if you beat the old enemy though.


Andy Robinson was foolish to bring on the replacements when he did as they weren't needed. Scotland were 6 points up with not long to go. With new players on the pitch it is unsurprising a defensive lapse happened. It can be difficult to adapt to the situation if you have just come on.

Scotland are certainly capable of beating England so you shouldn't write yourselves off just yet. England's backrow and discipline have been poor. They make ideal targets. Force England to concede numerous penalties like their other games will give Paterson chances to nail the penalties.

You won't beat England by throwing the ball around. Frustate them,disrupt them, kick for territory and pray for rain. You beat South Africa and Australia this way.

beshocked wrote:
You won't beat England by throwing the ball around. Frustate them,disrupt them, kick for territory and pray for rain. You beat South Africa and Australia this way.

I presume the England vs Scotland game will be in the same stadium England have played all their matches.. So that stadium will have a glass roof, so rain not an issue.

But as you say I really think the only way Scotland will beat England would be as a result of penalties.

Actaully I think the saying Scotland like teh rain is a myth. We are terrible in the rain.

Woudl prefer it to be dry to allow us to play full rugby.

Winning by penalties is not good enough. We need 4 tries and a win for any chance.

I hope he throws all caution and goes for the most attacking back line

Cussiter
Jackson
Lamont
Ansbro
Evans
Lamont
Danielle

tomshughnice I thought the match was moved to Auckland where it is open I believe.

Riskysports you will not beat England if you do that. Simple as that.

Scotland struggle to score tries - that isn't a myth. That's fact.

You are not terrible in rain at all. It makes Scotland a lot harder to beat. You feed off it. It give you strength. Pray for it.

Your two biggest recent victories against Australia and South Africa you scored no tries. You kicked them to death. It is how you must beat England.

You couldn't score one try against Georgia yet you think you can score 4 vs England? Madness. 4 tries in the entire tournament for Scotland - 4 against Romania.

Play to your strengths which are your defence,kicking ability of Paterson and strong backrow and most importantly hope it rains!

Beshocked - I did not say I thought we could, just we need to for any chance of going through

There is not point just going to a win through kicking as we will be out. However unlikely we must go for a win and try to get out the group

Go out fighting I say

Just rip into England and try to beat them. 3-0 will do for you.

Scottish rugby needs this win. I cant imagine what a hammering at the hands of England would do to Scotland.

But, I said it last week that Scotland would not win against Agrie because they cant score tries and thats how it turned out.

New backs coach?

Boyne - 3-0 wont be enough will it! Scot need to stop England picking up a loosing bonus point too - need to win by more than 8pts.

Argentina are likely to now beat Georgia, most likely with a try bonus point. If the do and England get at least 1 league point then Argies finish second on points diff.

Its a convincing win for Scots against England or bust I'm afraid.

I think if Scotland had played England for their first match it would have been a real game. Now England are gaining momentum and are a much better team than when they started the world cup. Scotland really havnt improved as a team throughout this competition with dissapointing results against Georgia and Argentina

Its hard at the moment to not see past an England win in their final match and by a comfortable margin of around 10 points. I just hope im right!

Some Scores for you.

Italy 53 - 17 Russia
Ireland 62 - 12 Russia
Wales 81 - 7 Namibia
England 67 -3 Romania
England 41 - 10 Georgia

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania (we were lucky)
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia (comfortable but poor)

Leaving Argentina aside, because they are a pretty top class outfit. They ran England very close and I don't think for one minute any of the Pumas will think they had an easy game against Scotland, we just shot ourselves in the foot at the end. What worries me is our lack of tries.

These Scores show just how crap we have become. I have never been more depressed with our game. It's utterly devoid of any scoring menace and threat. Hersh and others have posted in the past that the 6N needs a relegation to encourage growth in some of the teir 2 nations. I think we need it to encourage growth in our own nation. We are an embarrasment to the northern hemisphere and the tag we have rightly earned : "can't score tries" is going to be impossible to shake off any time soon.

We need massive changes to turn this around and to be honest at Club and international level I can't see where these changes are going to come from. Do we need new pro coaches? Do we punt Lineen and put Chalmers into Glasgow? Do we need a Kiwi like Wales have done with Gatland? Is Robinson the right man for Scotland?

All these questions and no answers. Visser becomes eligible for Scotland next year but if I was him I would be thinking twice. He Scores tries yes, but we are on the road to nowhere if we think he is the answer to all our prayers.

Our problem is coming from 9-13 and untill we can fix this we might as well close the damn book and accept the fact we are a second rate rugby nation and our glory days are firmly behind us. This is Scottish Rugby's darkest hour IMO and it is going to take something very special to resolve this situation.

It will have to start at the Pro teams. Edinburgh/Glasgow will need to try differant combinations of backs to see what works and what doesn't. Preferably using youngsters and not the old guard.

Edinburgh -
9. Blair
10. Laidlaw
11. Visser
12. Cairns
13. Nick De Luca
14. Jones
15. Thompson

Glasgow
9. Cusiter
10. Weir / Jackson
12. Jackson / Weir

This might seem desperate, mainly because it is. I cannot stress how bad I never want to see Morrison or Parks again play for Scotland. They simply cannot cut it at international level. We learned this with Henderson who is not that much worse than Morrison.

If we try out some of these combinations at club level come 6N time or if we have some autumn tests we can try out Scotland combinations like :

9. Laidlaw
10. Jackson
11. Evans
12. Ansbro / Weir
13. NDL
14. S Lamont
15. R Lamont

Patterson has long been a fantastic servent of Scottish rugby but now it seems time has finally caught up with him and I resent the fact that Rory Lamont misses out to cater for him at full back.

On a positive note Scotland do have some talented young backs with flair, pace and vision at the moment but they don't seem to get a chance.

Names include : Ansbro, Jones, Bennet, Jim Thompson, Cairns, Visser (next year), Laidlaw, Weir and Jackson.

Jackson I feel thoroughly deserved his man of the match accolade on Sunday and thought he kicked well enough to be given the responsibility of kicking from now on in. In doing so we can have a threat coming from deep in the shape of Rory Lamont.

It's unfortunate for Scotland that you played Georgia in their first game. Both England and Argentina played (will play) Georgia 4 days after another game. And Scotland only had a few days rest after their first game. If they got a bp win then they would only need to beat England.

Best bet in my mind is go for the 9 point kicking win, with a rock solid defence and discipline in the ruck. And hope Argentina thrash Georgia.

As a neutral it would appear that Robinson has done a lot for Scottish rugby. With just two professional teams, small crowds and a small player base, there have been some notable results.

I hope we see a real contest with England and a Scottish vitory by 9 would be nice.

and then you beat SA last autumn.

In terms of tactics for Saturday, it's a really tough one.

Beshocked makes a good point, do we really think we can beat England in an open match?

History tells us that we win our games primarily by roughing up the opposition, making sure all first up tackles are made, making sure we play in the right areas and kicking everything on offer. The last time we were "expansive" and won was probably Croke Park. Prior to that we were excellent at the Millenium but came up short due to injuries and indiscipline. But the wins over SA, Aus and England at Murrayfield were inspired by the pack and the boot, not running rugby.

The only way we can guarantee qualification is by beating England with a 5 point win and depriving them of any points, but I actually think a win by 8 points or more, regardless of tries, will be enough (I back Argentina to take a winning bonus point - Georgia will throw everything into the Romania game).

The question then is really how on earth do we beat England by more than 8 points? I'm not convinced flinging the ball around gets us there. I think we should try and replicate the game plan we had against Argentina (although not the selection), and just execute it better. If we get too focused on scoring 4 tries rather than just getting points on the board, England will run up a cricket score.

On the upside- If Scotland get knocked out, they could go back into the Pro 12 and kick a bit of backside...

2 Scottish teams are 9th and 10th in the league at the moment..

True Boyne. If only Glasgow could play Leinster every week

The difference in the Argentina vs England and Scotland vs Argentina game was the one try in each.

Scotland need to prevent England from scoring tries. That's probably the most important thing. Defence needs to be on top.

Scotland lost to Argentina ultimately because they had lapse of concentration after going 6 points up and Argentina hit them with a sucker punch try.

Scotland should only look to score tries if England go down to 14 men from relentless pressure. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question for England to receive a yellow card.

Scotland need to play for territory, kick their goals,pressurise England and defend well.

Throwing around the ball would be very unwise especially as it's not Scotland's style.

i think robinson will get the sack if scotland go out.

cricketfan90 wrote:i think robinson will get the sack if scotland go out.

Very doubtful and unfair if he does. If anyones head should toll it should be Townsend. Only god or maybe Euan Murray will know why the SRU employed an untried and untested "attack coach" at test level.

I don't think so. Robinson is held in pretty high regard in Scotland and rightly so. There may be question marks if we capitulate against England, but if we play well and lose, then I really don't think sacking Robinson is justified.

Not sure AR should get the sack ... yet

BUT - his selection policy seems flawed, his subsitutions seem flawed and we have no progressed at all under him

On a warning at least!

Riskysports wrote:Not sure AR should get the sack ... yet

BUT - his selection policy seems flawed, his subsitutions seem flawed and we have no progressed at all under him

On a warning at least!

I'm having flash backs to 2006. We were all saying his selections and substitutions seemed flawed back them. The man who gave us (or at least continued with) the Noon and tindall centre partnership.

Imagine selecting Tindall at 12. Who would do that!?

True FES leaving the best inside centre in England at home was foolish.

Well at least since the decision Barritt hasn't played very well at Sarries and vindicated MJ's decision to leave him out. Oh, hang on a minute.....

beshocked wrote:Scotland should only look to score tries if England go down to 14 men from relentless pressure. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question for England to receive a yellow card.

Scotland need to play for territory, kick their goals,pressurise England and defend well.

Throwing around the ball would be very unwise especially as it's not Scotland's style.

But why should that be our style? Its an incredibly outdated style of rugby which the IRB have rightly tried to negate with tweaks to the rules. It will cause the odd upset if the weathers bad but that type of play will never win games consistantly. Is it that wrong for us to ask to start playing like every other top team?

From a much larger perspective aswell, its never going to win fans and attract people to the game in this country. The main argument against rugby I hear from my peers is that theres too much kicking, which if you dont know a thing or two about the game, just doesnt make sense.

Sorry OP - I'm upset too but there's only so much that you can lay at the door of Robinson. Were we really 10 minutes away from your post being about the glass being half full and how well AR is doing?

The glaring poo in the salad is clearly that we need a good backs coach. Even leaving aside the received wisdom that what Toonie had cannot be coached in any event, there is no need whatsoever to continue to employ someone whose ideas are clearly not doing the job with the players. And forget the 'need' for Scotland coaching staff. We'd still be with Franklyn Haddock if there were anything in that.

My dearest wish is that the SRU grow and paid and look to the Super 15 where there is an abundance of great specialist backs coaches. Surely the offer of coaching an international team's set of backs would be of interest to the likes of Daryl Gibson (Crusaders backs coach), Phil Mooney (the guy who got Queensland Reds backline firing) or the excellent Allister Coetzee (Stormers coach)?

And we should throw cash at this problem to get the right person.

No point crying that our current generation of players aren't talented enough. This is completely cyclical - I grew up in the 80s and 90s watching Scotland horse Wales and Ireland almost every 5 Nations.

Look to the pink on the horizon - Mark Bennett, Tim Visser, Lee Jones to name just three. There are strike runners there. Keep the faith.

George - I disagree there is wuite a lot we can lay at his door.

Morrison seems to be his love child - against all evidence keeps selecting him
NDL - again not shown why he is on the pitch

Ansbro and S Lamont have both shown more and were in Form

Barclay is not playing well and the form player is left out - R Rennie

The suicidal subs for no reason at all - at his door

These are why we lost and these are the decisions he makes and continues to do so EVERY match

imperialbigdave look to develop after the world cup. The knockout matches are generally tight affairs. Realistically you won't be outscoring England in the tries department so why not play to your strengths?

beshocked wrote:imperialbigdave look to develop after the world cup. The knockout matches are generally tight affairs. Realistically you won't be outscoring England in the tries department so why not play to your strengths?

because our strengths arent good enough. they dont put large margins past teams. We need to win by 8 points. therefore we should be aiming to win by 20+ points. These guys need to go out there with the intention of manshaming the english, not just to qualify for the knockouts, but to restore belief back to the squad.

We knew Robinson was a poor coach when he got kicked out by England, yes he may of won a World Cup as an assitant coach, but does that automaticly mean Mike Phelan will be as successful as Alex Fergusson if he becomes Manchester United boss?
No it doesn't.

As I mentioned on an earlier thread there is only so much political capital that Robinson can get out of that win against South Africa in 2010.

The brutal bottom line is that if Italy had never been admitted to the 5 Nations then these would of been Scotland results over recent years, it makes for shocking reading to be honest:

2011 - Lost 5 games whitewashed - Wooden Spoon
2010 - Lost 2, won 1, drew 1 - 4th place finish. = Andy Robinson
2009 - Lost 5 games whitewashed - Wooden Spoon
2008 - Lost 4, won 1 - Wooden Spoon
2007 - Lost 4, won 1 - Wooden Spoon (on points difference)
2006 - Won 2, Lost 2 - 3rd place = Frank Hadden
2005 - Lost 5 games whitewashed - Wooden Spoon
2004 - Lost 5 games whitewashed - Wooden Spoon
2003 - Lost 4, won 1 - 4th place = Matt williams
2002 - Lost 4, won 1 - 4th place
2001 - Lost 2, Drawn 1, Won 1 - 4th Place
2000 - Lost 4, won 1 - Wooden Spoon

Imperialbigdave wrote:

beshocked wrote:imperialbigdave look to develop after the world cup. The knockout matches are generally tight affairs. Realistically you won't be outscoring England in the tries department so why not play to your strengths?

because our strengths arent good enough. they dont put large margins past teams. We need to win by 8 points. therefore we should be aiming to win by 20+ points. These guys need to go out there with the intention of manshaming the english, not just to qualify for the knockouts, but to restore belief back to the squad.

Dave
As much as beshoked likes to convince himself that we won't be competitive in dry conditions I haven't seen anything convincing about England up to now, we certainly gave Argentina more of a game than they did.

We need our forwards to get a grip of themselves, be more competitive at the breakdown, and make sure Murray and Rennie are back from the start, I am sure if these two played against the Pumas it would have made a big difference both in the scrum and at the breakdown.

If the forwards can be consistent and competive allowing Jackson space to operate, and if AR lets our backs express themselves then I am sure this opening 15 will cause England problems

15 R Lamont
14 Evans
11 Danielli

13 S Lamont
12 Ansbro

10 Jackson
9 Blair

8 Brown
7 Rennie
6 Stroko

5 Gray
4 Hines

3 Murray
2 Ford
1 Chunk

I am not saying that we will win the game, score 4 tries or win by 8pts, but wouldn't be shocked if we ran England close rain or shine.

flyhalffactory wrote:As much as beshoked likes to convince himself that we won't be competitive in dry conditions I haven't seen anything convincing about England up to now, we certainly gave Argentina more of a game than they did.

Riiiight. You really are an odd one, flyhalf.

"As much as beshoked likes to convince himself that we won't be competitive in dry conditions I haven't seen anything convincing about England up to now, we certainly gave Argentina more of a game than they did"

NOW I remeber what 606 was like- jeas i should have stayed away lol-

mystiroakey wrote:"As much as beshoked likes to convince himself that we won't be competitive in dry conditions I haven't seen anything convincing about England up to now, we certainly gave Argentina more of a game than they did"

NOW I remeber what 606 was like- jeas i should have stayed away lol-

Exactly what does that mean?, even If my six year old grandaughter wrote that I would give her English teacher a rollicking.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:As much as beshoked likes to convince himself that we won't be competitive in dry conditions I haven't seen anything convincing about England up to now, we certainly gave Argentina more of a game than they did.

Riiiight. You really are an odd one, flyhalf.

SourCream
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight indeed, sigh!

more classic 606 stuff - the old gramer/spelling chesnut lol

flyhalf i think you need to worry less about your lack of comprehension skills, my lack of the queens english and more about how you come to your oddball conclusions.

mystiroakey wrote:flyhalf i think you need to worry less about your lack of comprehension skills, my lack of the queens english and more about how you come to your oddball conclusions.

Bit of meat on the bone then laddy

Tell us your words of rugby wisdom,........ exactly what I have said that is oddball in your mind?.

I am sure we are all waiting excitedly with bated breath.

The only wisdom i will offer in this case is that england did enough against argentina and scotland didnt.

case closed, stop being a sore loser

I thought the Scots were plucky in defeat. Yet again. These habits are hard to shift.

The most worrying thing for Scotland is Robinson seems hell bent on you playing tier B Nations as often as possible...
Wales and Ireland will be playing the best in the world every chance they get, and Scotland will be deluding themselves they are a good team by beating Romania and Japan.

While I'm here I'd like to congratulate the Welsh players today on becoming the best team in the World again, after beating the World Class Namibia!
New Zealand look out, you haven't got a hope in hell of beating us now in the Final!

For my two penneth, your main problem is numbers... Wales have got 4 regions (oops only 1 sorry - ospreylia) and you have 2. England have loads, so they have a wide choice of personnel to choose from.

Your problem lies with SRU for not promoting the game enough and in ways alienating the teams - Glasgow & Edinburgh - are people from Dundee or Aberdeen going to support them?

It has taken years, and only recently Neath & Swansea people are united behind the hairspreys.

Lose the city names, build an interest (difficult against wendyball I know) and in time things will get better - just look at Wales - we had some very dark days in the past!

Good luck against the Saes & I hope you do the celts proud

mystiroakey wrote:The only wisdom i will offer in this case is that england did enough against argentina and scotland didnt.

case closed, stop being a sore loser

Yes and all the forum can see how how illuminating you really are. Such is life

Flyhalf you have a very busy week to come, so concentrate on that rather than your dull atempts of humour(is that what the above is??- not sure) you need to find as many reasons as you possibly can as to how you played better than england after failing to beat us.

i will help you out a little bit- i realise how slow you are.

1 the ref was shocking

2 bad luck

3 england cheats

4 to many injuries

5 your players had food posioning

6 englands population is bigger

7 the ref was bilnd

8 england threw the line outs wonky

9 the england team bought the ref

10 the tv companies bought the ref

11 the queen bought the ref

12 england were offside on there 7th try

AlynDavies wrote:The most worrying thing for Scotland is Robinson seems hell bent on you playing tier B Nations as often as possible...
Wales and Ireland will be playing the best in the world every chance they get, and Scotland will be deluding themselves they are a good team by beating Romania and Japan.

While I'm here I'd like to congratulate the Welsh players today on becoming the best team in the World again, after beating the World Class Namibia!
New Zealand look out, you haven't got a hope in hell of beating us now in the Final!

Alyn
I probably can speak on behalf of all the Scottish posters on this forum.............. you will have to scour pretty hard to find anyone who has said that we are a good team because we have beaten lower ranked teams, we haven't even said we are a good team when we beat Australia, or becoming the first team to beat Argentina in their own back yard, or winning five games on the bounce including Ireland (who recently beat Australia). I also think you will find it highly unlikely that you will find us saying that we have this "world class player" or that "world class player"

But for funding Scotland would be playing the most appropriate opposition and that our A team would be doing the same . As much as I would like to be pitted against the top three in the world, to be beaten consistently twice yearly by their touring party (often consisting of rookies, or 2nd/3rd choices) is in my mind not that beneficial.

mystiroakey wrote:Flyhalf you have a very busy week to come, so concentrate on that rather than your dull atempts of humour(is that what the above is??- not sure) you need to find as many reasons as you possibly can as to how you played better than england after failing to beat us.

i will help you out a little bit- i realise how slow you are.

1 the ref was shocking

2 bad luck

3 england cheats

4 to many injuries

5 your players had food posioning

6 englands population is bigger

7 the ref was bilnd

8 england threw the line outs wonky

9 the england team bought the ref

10 the tv companies bought the ref

11 the queen bought the ref

12 england were offside on there 7th try

Love it .............. You really are shining brightly lad, we can see you a mile off............

Come on more of the same........... Love it

SafeAsMilk wrote:I thought the Scots were plucky in defeat. Yet again. These habits are hard to shift.

Good point well made.

For years i watched Wales go out and lift their skirts inviting all and sundry to have a snack as it were. I would say since 2005 it is one of the key apsects of their game that has improved, even though they often lost there seemed to be a distinct change in concentration in the first 20. Wales play catch up rugby and almost need to be chasing a game, if i were more of a statto i would suggest that in most games they win the 2nd half.

I digress but my point is that it is such a mental game. Scots are always the underdog and always brave losers, they have learned that loss is inevitable whatever they do. Worse than this, and blindingly obvious, is their ability to score tries and if they can sort that out we will see them competing at the 6 Nations again. They need to get that traditional Scottish aggression back into their game too, they used to punch above their weight because they would tear your throat out up front. They need some abrasive hard nosed tight five forwards to take it back to basics

Gatts wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:I thought the Scots were plucky in defeat. Yet again. These habits are hard to shift.

Good point well made.

For years i watched Wales go out and lift their skirts inviting all and sundry to have a snack as it were. I would say since 2005 it is one of the key apsects of their game that has improved, even though they often lost there seemed to be a distinct change in concentration in the first 20. Wales play catch up rugby and almost need to be chasing a game, if i were more of a statto i would suggest that in most games they win the 2nd half.

I digress but my point is that it is such a mental game. Scots are always the underdog and always brave losers, they have learned that loss is inevitable whatever they do. Worse than this, and blindingly obvious, is their ability to score tries and if they can sort that out we will see them competing at the 6 Nations again. They need to get that traditional Scottish aggression back into their game too, they used to punch above their weight because they would tear your throat out up front. They need some abrasive hard nosed tight five forwards to take it back to basics

Yes lets see now.................. This might be the first time since the WC has began that we havent reached the 1/4 finals

Yes lets see now.................. Coming into the Pumas game we won 5 on the bounce!!

Of course we have learned that loss is inevitable ,

We lost to an Agentinian side coming into form, and we didnt think

"oh never mind we will win one day"

We were gutted and blamed our brain fart over the last 5 mins of play that lost the game.

We are probably more realistic of where we are in world rugby than some teams, perhaps naturally "pessimistic", and yes we don't bang on about how many "world class players" we have, so I would say we are more realist than pessimistic.

Finally this is not the 6Ns, this is a bigger tournament called the WC, we have a pretty consistant record in it and not sure but I would say better than Wales overall.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Gatts wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:I thought the Scots were plucky in defeat. Yet again. These habits are hard to shift.

Good point well made.

For years i watched Wales go out and lift their skirts inviting all and sundry to have a snack as it were. I would say since 2005 it is one of the key apsects of their game that has improved, even though they often lost there seemed to be a distinct change in concentration in the first 20. Wales play catch up rugby and almost need to be chasing a game, if i were more of a statto i would suggest that in most games they win the 2nd half.

I digress but my point is that it is such a mental game. Scots are always the underdog and always brave losers, they have learned that loss is inevitable whatever they do. Worse than this, and blindingly obvious, is their ability to score tries and if they can sort that out we will see them competing at the 6 Nations again. They need to get that traditional Scottish aggression back into their game too, they used to punch above their weight because they would tear your throat out up front. They need some abrasive hard nosed tight five forwards to take it back to basics

Yes lets see now.................. This might be the first time since the WC has began that we havent reached the 1/4 finals

Yes lets see now.................. Coming into the Pumas game we won 5 on the bounce!!

Of course we have learned that loss is inevitable ,

We lost to an Agentinian side coming into form, and we didnt think

"oh never mind we will win one day"

We were gutted and blamed our brain fart over the last 5 mins of play that lost the game.

We are probably more realistic of where we are in world rugby than some teams, perhaps naturally "pessimistic", and yes we don't bang on about how many "world class players" we have, so I would say we are more realist than pessimistic.

Finally this is not the 6Ns, this is a bigger tournament called the WC, we have a pretty consistant record in it and not sure but I would say better than Wales overall.

ah ffs fhf , you really want to lock horns today don't you.....exactly what you need in your pack! Seems to me it is your brain that is farting!

Brave even in defeat, what does that say about Scotland...everything. They have the heart and i suggest they have the skill to be a better side, their issues it seems to me are mental. I always read defeat in Robinson's face.

Relax fella and try not to patronise, my reply was specifically on the issue of the mental aspect of rugby and i illustrated how Wales had a similar problem that touch wood we have overcome.

You can throw your toys as much as you like but the fact remains your side is as immature as Wales often are at being clinical and making the right decisions under pressure. these are mental components and when you couple that with an impotent backline you can't be expected to win games.

In the days of Calder, Jeffrey and White you won games by being extremely aggressive and that is what i want to see v England. Not brave losers but gutty fighters. I will be backing the Scots.