England suspend kicking coaches !!!!

by LordDowlais Thu 29 Sep 2011, 7:29 am

So it looks as though England have taken action for their misdemeanour on the weekend. I suppose they had to show that they were doing something about it and this is probably the least damaging thing they could have done. Still it is a little bit drastic I think, but there you go, as long as Wales keep their noses clean I am not really that bothered:-

The Rugby Football Union has suspended two of England's coaches for the Pool B decider against Scotland on Saturday.
Kicking coach Dave Alred and fitness specialist Paul Stridgeon were found to have illegally switched balls during England's 67-3 win over Romania.
England manager Martin Johnson said: "It's unfortunate that we have had to take this action but ultimately there was a breach of the laws of the game.
"But it's happened, some action has been taken and we have to move on."
The pair will be banned from entering Eden Park, the venue for the Scotland game, following an internal RFU review of the incident.
World Cup organisers Rugby World Cup Limited (RWCL) have investigated the matter and will take no further action.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 29 Sep 2011, 7:49 am

Curious that the RFU have stepped in on this one, before hte RWCL investigation is complete? Can't see that anything more than a slapped wrist was required myself?

by **Biltong** Thu 29 Sep 2011, 7:59 am

Can't really see what the fuss was about in the first place.

sure if there is a law stating you must use the same ball that scored the try, then they must adhere to that.

But in my opinion it is a ridiculous law in the first place.

by Davie Thu 29 Sep 2011, 8:01 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Curious that the RFU have stepped in on this one, before hte RWCL investigation is complete?

World Cup organisers Rugby World Cup Limited (RWCL) have investigated the matter and will take no further action.

by eirebilly Thu 29 Sep 2011, 8:10 am

Its a really silly law and the RWCL have done the best thing and chosen to not take any further action as the RFU has already acted. Common sense prevailed.

by Boyne Thu 29 Sep 2011, 8:45 am

Oh dear.

by Portnoy Thu 29 Sep 2011, 8:50 am

A terrible misdemeanour.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29092011/58/world-cup-england-coaches-suspended-ball-switch.html

Should all those players that lob the ball into the crowd after after celebrating a try be also be suspended?

Ben Youngs was yellow-carded for tipping the ball into touchline crowd after it going out of play against Leinster in the HEC quarters. (OK this could be interpreted as a cynical way of slowing the game). But who's not seen it regularly happen?

This is a nonsense law. We all know that the RWC balls are not fit for purpose for place kicking until they have been thoroughly kicked in.

What will now be required is that particularly in the England v Scotland game is that there will have to be near-forensic analysis of the ball used for conversions.

Is there an equal requirement for penalties to be taken with the 'current' ball?

So long as an official ball is used, then that's enough surely? Bolloix innit?

by Effervescing Elephant Thu 29 Sep 2011, 8:58 am

Just one of those quirks of the game. Lets some people get all frothy mouthed for a while.

by BATH_BTGOG Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:00 am

I agree I think there is something going on with the balls, Wilko doesn't miss kicks when in front of the posts, I’ve watched him practice before and the guy can hit the upright when kicking from the corner flag on a regular basis the ones that miss the post take a layer of paint with it.

by **Biltong** Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:04 am

to my understanding the new RWC ball has a smaller sweet spot, and abviously the PSI of the ball will also influence the impact when kicking.

I also read somewhere the manufacturer changed the surface of the ball, similar to the indentations on a golf ball that lowers air resistance when kicked.

by Guest Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:04 am

Portnoy wrote:A terrible misdemeanour.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29092011/58/world-cup-england-coaches-suspended-ball-switch.html

Should all those players that lob the ball into the crowd after after celebrating a try be also be suspended?

Ben Youngs was yellow-carded for tipping the ball into touchline crowd after it going out of play against Leinster in the HEC quarters. (OK this could be interpreted as a cynical way of slowing the game). But who's not seen it regularly happen?

This is a nonsense law. We all know that the RWC balls are not fit for purpose for place kicking until they have been thoroughly kicked in.

What will now be required is that particularly in the England v Scotland game is that there will have to be near-forensic analysis of the ball used for conversions.

Is there an equal requirement for penalties to be taken with the 'current' ball?

So long as an official ball is used, then that's enough surely? Bolloix innit?

Didnt he also get the same yellow card for doing that vs Ireland in the grand slam deciding match? If it prevents a quick throw in then it is cynical.

by Boyne Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:04 am

Now that Prince Johnny has missed a few, maybe the British commentators will desist from the usual "Oh he's missed it. He's human after all!!"

After he misses 2, 3, 4, it becomes ridiculous.

by Portnoy Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:07 am

Have I got the two games confused Biltong?

I thought it was the Leinster game. But I'm can't believe it happened in both.

I'm human. Not a computer.

by yappysnap Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:07 am

Here little fishies...

by **Biltong** Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:11 am

Portnoy wrote:Have I got the two games confused Biltong?

I thought it was the Leinster game. But I'm can't believe it happened in both.

I'm human. Not a computer.

I think you meant Ironmike. Wink

by BATH_BTGOG Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:14 am

Time for bed Portnoy!

by Portnoy Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:25 am

Oops. Ironmike indeed. Doh

And sorry BTGOG, I just don't fancy you Wink

by maestegmafia Thu 29 Sep 2011, 9:46 am

Reading Johnsons quotes the phrase "begrudging of the implications", rather than accepting the consequences, comes to mind...!

by HERSH Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:01 am

Good to see the RFU taking action for once, but people are missing the point ok they've done wrong, but why are England’s (+ others) balls being tampered with or not knocked in (kicked in) as all other international match balls are?

This smells like the IRB again! furious

by damage_13 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:02 am

Portnoy wrote:A terrible misdemeanour.

This is a nonsense law. We all know that the RWC balls are not fit for purpose for place kicking until they have been thoroughly kicked in.

So long as an official ball is used, then that's enough surely? Bolloix innit?

you're the only other person I know who hasn't brought the PR and MSM spoon fed Love sacks about the ball being perfect and all tested etc etc.

The balls need kicking in, regardless of the technology used in manufacture. Having said that some techniques work better than others (the USA kicker I think) slow stroked the ball over in an almost gentle kick and the ball flies true. Those used to a firm strike have massive problems with it.

This is a massive game changer, someone like Jonny does not miss that many at any level, even Patterson is missing some (sod the weather, he's used to kicking 90%+ in it) furious

by damage_13 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:04 am

Hersh, take the tinfoil hat off, its like that for ALL the teams.

Also this was dealt with during the game, at half time England were told to desist and they did. All a load of bull tbh, RFU jumped the gun to stop any further charges and clear the sheet. Its not like these coaches are needed match day is it.?

Unlike the defence and attack coaches

by HERSH Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:10 am

It happened in 2007 as well, England were given different match balls to practice with, and the PSI of some balls were less than they should have been on match day, the IRB have it in for us.

by eirebilly Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:16 am

Hell of a TheGreyGhost impersonation there HERSH Wink

by Portnoy Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:27 am

That is true Hersh. England (and Wilko) had to check the serial numbers on the ball.

I do not recall the same ball law being enforced though.

I smell the whiffiiness of the ABE brigade. Still - don't panic and carry on...

by HERSH Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:35 am

I guess we should be flattered that some people are messing around with our balls Whistle

, they must see us as a real threat once again.

by Portnoy Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:44 am

Not yet Hersh. 2015 will provide a real headache for the ABEs.

But by then Lievremont will be long gone.

A lot of water will have gone under the bridge by then.

But I'm more confident of then than now.

by red_stag Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:50 am

Seems a bit needless for RFU to suspend the coaches. I suspect that they felt they needed to show action after Tindallgate. However I think they have over reacted. I'd have thought accepting the smack on the wrist would be a better approach.

by greybeard Thu 29 Sep 2011, 10:55 am

Why is it ok for a player to pull a fast one on the pitch and not a member of the support staff?

Apart from the law being more or less silly (I can't think why it's needed other than to stop a team from taking a conversion before the team scored against have time to prepare to charge the kick) the kicker and the kicking coaches infringed on the law together. Nobody would suggest suspending the player... would they?

by robbo277 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 11:08 am

I don't think it's a huge sanction the RFU have applied upon itself, so doing it to end all the talk on the matter is probably for the best. Still think the whole issue is a bit of a nonsense.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Sep 2011, 12:19 pm

Maybe its Lawes' head kicking coach who got suspended?

by GunsGerms Thu 29 Sep 2011, 12:25 pm

I think the WRU should have suspended Matthew Rhys and Mike Philips for using the wrong ball in the 6N too.

by **George Carlin** Thu 29 Sep 2011, 12:25 pm

They must be kicking themselves.

by TBJ9625 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 12:29 pm

why have they suspended two coaches, when it was Wilkinson asking for the balls to be swapped??? Surely it should be him that carries the can??? Not wanting to start an arguement here, but he started/caused the offence? It's a bit like the player being cited for a high tackle and the the defense coach being suspended for teaching them how to do it? That said, glad some action was taken

by LordDowlais Thu 29 Sep 2011, 12:52 pm

Oh no, hear we go, good luck with this one TBJ9625 boxing

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Sep 2011, 12:58 pm

TBJ9625 wrote:why have they suspended two coaches, when it was Wilkinson asking for the balls to be swapped??? Surely it should be him that carries the can??? Not wanting to start an arguement here, but he started/caused the offence? It's a bit like the player being cited for a high tackle and the the defense coach being suspended for teaching them how to do it? That said, glad some action was taken

Jonny " hey coach my kicking sucks"
Coach " let me feel your balls"
Jonny "sure thing but these gay rumours wont go away will they hahaha"
Coach " OK its clear the problem is with old balls vs new ones and the pressure changing what we'll do is swap the balls for you Jonny"
Jonny" sure thing coach, ill go along with that since its your job to make these decisions and mine to carry them out..but isnt taht against the rules
Coach " well youd think so but i reckon that the change in the ball pressure means that its damaged and therefor can be replaced, but we wont bother checking that with th erefs we'll just go ahead and do it"
Jonny "OK cant wait for the game,hopefully I wont look like such an idiot this time"
Coach " Hey Jonny come get your new ball to take this kick please"
Jonny " OK coach sure thing, since this is the instruction I have been given I will follow it"
Coach " Right but remeber youll get suspended for a decision I made to bend a rule hahahaha"

Im guessing it went something like that, the coaches got suspended because it was their idea.

by robbo277 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 1:04 pm

TBJ9625 wrote:why have they suspended two coaches, when it was Wilkinson asking for the balls to be swapped??? Surely it should be him that carries the can??? Not wanting to start an arguement here, but he started/caused the offence? It's a bit like the player being cited for a high tackle and the the defense coach being suspended for teaching them how to do it? That said, glad some action was taken

Your simile isn't similar at all.

Scenario 1:
Coach: I don't care how you stop *opposition danger man* just stop him.
Player illegally tackles *opposition danger man*
Player gets punished for executing an illegal tactic

Scenario 2:
Player: Coach, I can't kick with this ball. When a try is scored, quickly switch it for me for a better one.
Coach illegally switches ball.
Coach gets punished for executing an illegal tactic.

Get it?

by TBJ9625 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 1:26 pm

Robbo, if that's what happened then fair enough, I didn't see it. If wilkco refused to uses a ball and gestured for another, then it's wilkco's fault. Happy to take advice on that one??
Like I say, not trying to start an arguement, just sounding out my thoughts?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Sep 2011, 1:33 pm

We cant know for sure who the one was who instigated the whole thing, but the fact that its the coaches who got suspended and Wilko not censured suggests that they are either " taking one for the team," or that it was them.
Certainly the authorities dont have a problem with Wilko's actions.

by TBJ9625 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 1:40 pm

I suppose that's the point I'm trying to make. If a coach gets a suspension, does it affect the team. England taking to the field without Wilco in the squad, removes a valuable game winning asset.

by robbo277 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 1:59 pm

I didn't notice anything untoward, but I've heard stuff about the ball boys etc. I don't know. Personally I don't think anyone should have been banned and had the RFU left it then they would have got a warning (especially after it stopped after they were warned at half time). But maybe the slightest chance that RWCL would ban Wilkinson forced the RFU's hand, offering up a couple of coaches as a sacrifice on the altar. Still, to ban Wilkinson would have been ridiculous in my opinion.

Just checking the highlights, apparently the issue centred around an incident in the 32nd minute or so, I'll see if I can spot anything.

EDIT: Didn't show anything on ITV's coverage. Apparently it was Ashton's first try and the ball boy kicked the ball away. However on ITV they just showed a replay of the try and then WIlkinson knocking it over.

by GunsGerms Thu 29 Sep 2011, 2:32 pm

I think England should draft in Dean Richards into the coaching set up to restore some integrity.

by sirBiggles Thu 29 Sep 2011, 2:34 pm

This has always been a bug bear of mine. The rules are simple, you use the same ball for the conversion that was used to score the try. I have always been anoyed, when players like Ashton, Cueto, Foden and especially YOUNGS (who does it nearly every time), where they score a try then throw the ball into the crowd. The ref, should disallow the try... ok harsh, but they'll soon stop doing it.

In this paricular case, as the England team have admitted to it, by the virtue they have suspended coaches, then I think the RWC should dock England 2 Points. It wont alter their position (current that is) at the top of Pool B, but it would make this weekend's games even more interesting....

C'mon Scotland... dont give up.... Braveheart

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 29 Sep 2011, 2:52 pm

sirBiggles wrote:This has always been a bug bear of mine. The rules are simple, you use the same ball for the conversion that was used to score the try. I have always been anoyed, when players like Ashton, Cueto, Foden and especially YOUNGS (who does it nearly every time), where they score a try then throw the ball into the crowd. The ref, should disallow the try... ok harsh, but they'll soon stop doing it.

In this paricular case, as the England team have admitted to it, by the virtue they have suspended coaches, then I think the RWC should dock England 2 Points. It wont alter their position (current that is) at the top of Pool B, but it would make this weekend's games even more interesting....

C'mon Scotland... dont give up....

All I read there is "I hate ...list of England players ...come one Scotland."
The rest was really just filler wasnt it? :P

Im sure the refs should watch for the ball going into the crowd more closely though, Ill agree with you on that one Welshy Wink

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:03 pm

I'd like to know what a Scottish try scorer does after scoring but I'm having trouble finding one.

by emack2 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:39 pm

Really a stupid rule?all the captain had to do was consult the ref before changing the ball.
That stupid rule could decide the group,ball tampering could be punished by loss of points.
The group is so tight that points deducted could mean an early journey home.
If it happened in the final and was decided by a goal kick[as most have been].Your side lost because the other side had a ball that better suited there goal kicker.

by TheGreyGhost Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:43 pm

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5708038/IRB-fines-Samoan-player-10k-over-mouthguard

More unbelievable double-standards.

England are always at it, either the 16 man debacle, now ball-switching.

They should be docked their 5 points due to blatant in-game cheating. England need to learn that they have to play by the laws of the game like everybody else and not make them up as they go along.

Unsurprising that the toothless IRB has done nothing at all. We only had to look at their non-reaction to the outrage around Wayne Barnes, another RFU cronie to know that England can do no wrong in law-breaking.

by Effervescing Elephant Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:46 pm

Is everyone from NZ obsessed with England? Is it a secret crush thing. Like at primary school when you'd pull the hair of the girl you fancied? Just pluck up the courage and ask us out on a date. We're fairly easy, we might say yes. (Although if Wales are out on the same night there might be a bit of a scene!)

by robbo277 Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:48 pm

$10k for the wrong mouthguard does sound harsh, but I fail to see what that has for England.

England committed a nothing offence in the first half, got warned about it at half time, didn't repeat the offence and then banned the two staff they found responsible. The RWCL then decided there was nothing else worth pursuing.

Alesana Tuilagi wore the wrong mouthguard and the IRB have fined him. I fail to see what that has to do with the RWCL's judgement on a completely different offence involving a completely different set of people.

by majesticimperialman Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:52 pm

I dont understand how the 2 coaches manage to throw a different ball on in the first place.

So if your team scores a try, How can your coach throw a ball on to the field?

Surely it is the ball boys who have controll over the balls.

by TheGreyGhost Thu 29 Sep 2011, 3:52 pm

No, NZ is not obsessed with England. I think journalists are obsessed with the perception of inequality, and rightly so.

Samoa have got the raw end of the pineapple in their draw. Many of the worlds greats are now questioning the inequitable distribution of RWC revenue, England are past masters at escaping law infractions on and off the field and now we see Samoa banged up for a hefty fine for a advertising transgression, whilst England walk away scott free after blatantly cheating.

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