Jack Johnson

Afternoon lads.
Just watching a documentary about Jack on ESPN classics.
The power and speed he had even later on in the rounds (14th against Tommy Burns) was very impressive.

What's your thoughts on Jack, was he really 'that' good, or was it a case of easy competition for him?

Recorded that one, was it any good?

Its a great watch huw, some brilliant footage

huw wrote:Recorded that one, was it any good?

Your tape might have deteriorated.

As for Jack, he splits opinion. Very important figure, dominant, but not the greatest title reign or consistency pre title and I think some of his wins are overrated.

Bit of both. He was clearly an excellent fighter but it would have to be said that once he had won the title his opposition was almost uniformly rubbish and there were far more talented and qualified fighters out there who Jack should have been defending against out there. However in his defence he beat most of these guys more than once on the way up which suggests the talent was real.

Am always a bit undecided with Johnson, was a sublimely gifted fighter defensively and to even get a shot as a black fighter in his day can't have been easy and bespeaks well of his abilities but I find his unwillingess to face other great black fighters once champion unforgivable and is a pity because he would have probably been favourite against most of them, but you have to downgrade him down a little for his failure to face them.

Some of his defensive moves were pretty exceptional and way ahead of their time. Scott is right, his title reign wasn't great but his record before that is pretty impressive for me. Would have been nice to see him in with Jeffries a few years earlier, but Johnson was talented, no doubt about that.

Absolutely love his attitude toward the predjudice he faced, just completely ignored it half the time. Must have wound the establishment up something chronic.

Damn you Rowley.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Absolutely love his attitude toward the predjudice he faced, just completely ignored it half the time. Must have wound the establishment up something chronic.

Am going to have to disagree with you there Tino, this is an attitude we are seeing a lot now where people applaud Jack for his attitude and I can get it because there is something vaguely admirable about a guy who has suffered horrific prejudice thumbing his nose at those who have oppressed him but I also feel his conduct and beahviour made things a lot tougher for the other black fighters both at his time and in the years after and the more I think about it have to think a more moderate approach would have been appropriate.

Think there is a streak of selfishness to Jack, from what I have read he was far from a stupid man and was certainly bright enough to know how his actions were perceived and therefore the impact they would have had on other black fighters. By choosing to ignore this and carry on regardless speaks pretty poorly of the man to my mind.

rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Absolutely love his attitude toward the predjudice he faced, just completely ignored it half the time. Must have wound the establishment up something chronic.

Am going to have to disagree with you there Tino, this is an attitude we are seeing a lot now where people applaud Jack for his attitude and I can get it because there is something vaguely admirable about a guy who has suffered horrific prejudice thumbing his nose at those who have oppressed him but I also feel his conduct and beahviour made things a lot tougher for the other black fighters both at his time and in the years after and the more I think about it have to think a more moderate approach would have been appropriate.

Think there is a streak of selfishness to Jack, from what I have read he was far from a stupid man and was certainly bright enough to know how his actions were perceived and therefore the impact they would have had on other black fighters. By choosing to ignore this and carry on regardless speaks pretty poorly of the man to my mind.

Hard to judge this though Rowley.

The way he ignored the racism should be applauded and he shouldn't have had to tone it down as it was others in the wrong. As you say though others that followed him were judged harder, but this was again by the people in the wrong.

In reading 'Dark Trade' the author suggests that Bruno acted the way he did to be liked by the masses and had internal demons due to not being true to himself.

As I say I can see both sides but that is because we have the advantage in being able to see it with clearer perspective in a much more reasoned time.

rowley wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Absolutely love his attitude toward the predjudice he faced, just completely ignored it half the time. Must have wound the establishment up something chronic.

Am going to have to disagree with you there Tino, this is an attitude we are seeing a lot now where people applaud Jack for his attitude and I can get it because there is something vaguely admirable about a guy who has suffered horrific prejudice thumbing his nose at those who have oppressed him but I also feel his conduct and beahviour made things a lot tougher for the other black fighters both at his time and in the years after and the more I think about it have to think a more moderate approach would have been appropriate.

Think there is a streak of selfishness to Jack, from what I have read he was far from a stupid man and was certainly bright enough to know how his actions were perceived and therefore the impact they would have had on other black fighters. By choosing to ignore this and carry on regardless speaks pretty poorly of the man to my mind.

See I look at it from a different perspective. I can only take a pretty uneducated guess at how he must have felt internally when faced with the level of vitriol he received, but I can't imagine it really crossed his mind to any great degree how his actions would impact on future generations. However cool and calm he appeared on the outside, inside he must have been hurting big time, and to scream and shout at the top of his lungs would have been pretty understandable. I like the fact he held on to a level of dignity and maintained his composure most of the time. Would have been easier not too.

There probably is a streak of selfishness about the man, but under that kind of emotional stress, I am willing to give him certain leeway. He would have been some kind of exceptional man to put others before himself under that kind stress.

He far from a perfect human being, but I am more than perpared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

As I have said previously I understand the way he reacted, none of us least of all me have ever been a black guy growing up in turn of the 20th century America so none of us have experienced the prejudice/provocation Jack would have encountered on a daily basis so none of us can say in that position we would have reacted any differently but I just don't like the current trend to repaint his behaviour as some sort of heroic act of defiance because I am not too sure it was.

Certainly don't castigate him for his conduct because like I say the provocation must have been horrific but nor am I likely to applaud him for it either. Personally would be far more to forgive his behaviour had he not denied other black fighters the opportunity he had had to work so hard to get, as this is pretty shameful and something too many seem ready to give him a pass on.

rowley wrote:As I have said previously I understand the way he reacted, none of us least of all me have ever been a black guy growing up in turn of the 20th century America so none of us have experienced the prejudice/provocation Jack would have encountered on a daily basis so none of us can say in that position we would have reacted any differently but I just don't like the current trend to repaint his behaviour as some sort of heroic act of defiance because I am not too sure it was.

Certainly don't castigate him for his conduct because like I say the provocation must have been horrific but nor am I likely to applaud him for it either. Personally would be far more to forgive his behaviour had he not denied other black fighters the opportunity he had had to work so hard to get, as this is pretty shameful and something too many seem ready to give him a pass on.

Agree completely.

The usual excuse is that they would never have been able to stage such a fight though as it would have either not sold or caused riots depnding upon which articles you read.

Do you think either argument stands up?

Huw I genuinely don't think it stacks up, have read more than once that Johnson was offered anywhere up to $50,000 to face Langford in Australia, when one considers he received about 10% of this for facing Battling Jim Johnston in Paris one can only assume Johnson was only willing to fight black fighters who had little or no chance of actually beating him.

rowley wrote: but I just don't like the current trend to repaint his behaviour as some sort of heroic act of defiance because I am not too sure it was.

Will have to respectfully agree to disagree on that then. Too me, it was a pretty heroic and brave act of defiance. Yes, his actions may have made things worse for other black boxers, but to be thinking that clearly, under that duress? Not for me. I just can't see how he could have made that mental calculation. Maybe he could and I am overplaying it, but in the context of his times, I don't see it.

Great fighter....A pioneer who was ahead of his time..

As for not fighting the best.....well you can only rate him on who he beat and Burley etc would've been hugely controversial..

Shouldn't affect him too much..Dempsey could be accused of the same thing and Louis lost to his best opponents..

All are top 5...

Certainly Ali aside the most charismatic fighter in Boxing...

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

rowley wrote: but I just don't like the current trend to repaint his behaviour as some sort of heroic act of defiance because I am not too sure it was.

Will have to respectfully agree to disagree on that then. Too me, it was a pretty heroic and brave act of defiance. Yes, his actions may have made things worse for other black boxers, but to be thinking that clearly, under that duress? Not for me. I just can't see how he could have made that mental calculation. Maybe he could and I am overplaying it, but in the context of his times, I don't see it.

Tito, in the context of the times it was the norm. In comparison, it is not too disimilar to you or I complaining about having to queue for the NHS while others go 'private'. We could get up and protest like Bob Crow but then again everyone does (or should) think he's got a £100k salary, lives in a council house and is a complete tw@t.

I can never blame Johnson for his attitude towards the people in high places of the time. The guy was treated terribly and people expect him to bow down and play the fiddle to the tune of the white man for the benefit of others?

Absolute madness a man well ahead of his time inside and outside of the ring. The Muhammad Ali of his era.

I understand that Johnson may have brought some extra attention on his race but that was because he stood up for himself, for that not happen he would have to be a doormat like the rest of them. He was Heavyweight champ. Black people would have been treated like Poopie whether Johnson was around or not. He got himself into a position by himself so had nobody to repay. Nobody had his back when he was taking abuse. He should be applauded for taking on white America on his own. Black people weren't happy with the unwanted attention but that was due to the racism of the times and it helped all of them in the long run.

Jack's a complex man. Granted he set back the rights of black heavyweight boxers until louis, but was it his responsibilty to take on the rights of all black boxers. If I was in his posistion, I probably would have been looking out for my own interests too.
Its can be easily argued that he was past (have come to hate this word) his prime by the start of his reign. The smear campaign against johnson also means that most of the existing footage shows him in a poor light rather than the skilled boxer that he was.
I'm not one for stressing over where a boxer fits into a top ten, but he's the type of guy that ignited my interest into researching the old school guys.

its become a bit fashionable to knock jack... i quite like the way he stuck 2 fingers up to the establishment and don't hold the subsequent treatment of black fighters against him. Given the human rights situation for american blacks was still dreadful half a century later, i don't hold this against him.

not defending against the better black fighters round at the time is a more viable criticism and whatever the motives/reasons does count against him from a sporting perspective.

As a fighter, he was right up there though.

My views are similar to rowley on Jack Johnson. Im reluctant to give him a sort of crusader status. We know enough about Jack Johnson to know that he was in no way ignorant of the consequences of his action and he knew that his behaviour would be detremental to his own people. He was happy to be anti establishemnt when it suited him personally but not if meant having to take on tougher competition or give equal opportunities to other black fighters in which case he was happy to tow the line.

Unlike Ali for example, he wasnt fighting for any cause outside his own interests. His status meant he assumed a burden of great responsibilty and opportunity and in my view he did little or nothing with this opportunity to improve relations or opportunities for his own people. If anything he did the opposite just for his own persona sense of satisfaction and payback against white America.

I understand people may admire this kind of rebel attitude but I think its mistake to look at it as much more than a sort of personal pay back which ultimately I think had negative consequences. The fact that we have pretty solid evidence which indicates Johnson knew and understand the negative consequences means Im reluctant to consider some kind of champion for political, social and cultural advancement and change.

i'd agree cl, i'm admiring of his up yours attitude but i certainly don't see it as a crusade

I watched a film of his career a while back and was amazed at his defencive style of fighting,it was brilliant to watch. I also liked how he thumbed his nose at the authorities once he was champion,it mentioned one occasion when he was stopped for speeding and given an on the spot fine,he gave them double as he said he would be coming back that way and would probably be speeding on the way back.

Colonial Lion wrote: He was happy to be anti establishemnt when it suited him personally but not if meant having to take on tougher competition or give equal opportunities to other black fighters in which case he was happy to tow the line.

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Excellently put Lion, hits the nail on the head for me. People admire his attitude as some sort of thumbing the nose at white America. There would have been no better way of doing that than defending his title against other black fighters, his failure to do so suggests self interest was Jack's main motivation. Just can't admire someone for what boils down to selfishness.

Colonial Lion wrote:My views are similar to rowley on Jack Johnson. Im reluctant to give him a sort of crusader status. We know enough about Jack Johnson to know that he was in no way ignorant of the consequences of his action and he knew that his behaviour would be detremental to his own people. He was happy to be anti establishemnt when it suited him personally but not if meant having to take on tougher competition or give equal opportunities to other black fighters in which case he was happy to tow the line.

Unlike Ali for example, he wasnt fighting for any cause outside his own interests. His status meant he assumed a burden of great responsibilty and opportunity and in my view he did little or nothing with this opportunity to improve relations or opportunities for his own people. If anything he did the opposite just for his own persona sense of satisfaction and payback against white America.

I understand people may admire this kind of rebel attitude but I think its mistake to look at it as much more than a sort of personal pay back which ultimately I think had negative consequences. The fact that we have pretty solid evidence which indicates Johnson knew and understand the negative consequences means Im reluctant to consider some kind of champion for political, social and cultural advancement and change.

His actions were made a lot worse by the times, he didn't actually do anything that bad, could you imagine Floyd Mayweather burning money back in 1910, don't think it would go down too well.