Why Neath went crawling back to the Ospreys

by Shifty Sun 09 Oct 2011, 6:36 pm

Well Neath and the Ospreys been one of the strangest episodes in Welsh rugby recently.

The Welsh Premiership has been reorganised for next season, and Bridgend were kicked out of it at the expense of Neath. yet Neath have publicly refused to have anything to do with the Ospreys in public.
Yet clearly for Neath to be included in the Premiership they had to be part of their region, something had to be done behind the scenes but no one knew what had been agreed.

Now the reason may have finally come to light, the guy who's bankrolling Neath, and paying the wages of all Neaths players, which is allowing them to dominate Welsh domestic rugby, has put his business into administration.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2011/10/08/jobs-at-risk-as-plywood-business-goes-into-administration-91466-29559077/#ixzz1aHT9XMyI

THE plywood import business founded by Neath Rugby chairman Geraint Hawkes has gone into administration, putting 27 jobs at risk.

FG Hawkes (Western), which trades under the name RKL Plywood, was put into administration by its directors on Thursday.

The company, based at Kings Dock, Swansea imports plywood from China and Brazil for sale to the building trade.

It has an annual turnover of around £34m and was last year listed as Wales’ 132nd biggest business.

The majority of the company’s staff are employed at it Swansea site, but the business also has operations at Bristol, Leeds, Londonderry and Old Kilpatrick, near Glasgow.

In a statement issued yesterday Grant Thornton said that Alistair Wardell and Nigel Morrison have been appointed as joint administrators.

Mr Wardell, a partner in the recovery and reorganisation team at Grant Thornton in Cardiff, said he would begin seeking a buyer for the business.

That effort has already begun with the business being advertised for sale in the Financial Times.

The advertisement said the company currently had £7m worth of plywood at its UK sites and a further £3m of stock in transit.

It is understood the company had been in difficulties for some time, something a spokesman for its bankers, Barclays, confirmed.

“Barclays has worked with the directors of FG Hawkes for some time to try to help them resolve the company’s financial problems,” he said. “Unfortunately this has not been achieved and the directors have now placed their company into administration.”

The company has been trading since 1987, having originally been set up in an old church hall in Glynneath.

According to the company’s most recent audited accounts, covering the year to July 2010, the business had net assets of £9.96m and made an annual pre-tax profit of £962,967, with an operating profit of £1.9m.

Its founder Geraint Hawkes is a well-known figure in rugby circles. He became chairman of Neath Rugby Club after leading a consortium of businessmen which bought the club in 2003.

He later fell out with Ospreys director Mike Cuddy, leading to a high-profile court case.

Clearly the money has dried up, and Cuddy has finally seen off his rival, so Neath have no choice but to go back cap in hand to the Ospreys.

by Cari Sun 09 Oct 2011, 7:13 pm

To be honest, I don't see what the alternative would have been. They would have been region-less essentially which would cause all sorts of problems for them.

by Kingshu Mon 10 Oct 2011, 9:09 am

What happened Bridgeend?

by Shifty Mon 10 Oct 2011, 3:37 pm

Kingshu wrote:What happened Bridgeend?

The Wru basically screwed them over an invented a system where by they wouldnt be eilgible for inclusion in the new welsh league. Bridgend got relegated a few years ago and because they spent a few years in the league below it they were deemed to not have enough qualifing points. Though if any club should be dropped it should be swansea becase that place looks a shambles these days.

by Guest Mon 10 Oct 2011, 3:45 pm

Alyn that's ridiculous, they were in no way screwed over.

The WRU reviewed all the clubs' form in the premiership over the last 5 seasons I belive. Of the clubs in the O's region, Bridgend had the worst record so were not kept in the Premiership, it's as simple as that. Why should the other more consistantly successful clubs suffer for them. If Bridgend had a better record they'd have been allowed to stay in the premiership. They should use this now as a real drive to improve themselves on and off the field to gain promotion. It's situations like this that will hopefully make the club sides a lot more competitive.

by Kingshu Mon 10 Oct 2011, 4:10 pm

As I understand it Brigeend wouldn't be able to get id if the Ospreys region already has 3 clubs in the prem,
have to say feel sorry for Bridge end with the Celtic Warriors and relegaton and regaletion again and all that

by wayne Mon 10 Oct 2011, 4:16 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:Alyn that's ridiculous, they were in no way screwed over.

The WRU reviewed all the clubs' form in the premiership over the last 5 seasons I belive. Of the clubs in the O's region, Bridgend had the worst record so were not kept in the Premiership, it's as simple as that. Why should the other more consistantly successful clubs suffer for them. If Bridgend had a better record they'd have been allowed to stay in the premiership. They should use this now as a real drive to improve themselves on and off the field to gain promotion. It's situations like this that will hopefully make the club sides a lot more competitive.

Why stipulate 5 years it would obviously hit the recently promoted teams, why not wait until the end of this season and leave it to the top 10 teams or go back to the beginning of Regionalisation and add the points accumulated in that period, the plans that are being passed at the moment for the Sporting village will be far superior to anything that any of the Regions have never mind the 2nd Tier clubs have on one site.

Many Bridgend supporters do not support Regionalisation because of the way they say the WRU treated the Warriors, and it appears the vendetta is still being played out, if either of the scenarios I advocate above were put into play, it would not be set in stone that Bridgend or any other club would automatically relegated.

by Guest Mon 10 Oct 2011, 4:49 pm

Why would you punish the more consistant teams over the last 5 or 6 years just for one poor season? Of course it would hit the more recenlty promoted clubs and in the short term, yes that seems harsh, but I would say it's even harsher on the clubs who have put in consistantly high performances for a number of years to lose out.

There was never going to be a win/win sitaution here for everyone. I think the WRU have found the right balance here and have developed the correct set up (although I'd have preferred 8 rather than 10 teams) to provide room for growth for teams in lower divisons to set themselves targets to achieve and improve standards on a consistant basis, that will provide a much higher level of rugby in the premiership. This in turn will provide a bigger crop of players more capable of stepping up when called upon to regional level or the acadamies.

I find this talk of "vendettas" a bit much to be honest. I just wish for once Welsh clubs could move away from all this stupid grudge holding. It's like looking for a fight when one isn't needed. All it will do is hold Welsh rugby back.

by wayne Mon 10 Oct 2011, 6:45 pm

If you are going to have it for the most consistent team you should at least give it a decent period of time, why not to the start of Regionalisation, which is only a few years more, why arbitrarily 5 years, it automatically gets rid of Bridgend.

Like it or not that is how many Bridgend supporters feel, I'm not one of them, apart for the last 2 seasons I've been an Ospreys season ticket holder since they moved to the Liberty, only being unable to support due to ill health these past 2 years.

I do not know, perhaps Bridgend would still get relegated if they used either of the criteria I mentioned in my earlier post, lay your cards on the table what club team do you support and would they get relegated if either of those criteria were used.

Also facilities are very often taken into account when Leagues are either shortened or extended in many other sports, it is funny (not ha ha) that this criteria was unfolded a few months AFTER plans for the Sports Village were unveiled.

by Guest Mon 10 Oct 2011, 7:00 pm

I support Llandeilo. I used to also support Llanelli as they were the biggest club nearest me when I was younger (I grew up in a village in the middle of no where in Carmarthenshire). I much prefer it now that I can support an actual region which is the Scarlets.

I take an interest in all three of Llanelli, Llandovery and Carmarthen Quins as they are all so crucial to the Scarlets' success, and I believe the Quins are to be relegated along with Bridgend. No complaints from me.

Maybe they should have done the review as 8 years, instead of 5 (if it is 5, like I've already said I'm not sure), but Bridgend wouldn't have been kept up even if that was the case.

If Bridgend supporters are still feeling hard done by by the start of regionalisation but I'm sorry, and I'm going to sound a bit harsh here, it's time for them to grow up and move on and look at the bigger picture of what is best for Welsh rugby on the whole. THe changes the WRU are brining in are going to be painful for many, but they are essential to improving the quality of rugby below regional level. Like it or not, it has to be done.

by Shifty Mon 10 Oct 2011, 7:45 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:Alyn that's ridiculous, they were in no way screwed over.

The WRU reviewed all the clubs' form in the premiership over the last 5 seasons I belive. Of the clubs in the O's region, Bridgend had the worst record so were not kept in the Premiership, it's as simple as that. Why should the other more consistantly successful clubs suffer for them. If Bridgend had a better record they'd have been allowed to stay in the premiership. They should use this now as a real drive to improve themselves on and off the field to gain promotion. It's situations like this that will hopefully make the club sides a lot more competitive.

Sorry Hun I just don't agree with you on this.

The WRU should of taken the largest 8-10 teams historical teams, those with the stadiums and facilities and created a new league.

Then made all the clubs work with the regions collectiveily, why have borders at all in a tiny country like Wales?
If Pontypool have a cracking young scrum half and the Ospreys need one then why not let Pontypool and the Ospreys work together, to bring the lad through?

Cardiff
Swansea
Llanelli
Newport
Pontypridd
Bridgend
Neath
Aberavon
Pontypool
Ebbw Vale

by Guest Mon 10 Oct 2011, 8:09 pm

Bridgend haven't done enough over the past few years to warrent or deserve a sport in the Premiership. The fact thatt the WRU are introducing relegation and promotion from the lower leagues is that they now have to earn it, and other teams have to fight to keep their place. It is all devised to up the standard of rugby in Wales.

Historically large or not, they haven't been consistantly good enough to play at Premiership standard, why should teams who have proven that they can miss out just because Bridgend are 'historically larger'? That makes absolutely no sense to me. We want the best teams playing in the Premiership, not ones who may have been good in the past.

by wayne Mon 10 Oct 2011, 9:27 pm

I just checked the Welsh Premiership for the last 5 Seasons and the top 9 are pretty clear cut Bedwas in 9th place have accumulated 234 points at an average of 46.8 points per season, then 10th and 11th have been Llandovery with 193 over the 5 seasons they have been in the Premiership that is an average of 38.6, Bridgend who have only been in that League for 3 Seasons have accumulated 121 points at an average of 40.33, even though Llandovery have had 2 extra seasons with the advantage of extra points for winning and bonus points for 4 tries and not losing by more than 7. I've been unable to get the points for the previous seasons in Regionalism, but either the first year of Regionalism or the season previous Bridgend won the League. In the time that Bridgend were out of the Premiership to this day, players coming through from this area have included R.Bevington, M.Morgan, G.Owen, T.Prydie and Rhys Webb who would have played for Bridgend, and the Ospreys for about 3 Seasons now have been leasing back players to their normal clubs if the Ospreys havent needed them where do you think L.Byrne, A.Bishop, S.Parker and R.Jones would have been delegated to they were either from this area or played for the Celtic Warriors. 2 of the 3 seasons that Bridgend and Llandovery played in the Principality Premiership Bridgend finished above LLandovery and for those 3 wonderful seasons LLandovery accumulated 96 points.
Isn't it significant also in the future facilities have to be of a reasonable standard to gain admittance to the Premiership, when Bridgend will have better facilities for training and playing than ANY REGION IN WALES, never mind any clubs
Finally, you say about fetching through players for the Welsh team, do you want to start a thread about which club Bridgend or LLandovery have brought through most Welsh players through any 5 year period in the last 40 years. By any reasonable statistic Bridgend should be in the Premiership not LLandovery

by Guest Mon 10 Oct 2011, 9:34 pm

How many international players have Bridgend produced or brought on in the last 5 years? (I geunuinely don't know the answer to this)

I don't particularly care what they did 40 years ago, the game in Wales has changed hugely since then.

So Bridgend should be in you say, who out of Neath or Swansea should they replace? (although is there another club from the O's region as well? I'm not sure but I know two of the regions ahve three club sides in the premiership and two only have two) There have to be 2 club sides representing the Scarlets, their two best sides are Llandovery and Llanelli, so you couldn't drop Llandovery even if you wanted too. You could provide an argument to replace them with Carmarthen Quins though.

by Kingshu Tue 11 Oct 2011, 9:03 am

Wanye, I don't think that using points averages is fair.
If one team (team 1) placed high in the league one year, then the next year got relagated, that would mean over a 3 year period they would have a middleing points average.
Say another team (team 2) spent 3 years fighting off relegation but managed to stay up for those 3 years, they would have a low points average.
But you have to say team 2 staying in the Prem for 3 years is better than team 1 being high in table one year then relagated and then not even in it in year 3. Yet team 1 would have a higher average by your working out.

If you want you can rework out the averages but add a 0 for each year not in the prem meaning Bridgeend's average is 24.2 points.

by Shifty Tue 11 Oct 2011, 4:46 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:Bridgend haven't done enough over the past few years to warrent or deserve a sport in the Premiership. The fact thatt the WRU are introducing relegation and promotion from the lower leagues is that they now have to earn it, and other teams have to fight to keep their place. It is all devised to up the standard of rugby in Wales.

Historically large or not, they haven't been consistantly good enough to play at Premiership standard, why should teams who have proven that they can miss out just because Bridgend are 'historically larger'? That makes absolutely no sense to me. We want the best teams playing in the Premiership, not ones who may have been good in the past.

Well yes Bridgend became the Celtic Warriors and the WRU liquidated them, so for that fact alone a club good enough to be deemed a region should be included in the Premiership simply because the area not longer has it's own region.
I live in the Borough of Bridgend and have no problem with going to Swansea to see the Ospreys but the people of Bridgend should have a premiership team because our area produces many international players. Bevington and Prydie are just 2 players who were newly capped from our area last season.

by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2011, 4:53 pm

If Bridgend were good enough to be deemed a region, why then for 2 or 3 out of the last 5 years, have they not been good enough to be in the premiership? compared to the other main clubs in the O's region, they aren't consistently good enough to be included in the premiership over them. Like I've already stated, they need to do their best now to improve and fight to get promotion. If like another poster has stated and they are getting improved facilities, that should be a big help for them going forward, and to help improve Welsh rugby at that level.

by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2011, 9:04 pm

I'm not sure I understand the thinking behind the new league. Why the difference in the number of clubs in each region? To start with the Blues And Scarletd will have 2 teams and the Dragons and Ospreya 3? Surely this puts the Blues and Scarlets at a disadvantage as they will not have the same opportunity to offer players semi pro experience as the other regions?

The other problem is that all regions could go down to a minimum of 2 teams in the welsh prem. Am I right in saying that, if the Dragons lose Bedwas, for example, and the Ospreys lose Aberavon to relegation, then the other regions could go up to 4 clubs each? Surely at a time when the Dragons and O's prem clubs are struggling (being relegated) then the region will need more help rather than less. If a region end up with only two clubs for a long period then they may end up in spiral of decline that stops regional development in it's tracks.

Or am I being paranoid???! Surely either 8 or 12 clubs would be better, with a relegated club being replaced by the highest placed club from that region in the league below? That would maintain equal opportunity for young talent across the regions.

by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2011, 9:09 pm

8 would have been better imo Griff, at least that way it would have been fair with 2 clubs each!

by Shifty Tue 11 Oct 2011, 9:16 pm

rugbydreamer wrote:If Bridgend were good enough to be deemed a region, why then for 2 or 3 out of the last 5 years, have they not been good enough to be in the premiership? compared to the other main clubs in the O's region, they aren't consistently good enough to be included in the premiership over them. Like I've already stated, they need to do their best now to improve and fight to get promotion. If like another poster has stated and they are getting improved facilities, that should be a big help for them going forward, and to help improve Welsh rugby at that level.

Because Bridgend basically had to rebuild from scratch, Leighton Samuel owns the name Bridgend RFC, and he basically decided to close the club down to concentrate on the rugby league team Celtic Warriors. The club was rescued by a load of businessmen and fans, who kept it going but they didn't really have the investment to keep its level up. They even had to name it Bridgend Ravens because Samuel wouldnt let them use the Bridgend Rfc name!
Llandarcy Park Ltd (the Ospreys) bought the club and has since gone about stabilizing it, while the Crusaders went North and imploded.

by wayne Tue 11 Oct 2011, 9:37 pm

I've done a bit more research, and it appears the number of clubs in any one region is irrelevant to the clubs in the new league, it was all done on a meritocracy of 6 seasons, where was that figure hijacked from. Why not the extra few years to the start of Regionalism
Kingshu, you say it should be done over an average of all seasons, the last 3 seasons that Bridgend were in the Premiership they had 33,47 and 41 points, Llandovery for the same 3 seasons had 21,33 and 42 points, after looking in to the final season that was the season when the Scarlets flew in a load of Regional players in the last third of the season to get them out of trouble and obviously it worked, whereas the Ospreys didn't do the same for Bridgend, I wouldn't mind betting that for every year Llandovery were in the Premiership with Bridgend apart for the final season that Bridgend finished above them, also you cannot give Bridgend 0 points for those seasons because the chances of Llandovery getting extra because of the bonus points now available.
Further this new League stays as it is for 2 years and part of the criteria for promotion after this includes facilities and a business plan, why wasn't this included in the set up for the new League. The WRU also have the power to change the criteria without the interference from anyone as part of the Participation Agreement.

by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2011, 10:11 pm

Wayne. The WRU have stated quite clearly that no region will have less than 2 representative clubs in the new 10 club premiership. By suggesting Llandovery should not be there you're suggesting that the Scarlets should only have 1 club, Llanelli RFC, in the league while the Ospreys should have 4 (Neath, Aberavon, Swansea and Bridgend). That is clearly not an even spread. If Bridgend is bottom of the pile of these 4 Ospreys clubs then, unfortunately for them, but they've got to go. The Scarlets are already losing 1 club, they cannot be left with one.

by wayne Wed 12 Oct 2011, 3:39 pm

Griff, the ONLY CRITERIA as agreed by all parties which included the WRU, RRW and 1st Division West and East was meritocracy over the previous 6 Seasons and this was part of the Participation Agreement, as I said in the previous letter the WRU had the power to change anything to the Criteria unilaterally.
If what you say is true no Region will be allowed less than 1 club in the new League, what happens when Bridgend win the next 2 Seasons League and Llandovery finish bottom of the Upper League, are you saying 1 of Swansea, Neath or Aberavon would get relegated instead of Llandovery even though they would have finished above them. IF THAT IS TRUE THE WRU WOULD LOOK EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS THAN WHAT THEY DO NOW.

by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2011, 6:04 pm

If Llandovery finish bottom I don't think anyone will be relegated, but don't quote me on that as I may have got it wrong.

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