Three spinners in Friday's team?

Do you think England might risk going into Friday's first ODI against India with 3 spinners (Patel, Borthwick, Swann) and only 2 front-line seamers + Bopara, in the team?
Personally I think it might be a risk worth taking.
Thoughts?

I was thinking exactly the same hoggy. Dernbach and Bresnan backed up by Bopara + 3 spinners should be perfect on a spin friendly pitch.

Cook (C)
Kieswetter (WK)
Trott
KP
Bairstow
Bopara
Bresnan
Swann
Borthwick
Dernbach
Finn

Bresnan can bat 7 in odi cricket, and the indian attack isnt great..

Bresnan and finn to open the bowling, dernbach first change..and then swanny and borthwick, with kp and bopara also bowling..

thats 7 bowling options.

I wouldn't trust Bresnan at 7. He's a no. 8 at best. Patel must play IMO.

As a follower of the county scene and, in particular, Surrey, I'll flag that the CB40 was won last month by a side regularly playing five spinners in the tournament (Batty, Schofield, Spriegel, Ansari and Hamilton-Brown).

This approach was roundly criticised at outset but proved highly effective with a spinner often opening the bowling.

I'm not saying three spinners should be used on Friday by England (I'm not convinced by Patel and obviously Borthwick will find India a far harder challenge) but it would be wrong to rule it out because it's not the norm.

i agree guildford...

borthwick is class bowling in a powerplay, and patel showed against the west indies that can he bowl in a powerplay as well.

Ideal scenario would be the 3 spinners although it's difficult given the players England have. Borthwick is inexperienced and Patel has still much to prove. It'll either work brilliantly or be a complete disaster I think.

And Bresnan is too high at 7.

liverbnz wrote:Ideal scenario would be the 3 spinners although it's difficult given the players England have. Borthwick is inexperienced and Patel has still much to prove. It'll either work brilliantly or be a complete disaster I think.

And Bresnan is too high at 7.

Agree it might backfire. But then the seam bowling attack is hardly experienced and also still has something to prove IMHO.
Just think that England's inexperienced/something to prove spinners are more likely to get something out of the pitch than England's inexperienced/something to prove seamers.

Valid point Hoggy although I would argue that Finn and Derbach have more experience in the international arena than Borthwick and Patel.

liverbnz wrote:Valid point Hoggy although I would argue that Finn and Derbach have more experience in the international arena than Borthwick and Patel.

True. But not by much.

i think bresnan is perfectly capable of batting 7 in the order.

Bresnan isn't a number 7 in ODI cricket. He is a 8 at best. Hence Samit Patel has to play really. I'm not a massive fan of Borthwick as it is and am not sure how much damage he will do against world class players of spin so I would leave him out and go with Finn, Dernbach, Bresnan, Swann and Patel + Bopara as my bowling attack. Plenty of batting, and plenty of bowling.

If they go in with 3 spinners, it leaves them short of PP bowlers for the first 15 overs if you assume Dernbach will bowl 6 overs at the death and Bresnan about 3 and ideally you want them to bowl in bursts in the middle overs aswell. So I think you always have to play three, near enough, front line seamers. With 2, maybe 3 spinners. The Surrey side that won the CB40 were lucky enough to have spinners that batted like RHB, Andsari, Spreigel and even Schofield isn't shabby. England don't have the same luxury.

So three spinners, not for me.

My side:

Cook
Kieswetter
Trott
KP
Bairstow
Bopara
Patel
Bresnan
Swann
Finn
Dernbach


Which is what I think the selectors will go with aswell.

Tend to agree with you here, jdizzle. Borthwick is a promising player, but does he strike fear into the heart of the likes of Raina and Dhoni? Wouldn't bet on it.

Exactly Fists. CF, you say Borthwick bowls well in a PP but can you imagine Raina launching into him in the last 10? Likes Fists says, it would be brutal.

guys he has to be given a chance at some point, and he is in form, if we never give him a go we will never find out.

No point chucking him in the deep end though is it. I definitely wouldn't bowl him in the powerplay. Kohli, Raina, Dhoni & Gambhir would destroy him unless he gets it perfect.

either way he has to be given a go in the side, or we will never know anything about him, and he is in form.

We gave Rashid a go in the side in South Africa. He got destroyed by Smith and Bosman. He hasn't been in the side. We can debate that there are other reasons for this, but that mauling he received played a part.

jdizzle, that was in south africa in t20, on a un helpul pitch. Im talking about odi's on a helpful pitch.

Pitches where 350 is not an uncommon score, and where 300 would be par. Playing a green leg spinner against the best players of spin in the world would be suicide for Borthwick's confidence. All credit to him if he plays and does well, but I just don't see it. I think he will get murdered by Raina, Dhoni et al.

well we have to give him a chance or we will never know, and he is clearly in form.

There's a difference in knowing when it is giving someone a chance and when it is sending them on a hiding to nothing. I suspect he will get one game at least in this series, and that should be it unless he performs exceptionally. It is a skill knowing when to blood young talent, and this is not the time for Borthwick.

he took 5 wickets, i would say that is an exceptional performance...

i know it was against weaker opposition, but at least he's in form.

Looking at the standard of opposition, it isn't that exceptional. You don't pick someone if they take 5 wickets against a county side, in essence that is what Hyderbad were (if not worse). It's good that he has some form, but not enough to force his way in I am afraid.

You blood talent when it's good enough. I don't believe in all this nurturing talent rubbish (and if you speak to players they don't believe in it either): whenever you throw him in, they'll be arguments against it. Think positively, if he bowls well, what will that do for his confidence? The guy is bowling well, clearly on form, and deserves a shot. To say "nope pal, I think if we pick you you may get slaughtered and this'll destroy your career" is every bit as bad. If he gets tonked around then if he's any good he'll learn from it and come back stronger. Rashid hasn't and this reflects on him rather than on the decision to pick him.

what do u mean to force his way in?

he's a better spinner than patel, he can probably bat better than patel, he's better in the field than patel, and the selectors like him, he was training, with gooch, flower and mushy all summer, so they must like him..

i think he will play the first odi


also bairstow scored 100 of 50 balls does this mean it wasnt excpetional, is he not forcing his way in?

Is he in our best XI though? Not for me. He unbalances the side if he comes in, presumably for Patel as it is unlikely we will play 3 spinners and 2 seamers. If he played for Finn or Dernbach then that would maintain the batting balance, but two seamers is the wrong way to go. Patel is a better batter than Borthwick at the moment and a more reliable spinner (takes less wickets but goes for less runs on average) so he plays above him. There is no point playing him for the sake of playing him, make him compete for his place. He isn't good enough for the first XI in the first ODI so don't pick him.

Re. Bairstow, he was in the side for the last ODI we played and he performed so he is the man in possession and needs to be moved. Borthwick is forcing his way in.

JD

Has Patel earned his place?

Maybe three spinners could be tried later in the series. I would rather us see how the pitches are playing and how successful Swann and Patel are before changing our tactics.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:JD

Has Patel earned his place?

Yes, if performance at county level counts for anything.

england tend to be a bit conservative with team selections so i think its highly unlikely we will see borthwick playing on friday

and cf90 when you make statements like borthwick is probably a better batsman than patel it does sort of undermine the rest of your comments

Shanky, Patel hasn't been particularly great but he has done enough to retain his place for now as there is no-one better for that second spinner/batsman role. And like Hoggy says, his county performances have earned him an extended run in the side.

i'm not a big fan of trying to pick players based on pre-determined roles, ie patel getting picked because england want to have a batting all-rounder who can play as second spinner, and at this point in time i am unconvinced about whether patel is international class.

having said that if patel can show he is able to perform at this level he could be a very good asset for us going forward and on that basis i think its worth taking the chance of giving him a run.

You do have to do that to an extent though. It's no use having great players if they won't fit together and balance you as a side. Patel, at the moment, is the man best fitted to the role England see as their number 7 so he should get an extended run to prove himself!

i'm not dismissing team balance at all , i just dont agree with picking someone who isn't good enough just because he maybe fits a profile

patel should be given the chance to prove he is good enough tho as the potential benefits if he can justify his place outweigh any risks

Oh yeah, if it is a choice between a good player and an average player then you pick the good player regardless of if the other guy "fits" better. But in this case, Fat Sam hasn't set the world alight but he has been solid and deserves a run in the side for his county form and current form. Borthwick hasn't done enough to get in ahead of him yet for me, so Samit plays!

Samit doesnt have the variations of Scotty.Borthwick has got a very good googly,good changes in pace and gets more drift,turn and bounce and unlike Rashid he is pretty accurate.
Samit bowls darts and is way too predictable and Indians would hammer such bowling.
As far as his batting is concerned,Bresnan has a better ODI batting record.So I dont understand why Bresnan would be too high at 7 whereas Samit would be perfect according to you.

What has he ever done?

He is reliable?solid?Give me a break.He has an ODI economy rate nearing 6 and the last time he toured India his economy rate was nearly 10 over 5 matches.Not very reliable,is it?

An economy rate of over 9,nearly 10 in 5 matches,not one or two matches.
Utterly Pathetic and from what I have seen of him in county cricket his bowling hasnt improved at all since then.In fact,he bowls even less nowadays than he used to for Notts.

A couple of good matches on a pitch that was turning absolutely square against a WI side who made Pakistan's part timer Mohd Hafeez look like Shane Warne when they played him doesnt prove anything other than the fact that the West Indies are hopeless against spin.

did you really need three consecutive posts on the subject shanks

we get it you dont like patel

this ranting about players you dont like is really tedious tbh

you keep quoting stats without context shanks , you ignore the fact that he has only actually played 8 ODI innings and most of those hes came on when we have needed quick runs

you ignore the fact that in the recent ODIs he played against india that a couple were rain affected and basically t20s

and those games against india were quite a while ago and resulted in him getting dropped , hes matured and improved as a player since then but lets ignore all that as well

as i said above i am far from convinced hes good enough for international cricket but lets give him a chance

the guys got a pretty decent domestic record to support him playing as an all-rounder , borthwick hasn't played anywhere near enough game for his stats to mean anything but hes far from being considered an all-rounder

every time you go one one of these rants you completely ignore team balance , you ignore the fact that in ODI cricket we need multi-dimensional players and you ignore the fact the selectors and management are in a much better position to judge players than we are

you come across as someone with ADD who gets bored with players after they have played a few games and consistely want new faces brought into the team to satisfy your attention span

if you picked the team we would have 20-30 new caps a year and would never win a game

we have a strict policy of selection wherein fielding and running between the wkts are a major criteria which is why owais shah was dropped in the first place.
if that criteria no longer exists bring back owais to the t20 side as he is the best player of spin in england and next t20 wc will be on turning tracks.

tomorrow's pitch is gonna be slow and low, 3 spinners would be ideal.