Young Players To Build New Team Around

Just something to take my mind off Saturday and calm my nerves.

Gatland has (by chance in some cases) found some top notch players to build and develop our team around - Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton, Priestland, Sc Willimas and North added with the still young Roberts Hook, Davies and Halfpenny.

SO looking to the future who is there in other teams that you think your team should be built around as a neutral for me:

England - Despite some in different form I think the likes of Lawes, Croft, Youngs and Tuilagi ate the ones MJ now needs to concentrate on, should he chance his arm and give Lawes the captaincy.

Scotland - Ritchie Grey, Jackson, Ansbro, Evans

Ireland - Healy, Sexton, Fitzgerald, Earls, and Spence whose name seems to crop up a lot amongst posters.

They are the ones as a neutral I come up with, so who else is out there.

Sexton isn't that young he turns 27 years of age in July.

rs,

Never, I didn't realise that, let say ROG retires after the WC or at latest next 6 Nations whose next in line to challenge Sexton?

should he chance his arm and give Lawes the captaincy.

I'd say probabley not. Give it to Croft as he's more experienced and has been in the team longer (at 25 Croft isn't really young either). Lawes should be left to concentrate on nailing down his place in the team and developing a partnership with one of Parling, Robson or Attwood. Englands biggest problem is finding a combative openside as we lacked something at the breakdown. Organisationally well... that could take years.

Wales have a pretty good side these days and a great captain in Warburton, perhaps some tweaking in the second row and bringing on one of the several talented young scrum halfs will be needed to continue the teams momentum but it's not the greatest of issues and Gatland must be feeling smug.

Scotland have a great pack and decent 9s but what goes on behind that is a bit of a mess. A new backs coach should be a priority before team building recommences.

Ireland badly need to address their aging midfield and second row and decide just how they are going to play. Seemed in the RWC they couldn't decide whether to go with the Leinster style all power and mobility route or the Munster tactical kicking and set piece targeting approach. The mish mash of both didn't work. On the upside they have luxuaries applenty in the backrow and a decent front row and that will allow them to gain a foot hold in any game.

A good team needs a strong spine. So if your building a young team make sure the spine is strong.... so

England
2: Hartley lost his place to Thomo, but needs to reclaim this spot with some big performances. He would then also be my captain.

5: Lawes lost his spot, but is still a work in progress. I'd like to see him with a few extra stone of muscle on him, to enhance his role as the powerhouse enforcer role

8: The one questionable position. Fearns is getting a lot of chat abou him..if he's playing their for bath put him in. Other wise we need a yonug 8 who will be there for the long term.

10: Toby Flood, has proved he is capable of getting the backline working. Needs challengers...Farrell?

12: Move Tuilagi to 12 where his skills suit, and bring in one of the numerous young 13's coming through Trinder, Lowe etc.

15: Foden...quality.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

should he chance his arm and give Lawes the captaincy.

I'd say probabley not. Give it to Croft as he's more experienced and has been in the team longer (at 25 Croft isn't really young either). Lawes should be left to concentrate on nailing down his place in the team and developing a partnership with one of Parling, Robson or Attwood. Englands biggest problem is finding a combative openside as we lacked something at the breakdown. Organisationally well... that could take years.

I really don't think Croft would be a good choice of captain. I wouldn't necessarily mind it being someone who isn't their club captain, but I'm really not sure he's a leader at all. Always goes missing in the really physical games. If Robshaw could nail a starting spot then I'd go for him, but he doesn't have enough experience for that yet.

I'd say that Easter, Moody, Wilkinson, Tindall, Thompson, Sheridan and Shaw are unlikely to play for England again, or at least not for much longer. When they go I don't really see who the natural leaders in the squad are.

bedfordwelsh wrote:rs,

Never, I didn't realise that, let say ROG retires after the WC or at latest next 6 Nations whose next in line to challenge Sexton?

Ian Keatley - he played at Connacht for several years. Munster have now signed him and he has been fantastic so far this year. 24 years old, been capped by Ireland twice. He's more of a running flyhalf than O'Gara is, but has an excellent boot from the kicking tee.

If Robshaw could nail a starting spot then I'd go for him

At the live games I saw Robshaw captain last season he played well but his manner around the referee was poor in both. Moans and whines far to much and in both games it got to the point where the ref wouldn't speak to him. I'd like to see him in the squad though as his tough tackling nature would bring something to our defence. Croft has experience of captaining Tigers and I disagree that he goes missing, that is a sweeping generalisation. If Hartley could maintain his place in the side he would be a good choice as captain but his international form hasn't been great.

12: Move Tuilagi to 12 where his skills suit, and bring in one of the numerous young 13's coming through Trinder, Lowe etc.

It's an option but with the form of Barritt I'd like to see him given a go in the 12 shirt first and paired with Manu that midfield would have plenty of power and pace.

Yeah Hartleys form has not been great...he needs some big performances. Other challengers...Gray at Quins?

Barritt and Tuilagi would certainly offer plenty of power and pace....

Max Evans is 28.

The key young players (25 or below) in Scotland are:

Murray Low - tighthead
Richie Gray - lock
Grant Gilchrist - lock
Rob Harley - flanker
David Denton - number 8
Duncan Weir - fly half
Rhuriadh Jackson - fly half/centre (hopefully)
Joe Ansbro - centre/wing
Mark Bennett - centre/wing
Lee Jones - wing
Stuart Hogg - fullback

Big future ahead of these guys I think. The current side is actually pretty young though, so I think most of these guys (with a few notable exceptions) are probably a couple of years away from making an impact on the international scene.

I think Gray of Quins and Webber at Wasps would be good options both a powerful and mobile in the loose and fairly reliable at the set piece. They are the right age to be developed by the England coaches and brought on could give us genuinely good options at hooker.

Be interesting to see if Tom Youngs can take the Tigers 2 shirt off of Chuter, early signs are positive but he doesn't have the AP experience of the other two but as an England under 20 international at centre he would bring good lines and good hands to the loose play. Needs to cement his position at club level first.

I'd like to see Rhys Webb fight for the 9 shirt, I think hes been playing pretty well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:At the live games I saw Robshaw captain last season he played well but his manner around the referee was poor in both. Moans and whines far to much and in both games it got to the point where the ref wouldn't speak to him. I'd like to see him in the squad though as his tough tackling nature would bring something to our defence. Croft has experience of captaining Tigers and I disagree that he goes missing, that is a sweeping generalisation. If Hartley could maintain his place in the side he would be a good choice as captain but his international form hasn't been great.

On Robshaw, I don't know which games you're referring to but you are right that he has had problems talking to the referee. It was his first season as captain though, and he improved a lot as the season went on. His work rate is incredible as well, which I think is very important for the captain. For what it's worth I think Johnson rates him in that respect as well, as he's captained the Saxons a lot, as well as the midweek team in Australia.

Croft is brilliant for Tigers, but for England there are far too many games where you barely even realise he was there. I'm not trying to make a sweeping generalisation. He has played well for England before. I just don't think that he shows up enough in the really tight matches to be captain.

Yeah ill be watching the progress of Tom Youngs...especially how he goes in the set pieces...the main role of a hooker.

Its interesting how Croft is dividing the masses at the moment...

As a neutral I don't rate Croft too highly.. I think England would do better with the likes of Robshaw at 6.

I rate Croft highly, he has many skills - pace, handling, lineout etc. And i think he does do work at the breakdown.

He showed with the Lions that in the right balance of a pack he can be a potent weapon.

Im just questioning that at the moment the balance of our pack is so wrong, that we arent allowing him to play to his skills or strengths, which in turn is weakening the pack.

I have a feeling Ulster will be feeding the National team for years to come from what I've seen. Perhaps Keatley will be at out-half? Doesn't seem to be many props for Ireland though, perhaps an issue?

Morgann - at tight head the next two in line are Jamie Hagan (Leinster) and Stephen Archer (Munster). Neither seem likely to be world class but both could do a job. Similarly at loosehead Ulster's Paddy McAllister looks set to challenge Cian Healy in a while. Those 3 look good bets to a earn a chance internationally.

I see. They may not seem world class but staying and learning everything they can at their Provinces may change that. THe provincial teams will remain strong. Your national team could be in for a transitional year or two but to me it is very evident the team needs changes. The win over Aus was just a bit of gloss over a poor season (4 from 4 going into the RWC and not getting bonus point wins Versus USA/Italy spring to mind here).

Yeah ill be watching the progress of Tom Youngs...especially how he goes in the set pieces...the main role of a hooker.

I agree fully, no point having an ultra dynamic hooker who can't hit his jumpers and struggles in the scrum. So far, however, so good he looks to improve the scrum when he comes on and looks reliable at the lineout. Cameo appearences off of the bench aren't going to prove that to the England management and we'll need to see him do the business for the majority of 80 mins before we're all fully convinced.

Doesn't seem to be many props for Ireland though, perhaps an issue?

I'd think the more pressing issue is who is going to make up the second row. The current second row selections are 30+ and there's not been a lot of caps given out to the younger guys coming through. I have heard good things about Nagle and Toner is menace at the lineout but they are untested on the international scene.

Again surprised to see how old Max Evans is.

As for Welsh No9s and with a bit of bias here hope Wayne Evans pushes on now and gets himself in position to compete for Squad place.

Toner is a big lump who'll be a decent squad player for Leinster and no more.He doesn't look likely to make it beyond being a decent Pro 12 level player.
I hope I'm wrong but anytime I've seen him play he's been either okay or poor,I've never seen him play a really big game yet.

Don't forget about Rhys Webb either bedford. Assuming Gatland doesn't pick Mike Phillips post RWC that leaves us with Lloyds Williams, Webb and Wayne Evans for the jersey(two without caps but it worked to our benefit before the world cup ). I never rated to Knoyle as scrum half and glad Gatland is finally seeing the light.

Toner is a big lump who will be a useless squad player for Leinster. Physically he is massive - one of the tallest men in world rugby and 19 stone. Thats great on paper but he's anomymous when he plays.

Morgan - it was a poor year alright. I suspect we'll see change and soul searching will be done.

Lol you really don't rate him Stag.

I think you're being harsh but it's not worth debating.He's never going to be great.

Morganwg,

Why wouldn't he pick Phillips? Yes he's playing in France but he never said he wouldn't pick players outside Wales just it would make it more difficult.

He's not near retirement age yet either.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Max Evans is 28.

The key young players (25 or below) in Scotland are:

Murray Low - tighthead
Richie Gray - lock
Grant Gilchrist - lock
Rob Harley - flanker
David Denton - number 8
Duncan Weir - fly half
Rhuriadh Jackson - fly half/centre (hopefully)
Joe Ansbro - centre/wing
Mark Bennett - centre/wing
Lee Jones - wing
Stuart Hogg - fullback

Big future ahead of these guys I think. The current side is actually pretty young though, so I think most of these guys (with a few notable exceptions) are probably a couple of years away from making an impact on the international scene.

Think you could expand the list by adding Barclay (25) - flanker, Rennie (25) - flanker, poss Vernon (24) - no.8, Beattie (25) - no.8, Welsh (24) - loosehead, Wilson (22) - no.8, Laidlaw (26 today, happy birthday Greig) - scrumhalf, Scott (21) - centre, Leonard (20) - flyhalf/centre, Visser (24) - wing, & Brown (21) fullback?

Rennie and Vernon, I knew there were couple I was thinking of just couldn't rememebr their names.

Not wanting to start another Lions thread but the back row battle for those slots in 2013 will be huge.

I really don't. He has over 50 appearances for Leinster, he has been capped for Ireland internationally and I can see nothing to his game except his size which he doesn't use correctly.

Compare him to Andies Bekker - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQIt_GRipzI

Only one year older than Toner.

Yeah I'm not arguing that he'll ever be even Heineken Cup standard I just don't think he's the complete waste of space you obviously do.
The fact he has played for Irealnd does however show just how little depth we have at lock,it's worrying.

True that ASLS!!

I don't think we have to worry about our second rows just yet.. Touhy looks like he will be playing in green soon, POC will probably be with us for a good few more years and Ryan is also showing good form. DOC will still be floating about also of course. Hopefully Nagle will prove to be a great second row in years to come.

I haven't been impressed with Toner myself, but I would like to see him progress. What other young potential second rows come to mind?

I think too much is made of Nagle personally. I actually think a less heralded second row like Dave O'Callaghan or Dave Foley are likely to make the step up. I also like Andrew Browne of Connacht.

Honestly I have seen very little of Nagle and I am going by what other people have been saying. Dave O'Callaghan was the flanker for munster at the weekend correct? If so, I thought he had a really great game.

Yea he was. He is one of these guys that playes second/back row - like Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha O'Callaghan in their youth. I think he's a good player only 21 and I think willl see a lot of gametime.

If Munster mean to continue where the finished off last year with D.Ryan at 6, then this guy is a good backup to have.

I've seen O'Callaghan play before, he's got a decent bit of pace from memory. I saw him play 6 and he looked good then. Chances of him getting much game time this season once the regulars return from the RWC?

I think he has an ok-ish chance.

- David Wallace has a long term injury at backrow.

- O'Connell and O'Callaghan will be wrapped in cotton wool after a long long season.

- He covers both lock and backrow so is a good candidate for the bench

As an outside it does seem that Ireland's biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness. The golden generation has really given Irish rugby a boost and they're strength has meant a very competitive national team and HEC success for two provinces, however, in certain areas there seems to be a real lack of youth development because icons of this golden age are ensconed within those shirts. Second row and the centres really need an overhaul despite the longevity of BOD he won't last forever and there really is nobody that would be called a successor in line. It's taken years for Ireland to find a replacement for O'Gara and even now it seems the national team struggle to trust in his successor.

What Irish youngsters would you tip to make an impact this season?

Irish Youngster I Would Tip for Impact this Season:

Paddy McAllister - Loosehead - Ulster

Mike Sherry - Hooker - Munster

Jamie Hagan - Tighthead - Leinster

Dave O'Callaghan - Lock - Munster

Andrew Browne - Lock - Connacht

Rhys Ruddock - Blindisde - Leister

Willie Faloon - Openside - Ulster

Peter O'Mahony - Number 8 - Munster

Paul O'Donoghue - Scrumhalf - Connacht

Ian Keatley - Flyhalf - Munster

Simon Zebo - Wing - Munster

Fergus McFadden - Centre - Leinster

Nevin Spence - Centre - Ulster

Craig Gilroy - Wing - Ulster

Andrew Conway - Fullback - Leinster

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Think you could expand the list by adding Barclay (25) - flanker, Rennie (25) - flanker, poss Vernon (24) - no.8, Beattie (25) - no.8, Welsh (24) - loosehead, Wilson (22) - no.8, Laidlaw (26 today, happy birthday Greig) - scrumhalf, Scott (21) - centre, Leonard (20) - flyhalf/centre, Visser (24) - wing, & Brown (21) fullback?

No the biggest fan of Welsh - he's been rubbish for a while and is well out of the Glasgow XV. Wouldn't call him a key young player. I wouldn't put Leonard down either - completely unproven (don't think he's started a game yet).

I think Tom Brown will ultimately loose out to Jim Thompson or Stuart Hogg. Also think Denton will eventually cut short Vernon's chances of being an international starting 8.

Agreed on Scott and Visser though, should have included them. Similarly Rennie and Barclay, who are going to jointly ensure we have an excellent openside for the next 6-8 years....which is nice.

Red Stag, what do you see the starting lineup to be for Munster when the internationals return? Also when does Felix Jones come back? He was one of my favourite players last season.

Most Irish players don't make the break through until their 23-24 anyway, only Conor Murray is under 24 in the Irish World Cup squad.

When we talk about "potential" World Class players for Ireland we are talking about veteran players in relation to Wales.

Sexton is what you may consider fairly new as he was first capped in 2009, though his Wales equivilent is James Hook who was first capped in 2005.
Sexton is actually 14 days older than Hook.

Wales always risk their players at far younger ages than Ireland tend to do.

AlynDavies wrote:Most Irish players don't make the break through until their 23-24 anyway, only Conor Murray is under 24 in the Irish World Cup squad.

Is there actually any basis for this? A lot of the current crop may have broken through later, but I doubt that's down to anything they're putting in the water. You need quite a large sample of players to draw any genuine conclusions like that.

tomathy wrote:Is there actually any basis for this? A lot of the current crop may have broken through later, but I doubt that's down to anything they're putting in the water. You need quite a large sample of players to draw any genuine conclusions like that.

#I think based on the comparative ages Gatland is generally more inclined to give very young players a chance, you only have to look at Tom Prydie who was called up at 17 and capped just as he turned 18, while George North was first capped at 18, Dan biggar was another who got capped just after his 19th borthday.
Throw in the likes of Toby Faletau who is only 20. Tavis Knoyle was capped at 20 against New Zealand, Scott williams is also 20, Sam Warburton was capped at 20, Bradley Davies was also 20, Hook was 20, Jamie roberts was also 20 I believe, so we certainly have a decent argument for throwing kids in much earlier than most countries.

The good thing is for Wales that as well as the clutch of youngsters in the current team, there is at least one sometimes two players in every position in their early 20s getting experince regionally and lookingas though they will add competition. The regional academy systems first real generation of players are now coming through. Maybe Moffett wasnt so bad after all

TycroesOsprey wrote:The good thing is for Wales that as well as the clutch of youngsters in the current team, there is at least one sometimes two players in every position in their early 20s getting experince regionally and lookingas though they will add competition. The regional academy systems first real generation of players are now coming through. Maybe Moffett wasnt so bad after all

I agree the academies are doing a fantastic job, though whats helping is the fact the regions are broke and have been forced to give players a chance as they cant compete for over the hill marquee signings from the southern hemisphere.

AlynDavies wrote:

tomathy wrote:Is there actually any basis for this? A lot of the current crop may have broken through later, but I doubt that's down to anything they're putting in the water. You need quite a large sample of players to draw any genuine conclusions like that.

#I think based on the comparative ages Gatland is generally more inclined to give very young players a chance, you only have to look at Tom Prydie who was called up at 17 and capped just as he turned 18, while George North was first capped at 18, Dan biggar was another who got capped just after his 19th borthday.
Throw in the likes of Toby Faletau who is only 20. Tavis Knoyle was capped at 20 against New Zealand, Scott williams is also 20, Sam Warburton was capped at 20, Bradley Davies was also 20, Hook was 20, Jamie roberts was also 20 I believe, so we certainly have a decent argument for throwing kids in much earlier than most countries.

You're right that Gatland may have a tendency towards younger players. My point is that these things only last as long as the particular coach or group of players. I doubt there's a cultural chasm between Wales and Ireland about when players get capped, and it could just be that Wales were in more of a position where rebuilding has been needed. Ireland have had the same core group of players for quite a while, so it's harder for new guys to break through. Wales are at a different stage of the cycle. Now that O'Gara/O'Driscoll/O'Callaghan/Murphy etc are reaching the end of their international careers we may see the same happen with Ireland as we have seen with Wales for the last couple of years.