Haye's trainer!

Working on the (massive) assumption that David Haye doesn't retire this week and all the talk of a fight with Vitali is genuine, should Haye switch training camps and, if so, who should he select?

Up until the fight with Wlad, Adam Booth's tactics were spot on. He knew what each opponent would bring and devised a suitable gameplan. Now, in fairness, I was stuck in a noisy pub watching the fight with Wlad and was unable to hear what was being said in the corner. I've no idea if Booth's tactics were flawed or if Haye simply choose to ignore his advice.

Someone elsewhere has mentioned Nazim Richardson citing his work with Shane Mosley. If you add his work with Hopkins you could argue Nazim is a great choice. He's another smart man who assesses opponents and comes up with sound gameplans. It's just a shame that in Mosley, he had a fighter unable to carry those plans out.

However, I'm not sure Nazim would come up with anything radically different to Booth with regard to a gameplan for facing Vitali. My belief is that, whilst Haye is a technically sound boxer who possesses all the fundamentals as well and youth, speed, relexes etc in recent times there appears to be some hesitation when I comes to "getting stuck in"

Therefore, my question would be, which trainer would be the best option for instilling Haye with enough self belief to push himself that bit further or is it simply a case that he is what he is?

Am not convinced changing trainers at this stage is that great an idea, am by no means saying Booth is the best man for the job but it takes a while for a new trainer to bed in and them to develop an understanding, given Haye, if he fights again is going straight into a tough fight rather than taking two or three progressively tougher fights may be a case of better the devil you know.

Trouble is Rowley, I think you, I and the rest of the boxing world now know Haye is unlikely to want to take two or three fights with a new man in order to forge a relationship and, if this is the case, it would suggest that he's also unwilling to make the necessary changes to his " fighting attitude" to try and secure a win over Vitali

For me the biggest problem for Haye has been his lack of output in rounds. His success has been about landing a few huge punches with dramatic effect. He would need to go back to basics and to beat the likes of Vitali or Wlad would require more punching especially to the body which, with a new trainer would need a couple of fights to bed in.

I know it is an easy choice, but Freddie Roach has done wonders with speedy boxers in recent times and would maximise David's natural speed advantages over the bigger men. However, just like with Manny and Khan, it would not happen over night and would need a couple of fights to get the best out of him.

Ideally taking out Povetkin and Helenius would put him in great shape to have a rematch with Wlad or go up against Vitali.

I can't remember whether I noticed it watching the fight or Booth actually mentioned it post-fight but Haye didn't seem to be listening to anything Booth said. Booth was trying to give him advice but it was like Haye new his Plan A was going to fail after the first 4-5 rounds and just mentally collapsed.

I don't think there is a great gameplan for facing the Klitschkos for somebody like Haye. It also wasn't just about tactics for me, to have been as far behind, as he must have known he was, and still not have a real go at it in the final 2-3 rounds is a real lack of desire.

Trott, I feel you're being a little harsh there as the 12th in particular I seem to remember him having a bit of a go.

I agree with Mikeymax, his output is a massive problem, particularly in a place like Germany. You've got to be busy for each minute of each round, not let an opponent like a Klitschko settle behind their jab, and mix up your attacks. Haye didn't do any of these and as such was never likely to win too many rounds.

It was me who suggested Nazim would be a good choice.

I agree he may not come up with something radically different, rather I believe his style would be more effective.

I got the impression from booth that they were perhaps too firendly for the job in hand, and that maybe David had too much of a say in what went on. As if they were equals rather than trainer and figher.

I think Nazeem would drill David better than he has been before and make him as prepared as possible, if nothing else through the discipline. He would also have none of he shenanigans Booth promotes with his mind games. Very much back to basics and a perfect execution of a plan.

Also having such a respected voice in camp all the way could do David's confidence and belief massive amounts of good. He seemed to have it sapped from him against wlad when plan A didnt work.

I think Roach is an interesting one and it would maybe build Haye up a bit in the U.S. I dont know what the big deal is regarding fighting 3 or 4 ranked contenders before Vitali.

If Haye went to the U.S with Roach and took on the likes of Arreola etc and blasted them out then it wouldnt be long before the mindless majority sit up and start buying maybe.

Haye has the looks and the brains to achieve quite a lot more.

Then after he has adjusted himself to a few new tactics, then maybe they can divise a masterplan for the big Iron Chinned lad.

But all this, will he / won't he just reminds me of Hatton / Naseem etc. And unless Haye takes the sport serious then I couldn't give a monkeys. But he needs about 1-2 years of solid "proper" fights and training first.

Fists of Fury wrote:Trott, I feel you're being a little harsh there as the 12th in particular I seem to remember him having a bit of a go.

I agree with Mikeymax, his output is a massive problem, particularly in a place like Germany. You've got to be busy for each minute of each round, not let an opponent like a Klitschko settle behind their jab, and mix up your attacks. Haye didn't do any of these and as such was never likely to win too many rounds.

Said it yourself for me there mate "a bit of a go" is hardly enough after 11 rounds of pretty much nothing when you have everything on the line, is it?

Well, absolutely but Wlad's persistent holding didn't help his cause in that final round. Just used all of his experience to run down the clock.

Haye for all his charisma is a one dimensional fighter. He relies on the bingo punch so much and does not have much else boxing wise. I know some of you will say that against Valuev he showed he could box but to be honest hit and run is about as much as any fighter would do against the giant. So for Haye to switch trainers would mean learning other qualities of the sport and not just looking for the big punch.

Does anyone think Haye has the patience to work with someone like Richardson or Roach? I don't either. No Haye is better off with Booth who knows Hayes strengths and will know how to utilise them.

He must have known that leaving it until the last round, that Wlad would employ those tactics. He would of known he would have needed a knockout from the end of round 9. Did he think Wlad would just let him have a pop for his Cinderella ending? Not a novice fighter to be that naive is he. To me it was a lack of desire .

Bigger question for me would be who's his conditioner? Yes, he 'looks' great in terms of physical condition but he has had issues with gassing and constantly appears to never throw caution to the wind and let his hands go.

Does he gas easily? I reckon so. Is there anything apparently wrong with how he fights when he throws? Nope. Would better stamina help? Probably.

But i'm not David Haye (wouldn't want to be as my life would be borderline over with that horrific toe injury) so wouldn't know if that's a huge problem. Didn't even let it go big time against human punchbag Ruiz though.

coxy0001 wrote:Bigger question for me would be who's his conditioner? Yes, he 'looks' great in terms of physical condition but he has had issues with gassing and constantly appears to never throw caution to the wind and let his hands go.

Does he gas easily? I reckon so. Is there anything apparently wrong with how he fights when he throws? Nope. Would better stamina help? Probably.

But i'm not David Haye (wouldn't want to be as my life would be borderline over with that horrific toe injury) so wouldn't know if that's a huge problem. Didn't even let it go big time against human punchbag Ruiz though.

He let his hands go against Enzo but I agree he does seem gun shy when it comes to throwing combos but like I said he has ko power and always looks for the big punch.

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think Haye's tactics against Wlad were all that bad. On paper at least, they made sense.
Haye will stay out of range, avoid taking serious damage while using his speed and movement to create openings were he could catch Wlad with some of his own shots.

However, I just think that Wlad's jab and defence were better than anticipated (a common post-fight comment by many of Wlad's victims) and Haye just couldnt get his attacks going.

Simply put, Haye was against a better opponent and was just over-matched. Regardless of what the early predictions were, it was never a 50-50 fight. It was a fight in which Wlad was the clear favourite but with Haye having a good punchers chance.

I'm not sure if a change in coach would make any real difference. Haye will still want to fight in the manner he's most comfortable with; a KO artist that uses raid attacks to over-whelm his opponents. He'll struggle to develop a more orthodox style at the age and level he's at.

I also disagree with Barry McGuigan who claimed that Haye should continue given that some HW's blossum in their 30's. This might be true for the likes of Lewis and the Klitschko's, who use size and physical strength as well as tactical science. However, for a boxer that relies on speed and reflexes like Haye, I'd imagine he'll more likely struggle as his age increases.

If he'd used a solid jab instead of looking for a big, looping right hand he'd have landed a lot more. The first half of the Wlad fight showed he has the speed and reflexes to avoid his punches, but he didn't have the time to throw. I think if he'd thrown out a quick jab it could have helped. Haye doesn't need a new trainer, just a new gameplan. For me he would still be the best of the rest.

The problem is haye doesn't train for endurance or high output, he does no roadwork, just sprints and other short distance training designed to sharpen the fast twitch fibres and improve his speed and explosiveness. All well and good, but if you go fight a klitschko in Germany you need to be busy to get anything on the cards - which he wasn't. Failing that you need to fight in bursts and land the quick, explosive combos you've trained for to get the stoppage - which he didn't. Hayes style is all about conserving energy and forcing the KO, but I really don't see that working against vitali - conserving energy just equates to a points loss for not being busy enough, and he'd have to land the mother of all punches just to stagger vitali (if a behemoth with Lewis's power couldn't do it then I seriously doubt haye can). Looks an impossible task to me, and I don't think changing trainers for one fight at this late stage of his career is gonna harvest instant results - Rocky III this is not!

I pretty much agree with j benson. Short of launching himself at Wlad from the outset to look for the quick KO and hope to get lucky, what else was Haye going to do? He can't beat Wlad in a jabbing contest and catching too many of wlad's right hands would have finished him sooner.

Wlad's defence and athleticism were too much for Haye on the night and he couldn't land the big bomb flush. It doesn't necessarily mean it was the wrong tactics though.

I could see Haye catching Vitali with a lot more,( Vital sometimes carries his left hand low) than he did Wlad but not so sure how much effect his punch power would have,only chance Haye would have is if Vitali ages quickly, which is a very slim hope.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:The problem is haye doesn't train for endurance or high output, he does no roadwork, just sprints and other short distance training designed to sharpen the fast twitch fibres and improve his speed and explosiveness. All well and good, but if you go fight a klitschko in Germany you need to be busy to get anything on the cards - which he wasn't. Failing that you need to fight in bursts and land the quick, explosive combos you've trained for to get the stoppage - which he didn't. Hayes style is all about conserving energy and forcing the KO, but I really don't see that working against vitali - conserving energy just equates to a points loss for not being busy enough, and he'd have to land the mother of all punches just to stagger vitali (if a behemoth with Lewis's power couldn't do it then I seriously doubt haye can). Looks an impossible task to me, and I don't think changing trainers for one fight at this late stage of his career is gonna harvest instant results - Rocky III this is not!

I'm not sure Haye could stagger Vitali if he hit him with the corner stool.

As others have said... not sure what Booth's instructions were during the last fight, but I'm pretty sure Haye wasn't following them. Unless he was being told to swing wildly, telegraphing so much that Wlad had time to step backwards, causing him to repeatedly fall over.

Booth gets a hard time because some view him as smug, think he's a good guy with a good head on his shoulders, he can do only so much, the rest s on Haye.

Im more inclined to think its just far more difficult to break Wlad down than is suspected. Virtually all his opponents, sparring partners trainers etc say the same thing. Its easy to predict how he will fight but just so difficult to break it down. The pair of Klitschkos are far better at controlling range and distance (and the fight by extension) than the are generall credited for. I believe Wlads jab is up there with the best of them. In all the Klitschkos collective fights - nearing 100 now, Sanders is the only one to have ever been ahead on the cards at the end of one of their fights which I think gives an indication of how difficult their style is to crack. Ok the opposition may not be all time greats but their round winning percentage is enormous.

I think Haye just found like most of the others that having a plan and executing are very difficult when your opponent doesnt give you a foothold in the fight. Basically I think its down to Wlad being too good rather than Haye/Booth.

Vitali is a slightly different kettle of fish and I think can be goaded into a real fight which gives HAye some form of a chance to use his quickness while Vit's opening up.. Only way i can see Haye doing him, Re: Wlad I think you're correct, he's far better than people give him credit for and so awkwardly effective, let's not forget Wlad has dramatically improved (In my eyes) since Sanders and is a force to be reckoned with even if most don't think he stands up to anyone good...

Think the author writes up Haye too much. Can't see why he has sound fundmentals when he can't box behind the jab properly.

Don't think I do write him up too much here. As stated by other posters, Haye could conceivably be considered "the best of the rest" which would tend to suggest he isn't that bad a fighter...just a shame his attitude tends to sour most people on him.

Seems people are prepared to overlook certain things if a fighter is "a nice guy"

Best of the rest though is a long way behind the Ks. Besides not sure if he is best of the rest. His showing against Wlad was only marginally better than the showings of the likes of Chambers and Ibragimov. If he is best of rest then it's by a negligible amount. I think retirement is his best option to be honest.