Is the Aviva Premiership stopping England from developing?

First off I want to say that I'm not pretending to have the answers to this question, these are simply my thoughts on the issues facing England at the moment.

We appear to have a thriving academy system with a lot of very talented young players turning out for England in the U20, U18, etc. and the results for those age grades over the last few years demonstrates that we are competitive and are regularly getting top 4 or top 2 finishes in most competitions. It has been commented that these players seem to dissappear off the face of the earth when they make the transition to senior rugby.

Not quite true that one, most of the players end up taking contracts in the Championship or the bottom end of the Premiership.

Money talks. For the English clubs, they are in the majority ltd companies, privately owned and are first and foremost businesses, in the business of making money. What makes the money for these clubs in merchandising, then sponsorship deals and then bums on seats for major competitions.

In order to make the money, clubs need to be competing at the highest level, and that means Europe. Why should any club take on these young academy players (and many do) when they can buy an established name who may be a draw, may attract sponsorship and may improve shirt sales etc but is going to do a safe job for you.

This is at best a shortcut to the top table, at worst it ignoring your natural resources.

Now.... I'm not having a pop at Saracens here, they are just one of many examples... Sarries spent years in the doldrums, but they got some solid backing behind them and started to buy in the players. Now they are competitive, now they are making money and they are at the top table. They have some fantastic young English players who will never get any significant game time, and therefore experiance, recognition and ergo England duties because they are on the bench all the time or playing in reserve fixtures.

My beloved Tigers are similar, but I do believe we do push through our academy players more. Which is why we have constantly hovered around near the top end of the table.

But why would any club cut it's own financial throat to risk losing top table rugby by bringing through Academy players en-mass? So they come through in dribs & drabs. The rest get lost, forgotten and move on to other clubs in the premiership.

Winning gets attention. Because the top sides are winning their players get shuffled up to the top of the pile for England selection, but it's a pretty shallow pot at times to be picking from.

I hate to say it but I do like models like Gloucester who rely heavily on their academy players, with a sprinkling of old heads to steady the boat, but because Glaws are up and down the table like GG's zipper whenever he sees McCaw I don't think their players and other clubs players always get the recognition they deserve.

What do I think we should do?

1. Cap foreign players more than we do currently.
2. Increase funding from the RFU to the clubs for playing Academy Players.
3. Start a "draft" from the top academys like Heartpury college & Loughborough Uni to get new players into 1st team squads across the clubs.

Unfortunately we would end up in the european wilderness for a few years (which is why most clubs will reject this) but in the long run we would have far, far more young English players getting top level rugby making England stronger & stronger.

Metal Tiger that's not necessarily true. Our academy has only started to really churn out players recently. Also you just have to look at the U18s and U20s to see us pulling our weight. There is no need to rush players in because then they are simply out of their depth.

The Saracens youngsters have been given an opportunity to shine with the world cup on. The following youngsters have started for us in at least one match - Owen Farrell,James Short,Jamie George,George Kruis,Jackson Wray and Will Fraser.

Other youngsters who have had gametime are Mako Vunipola and Harry Spencer,Duncan Taylor.

Most have been in the 23 almost every game. None at all have looked out of their depth. As the youngsters are surrounded by quality they are bedded in.

With so many games to go through in the season everyone will be get a go.


I do agree with your suggestions though.

Metal,

I do think its rugby in general now (well certanly in England and to a degree in Wales)

My Region (the Dragons) and the Scarlets have been very good at bringing on youngsters but thats through neccessity due to finances more than anything else.

The Blues and Ospreys (until this season) tended to buy in rather than invest in the acadamies, which if they wanted to be competitive in the HC they had to do. Surely there was someone better out there in the Blues than SNK and Parks.

I have no objection with foreign players in team/regions/provinces BUT they have to be of the highest calibre and not just some average run of the mill player that is keeping an English/Welsh etc player out.

For eg Rush has been immense down at the Blues and I am sure Warburton has learnt from him, likewise King down at PYS has influenced Priestland and JD2 and Holah and Collins down at the Liberty.

It's a hard one to call these days because they are now a business and the HC is where the big money is and you need the best players to be competitive.

Is the increasing dominance of international rugby and the desire for Unions to see funds centralised with them ratehr than clubs a major threat to domestic rugby globally?
Yes.

No i dont think its stopping England.

All the academies are producing players, we are having a slight lull in the HC at the moment...we'll be back.

The problems is simply the coaches. We need to get rid of them all and bring in forward thinking coaches who will have England playing on the front foot, playing good rugby.

We have the players!

Just a question and not a WUM but I only watch Aviva highlights but how many of the Aviva sides have English No10s who you guys would say are currently good enough to get a shot at the English set up.

How much time did Hook and Preistland spen on the bench or playing other positions than 10 at their regions over the last year or so?

Peter,

Priestland played more than Jones last year due to Wellies being injured rested etc.

We all know Hook was messed around between here there and everywhere.

At least both were being kept out of the shirt by another Welsh player as opposed to overseas/foreign.

Its just I seem to remember a few seasons back a lot of the the then GP had more foreign 10s than English, has this changed?

Just a question and not a WUM but I only watch Aviva highlights but how many of the Aviva sides have English No10s who you guys would say are currently good enough to get a shot at the English set up..

AP first choice 10s (including new signing in Bath's case);

Bath - Donald (NZ)
Chiefs - Mieres (ARG)
Falcons - Gopperth (NZ)
Gloucester - Taylor (AUS?)
Irish - Bowden (NZ)
Northampton - Myler (ENG)
Tigers - Flood (ENG)
Sale - McLeod (WAL)
Wasps - Robinson (WAL)
Quins - Evan (NZ)
Sarries - Hodgson (ENG)
Worcester - Goode (ENG)

So only four first choice options are English though Gloucester, Sale and Sarries have promising second choice English fly halfs whilst Bath have two 10/12s who qualify though probabley aren't good enough. There are promising youngsters at Newcastle, Tigers and Bath that are getting game time but not always in their favourite position (Newcastle) but are a couple of years off of contention anyway.

The issue currently is that there isn't much in the way on incentives to bring through England internationals. The RFU are trying to address the balance by handing out more cash to clubs that promote young players to the first team but it's the first step of many that the RFU AND the PRL need to take in order to promote academies and the retention of England internationals.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Just a question and not a WUM but I only watch Aviva highlights but how many of the Aviva sides have English No10s who you guys would say are currently good enough to get a shot at the English set up.

The English 10s off the top of my head are Flood/Ford, Lamb/Myler, Taylor/Burns, Hodgson/Farrell, Goode. The only player who is being kept out by quality foreign 10s is Clegg behind Evans. All the rest are either pushing for it or just not good enough. You could say that playing a load of young average player regular will imporve them a bit but it would lower the over all quality of the league significantly.

Foreign 10s in the premiership (again off the top of my head) McCleod at Sale, Evans at Quins, Mieres (sp?) at Exeter, Robinson at Wasps, Goppath (sp?) at Newcastle, Bowden at Irish. Most of these sides has an EQ backup. So half are foreign but even with 6 EQ 10s playing regular that's more than the Welsh, Irish, Scottish, South African, New Zealand and Australia top sides could manage. they seem to handle it fine.

There are quite a few foruiegn 10s but theres still more englishmen playing week to week than there are welshmen playing in wales.
Even if 8 clubs started a foriegner there would stilbe 4 english FH's playing. The palyer numbers argument doenst stack up.

Its the quality of those players thats the issue.

Preistland only got his chance through injury, Hook couldnt get a start at 10. Kept out by sub standard welsh players.

Its easy to blame the foriegners, but it doesnt stack up. If Joe Ford isnt good enough to keep Jeremy Staunton out of the Tigers first XV then he isnt anywhere near good enough to win the world cup.

HammerofThunor wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Just a question and not a WUM but I only watch Aviva highlights but how many of the Aviva sides have English No10s who you guys would say are currently good enough to get a shot at the English set up.

The English 10s off the top of my head are Flood/Ford, Lamb/Myler, Taylor/Burns, Hodgson/Farrell, Goode. The only player who is being kept out by quality foreign 10s is Clegg behind Evans. All the rest are either pushing for it or just not good enough. You could say that playing a load of young average player regular will imporve them a bit but it would lower the over all quality of the league significantly.

Foreign 10s in the premiership (again off the top of my head) McCleod at Sale, Evans at Quins, Mieres (sp?) at Exeter, Robinson at Wasps, Goppath (sp?) at Newcastle, Bowden at Irish. Most of these sides has an EQ backup. So half are foreign but even with 6 EQ 10s playing regular that's more than the Welsh, Irish, Scottish, South African, New Zealand and Australia top sides could manage. they seem to handle it fine.

Excellent post, but you did miss Staunton at Tigers (second choice behind flood, ahead of ford)

Geordiefalcon I have to agree with you.

bedfordwelsh Saracens have Charlie Hodgson and Owen Farrell.

I am just going to throw some names out of some English youngsters

Props:Vunipola,Beech,Marler
Hooker:George.
2nd row: Kitchener,Kruis, Slater
Backrow:Fearns,Wray,Gray,Fraser,Wallace,Saull,Vunipola, York,Launchbury
Scrum half:Spencer,Simpson
Fly half:Farrell,Ford,Clegg
Centres:Lowe,JTH,Joseph
Wings:Wade,Short,Sharples,Watson
Fullback:Goode,Ransom,Homer

12 of them are Saracens.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I have to agree with you.

bedfordwelsh Saracens have Charlie Hodgson and Owen Farrell.

I am just going to throw some names out of some English youngsters

Props:Vunipola,Beech,Marler
Hooker:George.
2nd row: Kitchener,Kruis, Slater
Backrow:Fearns,Wray,Gray,Fraser,Wallace,Saull,Vunipola, York,Launchbury
Scrum half:Spencer,Simpson
Fly half:Farrell,Ford,Clegg
Centres:Lowe,JTH,Joseph
Wings:Wade,Short,Sharples,Watson
Fullback:Goode,Ransom,Homer

12 of them are Saracens.

Yeh, because you picked them. I could pick an arbitrary list of young English players and make it look like Quins were the dominant academy if I liked. A number of clubs have good youngsters coming through right now. I believe that Leicester Quins, Saracens and Wasps have the most in the coming through (though willing to be corrected).

Beshockeds obessesion with his own clubs players is quite excusable as a retort to the suggestion that saracens have been herding young english rugby stars into secret bunkers and having them gassed incase they challenge south africans DOMINANCE.

The club has moved on quickly, and is doing an excellent job of providing opportunities for talented english youngsters to fail in the HC and not get picked for England.

If Joe Ford isnt good enough to keep Jeremy Staunton out of the Tigers first XV then he isnt anywhere near good enough to win the world cup

Joe Ford is a Leeds. George Ford is challenging Staunton and doing ok for an 18 year old.

I'm not sure what you're accomplishing by throwing the names of random young English players out there Beshocked. Personally I'd just point out that 10-15 is normally all English for Sarries as is a chunk of their pack and that their proportion of EQ to non EQ in the staring line up is as good as most and better than some.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If Joe Ford isnt good enough to keep Jeremy Staunton out of the Tigers first XV then he isnt anywhere near good enough to win the world cup

Joe Ford is a Leeds. George Ford is challenging Staunton and doing ok for an 18 year old.

I'm not sure what you're accomplishing by throwing the names of random young English players out there Beshocked. Personally I'd just point out that 10-15 is normally all English for Sarries as is a chunk of their pack and that their proportion of EQ to non EQ in the staring line up is as good as most and better than some.

Oh you always have to go and be right dont you. The poinst the same though!

With regard to Saracens the point is that they do have the same spilt of EQ players, yet are consitently cited as a club full of foriegners. Its as much a myth as the idea that the premiership is dominated by foriegn players at the expense super humans who would win us a world cup every year.

By the way how many french fly halves started the game against England?

Peter,

But they were Welsh players keeping Priestland/Hook out as opposed to foreigners.

Only the Blues have a Non Welsh 10 at the moment.

tomathy I am picking from my knowledge base. Pretty much all the players I picked have either been England U20s/are or simply done well in the AP.

I could have included more from Saracens too.

That 12 are Saracens simply shows that even the so called South African club are doing their fair share. Yes I know Watson,Spencer and Vunipola are only recent signings but it shows we are signing young english talent.

12 is still a lot from just one club. If every club had 12 you would have 144 quality English youngsters in total.

Pick your list.

Are we the best? Of course not.


Peter seabiscuit my actual main point if that the club with the so called most foreigners (actually either Exeter or London Irish has proportionally more) can still churn out plenty of talented youngsters where's the problem?

I personally think the conveyor belt of young English talent is fine.

I think an English side will win the HC.

It's the transition from club player to international level where I think England stutters.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Peter,

But they were Welsh players keeping Priestland/Hook out as opposed to foreigners.

Only the Blues have a Non Welsh 10 at the moment.

This is getting circular ... thats exactly the point I made. It doenst matter if they are welsh english or spaghetti, the player number isnt the issue. Its the quality of those players.
What if Flood were being kept out of the tigers side by Ford? Would that now be OK because you have a sub standard English player keeping out one whos good enough to play for england ? No.

The number of foriegn fly halves starting in Jeff clubs isnt that high, and even if it were 50% it still wouldnt be the reason England lack a world class 10.

If Wales can manage with just 3 starting spots going to welshmen and still fiond 3 10's for their squad then england should manage between 12 clubs to produce one for teh the england elite system to mould into a genuione international.
Instead we are seeing player like Youngs , Flood, Foden Lawes, Hartley, Cole have all their drive and enthusiam stripped from them and start playing well below their abilities after a few international starts. I sometimes wonder what the RFU does to tehse players behind closed doors.
Maybe its just the media.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Peter,

But they were Welsh players keeping Priestland/Hook out as opposed to foreigners.

Only the Blues have a Non Welsh 10 at the moment.

What difference does it make? If a good English club player who won't ever play for England is being picked instead of a young English player the effect is the same if a good/excellent foriegn player is picked. The English premiership is full of average/good english players who will never ever be international quality. these players are just as detrimental to development of youngsters as foreign players.

At Gloucester Vainikolo, Simpson-Daniel and Voyce might keep out Sharples, Tindall might keep out Sharples, Taylor (from Derby not Australia) might keep out Burns. You've got Buxton, Brown and Deacon in the forwards who won't get picked (probably include Wood in there now). Add in Will James who was born and raised in England but got capped for Wales (same goes for Hamilton as well).

Also another point is where do you draw the line?

E.g. Sam are you pleased with Grindal? I know he is English but he is still a player keeping out your friend Harrison. Also Chuter is keeping out talented young hookers. Staunton (not English I know) is stifling Ford's development.

Is a quality foreigner not better than a English journeyman?

There has to be a balance.

tomathy I know Quins like to bang the we are English and proud of it drum but seriously do you think Tom Williams is that good?

Also there is the whole mentoring thing.

Nick Evans is making Rory Clegg warm the bench but surely Clegg will learn from him?
Same with Schalk Brits and Jamie George.

As long as the level of mediocre foreigners is at a minimum isn't that the main thing?

HammerofThunor wrote:
What difference does it make? If a good English club player who won't ever play for England is being picked instead of a young English player the effect is the same if a good/excellent foriegn player is picked. The English premiership is full of average/good english players who will never ever be international quality. these players are just as detrimental to development of youngsters as foreign players.

Exactly my thoughts. At Tigers we had some excellent English clubman who got picked regularly ahead of the youngsters because, whilst not setting the world on fire, they were steady, reliable and did the job. Billy 12trees springs to mind here... very exciting talent, monster boot but due to youthful exuberance he was unpredictable in his performances. Regularly kept out of the match day squad for more reliable but far less talented players. Where would he be now had he had regular 1st XV game time?

There is an argument here too that suits the Welsh model. When you have most of your national squad concentrated into 2/3 teams they are far more used to playing together and gelling as a unit. That counts towards some of it I think too.

beshocked wrote:
tomathy I know Quins like to bang the we are English and proud of it drum but seriously do you think Tom Williams is that good?

No. What hell's that got to do with it? He's back fit now apparently, and even with Monye and Chisholm injured (both english), he's being kept out of the team by Smith, Stegmann and Brown (all english).

My point was that you picked a completely arbitrary set of young players and then boasted about how many Saracens players were in it, as if it was some sort of objective list, rather than one you'd just made up.

I do happen to think that Marler, Gray (Saints academy, admittedly), Matthews, Wallace, York, Clegg, Turner-Hall, Lowe, Sam Smith, Stegmann and Chisholm are all very good indeed, and that excludes guys like Robshaw, Brown, Robson, Care etc who've all come through the academy fairly recently.

You wont find many Quins fans who think that Williams will either be anywhere near the first choice 22 this season, or be with us beyond the end of his current contract. I really don't see what he's got to do with it.

Well done to Saracens for having so many young English players, but you're not the only ones by any stretch of the imagination.

E.g. Sam are you pleased with Grindal? I know he is English but he is still a player keeping out your friend Harrison. Also Chuter is keeping out talented young hookers. Staunton (not English I know) is stifling Ford's development.

Grindal will hopefully be released at the end of this season now Young has been signed and Harrison has stepped up. He was never supposed to be this high up the selection options but tragically Ellis retired at the start of last season and we didn't have time to sign a replacement. Harrison has taken time to make his way into the first team but he's still improved at an impressive rate and I'm hoping he'll start this weekend.

Staunton isn't stiffling Ford's progress, if anything he is a handy mentor and Ford was only 17 last season he wasn't ready to be thrown in to games like Edgley Park in February that would have been too much for him. He has got some game time under his belt and Jezza has come in to give him rest as he was under a lot of pressure in those first four games. Chuter on the other hand has been a great servant to the club and now at 35 he's coming to the end of his useful life in the first team he is still good enough to lead the team and mentor the likes of Tom Youngs who will probabley take his place by Christmas. No good handing a shirt to a youngster, you want them to covert them and work hard to get one and then work even harder to hang onto it.