Sam Warburton Red Card

by formerly known as Sam Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Good call from the ref a definite spear tackle. Has there been a more stupid piece of play this world cup?

by dublfcynwa Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:01 pm

Yes he did cost Wales the game, its was a terrible decison imo no sour grapes, Wales are fully justified in thinking they were hard done by.

by Cymroglan Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:01 pm

The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.

And it should be a yellow there was no intent to Injure the tackled player, Warburton is not that kind of player.

Common sense needed you know what a truly dangerous tackle is and you also know when a player has no intent on hurting the opposition.
If I thought that was a deliberate spear tackle then there is no way would I defend the red card but in this instance I believe a yellow would have been sufficient.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:03 pm

If you play the game you can take yourself out of the equation of "us spectators". I am generalising here, but I think most on this board watch the game but do not play it including myself (though I hope to change that later this year). That is who I am referring to and contrasting against actual players.

I am not suggesting an "average" player can not make a justified comment or even the spectators. I am just making the point that the internationals MAYBE (the key word) know more about the game than any of us.

Also Ben Foden and Mark Cueto have been quoted as saying the red card was a bad call. They are certainly not retired players.

by mckay1402 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:03 pm

I don't think he was biased I just think it's a disappointed reaction from people who aren't trained to speak to the media.

I think being upset at a referees decision is perfectly legitimate and shouldn't always be put down to sour grapes. quite often straight after a match the feelings are still raw and reaction may not be as rational as usual. My initial reaction was the Rolland cost us the game but having seen IRB directives I think it was correct.

Having said that I think the IRB have opened themselves up for criticism by allowing someone who could be percieved to be biased to allowed to referee the game. I'm not saying it had any influence on the decision but its easy to see how some fans might reach that conclusion.

by Bitter Beer Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:03 pm

The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

So, we're agreed then, it was a clear cut red card.

To suggest that Warburton should not have been sent off because 'he isn't that kind of player' is a joke.

by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:05 pm

I don't usually repeat the same point twice in quick succession but as I said Byrne got tackled in the air in 2009 and earlier this year. I see that as no less dangerous as dropping a player for the reasons I've already stated. Yet I can't recall either offence yielding a red card.

by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:05 pm

JDizzle wrote:What can he do once Clerc's legs got over his head?! You can't stop then. From that situation it is always going to look bad, but he didn't drive him into the ground and that is all he could do after he had got him up there. (note: obviously he should never have got Clerc up in the first place)

Either "untip him" (practically impossible I agree) or bring him down without a drop or drive (but still possible YC). The point is if you lift someone then you are responsible for bringing him down safely. If you tip him past the horizontal then it is unlikely you will be able to do that, so suggest you don't to start with!

by iso Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:05 pm

I'm sure he tried his best. I bear no malice to the man, his decision is final.

Gutted to lose, but there is now a 3-4 play off to try and win.

No point in looking back.

by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:09 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:If you play the game you can take yourself out of the equation of "us spectators". I am generalising here, but I think most on this board watch the game but do not play it including myself (though I hope to change that later this year). That is who I am referring to and contrasting against actual players.

I am not suggesting an "average" player can not make a justified comment or even the spectators. I am just making the point that the internationals MAYBE (the key word) know more about the game than any of us.

Also Ben Foden and Mark Cueto have been quoted as saying the red card was a bad call. They are certainly not retired players.

I play and referee. It was a clear RC as per IRB guidelines. If you wish to criticise something then criticise the guidelines.

by Standulstermen Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:11 pm

The key phrase is 'with no regard to the players safety'. we can argue all day about whether he had regard or not but letting go of the guy in the air with his feet vertical you are running the risk. I dont think many would have complained had it been yellow but a red is justified. Rolland did imo have a poor game aside from that mind you. Joubert has been the best ref i have seen

I will be cheering for the Kiwis tomorrow and then hoping Wales cut loose and hump Oz in the 3rd place playoff

by robbo277 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:12 pm

Based on the number of penalties England gave away in the pool stages, I wouldn't be in a hurry to call our players to witness!

You would hope that International players know the rules better (all professional players really, considering it's their job), but I don't feel that it necessarily has to be the case.

We all have an opinion, but in my opinion it was a red. Possibly a little hard on Warburton because others have got away with tackles like this, but a second wrong wouldn't make a right.

If a player is sent off, does he receive an automatic ban as well as in football (which can then be appealed?) I think it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days with regards to this incident, what the IRB and Paddy O'Brian say (if anything).

by JDizzle Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:12 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
JDizzle wrote:What can he do once Clerc's legs got over his head?! You can't stop then. From that situation it is always going to look bad, but he didn't drive him into the ground and that is all he could do after he had got him up there. (note: obviously he should never have got Clerc up in the first place)

Either "untip him" (practically impossible I agree) or bring him down without a drop or drive (but still possible YC). The point is if you lift someone then you are responsible for bringing him down safely. If you tip him past the horizontal then it is unlikely you will be able to do that, so suggest you don't to start with!

It is ridiculous. I am not condoning Warburton's tackle, but it was clear that he was expecting to be tackling a bigger man and the initial force of the tackle got Clerc of his feet and once his legs got upto chest level, there is nothing you can do to stop the motion of the tackle. Sam has a split second to decide what to do and he lets go instead of drving him into the ground. To say he has done it "with no regard to the players safety" is incredibly harsh, no player goes out there to spear someone and his options were limited when he got to a certain point and he has taken the option he thinks would best protect Clerc, so for me it is a yellow card and nothing more.

by doctornickolas Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:12 pm

So Mike, you must also agree then that all the referees in this tournament have made the wrong call numerous times as this type of tackle, well much worse, have only attracted a yellow card.

by Standulstermen Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:13 pm

JDizzle wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:
JDizzle wrote:What can he do once Clerc's legs got over his head?! You can't stop then. From that situation it is always going to look bad, but he didn't drive him into the ground and that is all he could do after he had got him up there. (note: obviously he should never have got Clerc up in the first place)

Either "untip him" (practically impossible I agree) or bring him down without a drop or drive (but still possible YC). The point is if you lift someone then you are responsible for bringing him down safely. If you tip him past the horizontal then it is unlikely you will be able to do that, so suggest you don't to start with!

It is ridiculous. I am not condoning Warburton's tackle, but it was clear that he was expecting to be tackling a bigger man and the initial force of the tackle got Clerc of his feet and once his legs got upto chest level, there is nothing you can do to stop the motion of the tackle. Sam has a split second to decide what to do and he lets go instead of drving him into the ground. To say he has done it "with no regard to the players safety" is incredibly harsh, no player goes out there to spear someone and his options were limited when he got to a certain point and he has taken the option he thinks would best protect Clerc, so for me it is a yellow card and nothing more.

totally irrelevant. I wont comment anymore on this as the Welsh boys deserve to vent today. Be proud of your team lads.

by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:16 pm

doctornickolas wrote:So Mike, you must also agree then that all the referees in this tournament have made the wrong call numerous times as this type of tackle, well much worse, have only attracted a yellow card.

Walsh should have given two RCs in France-Tonga, as borne out by the subsequent suspensions. But this tackle was worse than either of those two anyway.

by greybeard Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:17 pm

Here is the same (apparently biased) ref giving a French player a red for a similar tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALt9gDaf-10

He's consistent. Isn't that what we want from refs? He's applying the laws, not making up his own. Isn't that also what we want?

Complain about the law, but anyone who says he's wrong don't know the laws themselves

by JDizzle Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:19 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:
JDizzle wrote:What can he do once Clerc's legs got over his head?! You can't stop then. From that situation it is always going to look bad, but he didn't drive him into the ground and that is all he could do after he had got him up there. (note: obviously he should never have got Clerc up in the first place)

Either "untip him" (practically impossible I agree) or bring him down without a drop or drive (but still possible YC). The point is if you lift someone then you are responsible for bringing him down safely. If you tip him past the horizontal then it is unlikely you will be able to do that, so suggest you don't to start with!

It is ridiculous. I am not condoning Warburton's tackle, but it was clear that he was expecting to be tackling a bigger man and the initial force of the tackle got Clerc of his feet and once his legs got upto chest level, there is nothing you can do to stop the motion of the tackle. Sam has a split second to decide what to do and he lets go instead of drving him into the ground. To say he has done it "with no regard to the players safety" is incredibly harsh, no player goes out there to spear someone and his options were limited when he got to a certain point and he has taken the option he thinks would best protect Clerc, so for me it is a yellow card and nothing more.

totally irrelevant. I wont comment anymore on this as the Welsh boys deserve to vent today. Be proud of your team lads.

Not really. The refereee has to have some empathy with the players. If Charteris puts in a high tackle on a ducking short man, like Clerc, then it is a penalty but you can have empathy and see why it has happened and commit no more action. If he tackled a bigger player round the neck then you would take further actions as he has clearly gone for the neck. Similar principle. All the referees can apply the laws, the best refs have some empathy with the players aswell.

by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:19 pm

Why weren't the other spear tackles in the tournament, dealt with by penalties or yellow cards, brought up by the citing commissioners after the game? Because surely the refs got those decisions wrong as they should have been straight reds like Warburton's? Refereeing inconistencies yet again in this WC.

by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:20 pm

I've been a Wales supporter since the mid-1950s and am very disappointed with the result. But over nearly 60 years there've been a few heartbreaking defeats after refereeing decisions, besides some lucky wins.

There are some good omens for the next few years. Wales managed to score the only try and got to within a point, though they could have won it with missed kicks. They have a young, very fit side which has shown in other games that they can play heads-up rugby, and despite the red card Warburton is an excellent captain and a superb number 7.

I back them to win the third/fourth play-off on Friday and the next Six Nations.

by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:21 pm

Griff wrote:Why weren't the other spear tackles in the tournament, dealt with by penalties or yellow cards, brought up by the citing commissioners after the game? Because surely the refs got those decisions wrong as they should have been straight reds like Warburton's? Refereeing inconistencies yet again in this WC.

They were. All the tackles shown during ITV's clip of "similar tackles" have received suspensions.

by red_stag Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:24 pm

For me this was cut and dry rrd card. I fail to see why there is a discussion. Warburton turned him beyond the horizontal and lost control of him. The Frenchman fell to ground laning on his head neck shoulders area.

by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:27 pm

Ok, but why weren't they straight reds? Did referees get it wrong on the day? Or were they following protocol? What would make a ref decide on only a yellow for a spear tackle? None of those clips showed the tackler making a nice fluffy bed for the tackled player to be laid down nicely in, so why only yellow?

by A World Cup and 3 Finals Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:29 pm

Well played Wales, with 14 men you outplayed, an albeit unconvincing French team. Clear red card - move on!

by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:31 pm

Griff wrote:Ok, but why weren't they straight reds? Did referees get it wrong on the day? Or were they following protocol? What would make a ref decide on only a yellow for a spear tackle? None of those clips showed the tackler making a nice fluffy bed for the tackled player to be laid down nicely in, so why only yellow?

The refs got it wrong. Although in the Fiji one, Poite missed the tackle altogether and was poorly advised by his AR. Also I thought today's was a more clear cut RC. Rolland saw it perfectly and had no hesitation. He is a better ref than Walsh and Poite which is why he was reffing a semi and they weren't.

by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:38 pm

Mike, fair enough. It just bemuses me how there is any middle ground? Surely it's even straight red or a fair tackle? When or how is there room for a penalty or a yellow in that type of tackle, as seen countless times elsewhere?

Red Stag, as the self appointed final word on all things to do with the referee on these boards, can you answer that question? Why or how would a yellow be given?

by Cardiff Taffy Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:38 pm

red_stag wrote:For me this was cut and dry rrd card. I fail to see why there is a discussion. Warburton turned him beyond the horizontal and lost control of him. The Frenchman fell to ground laning on his head neck shoulders area.

You really fail to see why there is a discussion? It was a WC Semi and maybe 99/100 that would be a yellow card by whatever official is in charge. Oh it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament - I think that's why there is a discussion...

Not saying your wrong but would hope you understand that intrepretation in other matches and scale of the decision means it going to be questioned.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:41 pm

Cardiff Taffy wrote:
red_stag wrote:For me this was cut and dry rrd card. I fail to see why there is a discussion. Warburton turned him beyond the horizontal and lost control of him. The Frenchman fell to ground laning on his head neck shoulders area.

You really fail to see why there is a discussion? It was a WC Semi and maybe 99/100 that would be a yellow card by whatever official is in charge. Oh it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament - I think that's why there is a discussion...

Not saying your wrong but would hope you understand that intrepretation in other matches and scale of the decision means it going to be questioned.

" It was a WC Semi " "it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament " are things that should have no bearing on the decision making by the ref.

by Cardiff Taffy Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:44 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Cardiff Taffy wrote:
red_stag wrote:For me this was cut and dry rrd card. I fail to see why there is a discussion. Warburton turned him beyond the horizontal and lost control of him. The Frenchman fell to ground laning on his head neck shoulders area.

You really fail to see why there is a discussion? It was a WC Semi and maybe 99/100 that would be a yellow card by whatever official is in charge. Oh it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament - I think that's why there is a discussion...

Not saying your wrong but would hope you understand that intrepretation in other matches and scale of the decision means it going to be questioned.

" It was a WC Semi " "it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament " are things that should have no bearing on the decision making by the ref.

They do have a bearing on discussion though. All i am saying is people should understand the stunned reaction of the wales fans to this. Shocked

by red_stag Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:45 pm

Several reasons the fact its a semi final isnt.one though. This is like giving out about a referee penalising a crooked feed. Rolland made the right call. Warburton made no effort to srraighten the tackle. The player hit the deck dangerously often though they land safely. I can see why there is discussion yes but the legitimacy of the red is 100% for me. Yoj should have beaten france nonetheless.

by TycroesOsprey Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Cardiff Taffy wrote:
red_stag wrote:For me this was cut and dry rrd card. I fail to see why there is a discussion. Warburton turned him beyond the horizontal and lost control of him. The Frenchman fell to ground laning on his head neck shoulders area.

You really fail to see why there is a discussion? It was a WC Semi and maybe 99/100 that would be a yellow card by whatever official is in charge. Oh it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament - I think that's why there is a discussion...

Not saying your wrong but would hope you understand that intrepretation in other matches and scale of the decision means it going to be questioned.

" It was a WC Semi " "it was also our Captain and maybe the player of the tournament " are things that should have no bearing on the decision making by the ref.

I agree kiwi, the rules say it was a red card so it was a red. We had our chances to win in spite of that and lacked the composure to finish them off. Fortunatly for Waels' future it was older players who I feel didnt front up. If we blame the defeat on the card then we wont learn the lessons from this game. Happily I think this team will learn and grow from this. When we get the Ozzies next week and if the team have recovered then we will win. I almost want the all blacks to lose tomorrow so the boys have a chance to go out and beat them.

Ymlaen Cymru, Ymlaen

by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:50 pm

Why is a yellow card EVER given?!

by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:51 pm

Griff wrote:Mike, fair enough. It just bemuses me how there is any middle ground? Surely it's even straight red or a fair tackle? When or how is there room for a penalty or a yellow in that type of tackle, as seen countless times elsewhere?

Red Stag, as the self appointed final word on all things to do with the referee on these boards, can you answer that question? Why or how would a yellow be given?

If the player was brought to ground (that is accompanied) without a drive then I would say it could be a YC or only a pen. Or if the player was "untipped" quite a bit but still hit the ground shoulders (not head) first.

The way use refs at grass level have been told to think is "start at RC and if there is mitigation (NOT including lack of intent) then move down". But the point is RC should be the default position. Or put another way, you must have a very good reason not to give a RC. In this case aside from "ruining the game" (which Can't enter a ref's thought process) I fail to see any.

It was a gutsy call, and I am sure there are plenty of refs who would have copped out and given only a YC. AR is not one of those and fair play to him.

by Davie Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:51 pm

He started the drive into the ground though. Then he either realized what he was doing and backed out, or he unintentionally dropped him. Either way, by that time it was too late

by Sin é Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:52 pm

greybeard wrote:Here is the same (apparently biased) ref giving a French player a red for a similar tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALt9gDaf-10

He's consistent. Isn't that what we want from refs? He's applying the laws, not making up his own. Isn't that also what we want?

Complain about the law, but anyone who says he's wrong don't know the laws themselves

I wonder was Gats moaning about that red card 'ruining the game' Very Happy

Like hell he was!

by rug568 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:53 pm

Really don't see why there was such outrage from neutral supporters.
He picked him up, took him above horizontal, then dropped him on his neck. If that's not a red card i don't know what is.

http://ht.ly/6Yd0Y

by red_stag Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Agree in full Mike. Rolland made a hard call. I remember thinking Clancy chickened.out of a red in the HEC Saints v Perp last year. Rolland made a big gutsyand correct call.

by Sin é Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:58 pm

Rolland will probably ref the Final now as France are in it.

Isn't there a mandatory citing when a red card is issued in a game? (When Jamie Heaslip got his red he was suspended for a couple of games).

by welshy824 Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:04 pm

how is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALt9gDaf-10 a red?

body was flat, nothing wrong with that

by greybeard Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:11 pm

Because his shoulder made contact with the ground first, hence he was beyond horizontal.

by english warrior Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:15 pm

I wanted France to win but was quite frankly appalled by this hasty and poorly thought out decision. It was a penalty, but there was no malicious intent and Rolland just cost a team and country thier dream of a World cup final.

Rolland had plenty of choice as to what action to take and a Yellow would have been sufficient, as the tackle was illegal, but not malicious and there has to be some intent. In fact watching the match i thought Warburton had been sin-binned, but was then left speechless when the decision came through.

In every team and individual sport the Refferee and umpire can affect a game positively, or negatively, but in none can they have the effect that a Rugby ref can. Mr Rolland destryed the game, and with it the hopes and aspirations of a Team and country, shame on you!!

by dogtooth Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:21 pm

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/content.php?224-Alain-Rolland-and-Sam-Warburton-s-Red-Cardamps=f45009011dc1136fdf63a4cfb26d7f60

by eirebilly Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:21 pm

When you look at it, olland was correct in giving the red card if he was appliing the strictest letter of the law to that tackle.

That said, i dont believe when people say that the semi final of a World cup should have no bearing on the decision. I think it should, its one of the biggest matches ever and i feel that Rolland was too harsh in his decision and it had a huge bearing on the game. I believe that it was a yellow card offence at most, if Rolland had shown the yellow card then he would still be showing the teams that he is well and truely in charge but also not severly having an influence on the game itself.

By the letter of the law he is correct in his decision but i feel that more discretion could have been shown.

by FitzStephen Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:45 pm

I've had a couple of looks at the tackle and it was not good. Were I Welsh, I would be furious at the red, but in the cold light of day, this is a part of the game that must be stamped out even if it was done without "malicious intent". I have been punched (a red card offence in rugby) and also dumped upside down onto the pitch in a tackle. I can tell you the spear tackle hurt far, far more and for far, far longer.
My other point is that Gatts and Sam W have been complaining that there was no "malicious intent". Both were using this as their primary defence ie the tackle would have deserved a red if Warburton had meant to hurt Clerc. Unfortunately, one of Rolland's major issues as a ref is his lack of telepathy - he saw a bad tackle and whether it was Darth Vader (pure evil) or Sam Warburton (pure class player who made a very poor tackle) he had to judge it as he saw it. In this case - and I am extremely p**sed off that the men in red are out - it was a red card challenge and it should not matter if it is the world cup semi or a junior league game in Donegal.

by BlueMuff Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:17 am

Fail to see why there is a discussion on this. It was a dangerous tackle that could of resulted in a serious injury.

The fact thats its a WC semi final is irrelvant. There is no place in rugby for taking chances with players lives.

Red Card and Rolland can take a bow for showing courage to enforce the rules.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:17 am

IRB Memo:

In 2007, the IRB Council approved a Laws Designated Members Ruling which essentially made it clear that tackles involving a player being lifted off the ground and tipped horizontally and were then either forced or dropped to the ground are illegal and constitute dangerous play.

At a subsequent IRB High Performance Referee Seminar at Lensbury referees were advised that for these types of tackles they were to start at red card as a sanction and work backwards.

Unfortunately these types of tackles are still being made and the purpose of this memorandum is to emphasize that they must be dealt with severely by referees and all those involved in the off-field disciplinary process.

Attached is a recent decision of the Judicial Officer Jannie Lubbe SC, in which the differences between the application of the red card test by referees and judicial personnel is highlighted.

In our view, this decision correctly highlights that the lifting of players in the tackle and then either forcing or dropping them to the ground is dangerous and must be dealt with severely.

To summarise, the possible scenarios when a tackler horizontally lifts a player off the ground:

The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.

Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4 (e)) of the circumstances of the tackle.

BLAME THE LAWMAKERS NOT THE REF

by **rodders** Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:26 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15321526.stm

Matt Dawsons take on things.

by Ospreydragon Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:48 am

If Sam had made an attempt to catch him in the air -- by outstretched hands -- maybe it would have been a yellow. I just want to see this kind of decision applied evenly, to everyone, unless and until the law is rewritten.

by **rodders** Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:00 am

If Warburton hadn't of just let go of Clerc and at least tried to bring him down he might have got a yellow. According to the rules driving the player down and dropping him whilst in the air amount to the same, a straight red.

I can't understand how so many pundits and ex players don't know this, it is stated very clearly by the IRB.

by Thomond Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:05 am

He dropped him is the reason for the red. He had a lack of regard for Clerc's safety. If he brought him to ground it could have been a yellow.

by Ospreydragon Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:20 am

http://www.sd61.bc.ca/athleticassoc/sports/middlesports/New%20IRB%20Laws%20and%20emphasise%20for%202011%20season-2.pdf

-- See Tackle section

1. "The player is lifted and then forced or “speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
2. - The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
3. - The players is lifted with their head below horizontal and tackled to the ground. At a minimum a yellow carded should be issued for this type of tackle, with an ejection a possible result depending on the circumstances of the tackle.
4. - For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles, a yellow card should likely occur depending upon the circumstances of the tackle."

Perhaps ex-players think 4 applied (I've added the numbers). 1 certainly didn't, in my view. If ref thought it was 2, that's an interpretation of "no regard". Perhaps it was 3? I can see why people have different opinions.

by Sponsored content