Can people please stop questioning Referees' integrity

I am Welsh and feel sick that the red card incident (along with some bad kicking) has cost us our place in the final. I think that Alain Rolland had the option of a Red or Yellow card, and while the letter of the law might indicate a red, common sense and discretion could and should have been applied resulting in a yellow.

But this is not a was it or wasn't thread. I have seen a few fellow Welsh posters suggest that Rolland's French heritage played a role in his decision, this is ridiculous. The similar accusations of bias from South African and Samoan fans earlier in the tournament were also laughable (or in the Samoan case scary and shocking).

To my fellow Welsh fans- stop it, you're making us sound stupid. Everyone, lets accept that Top class referees are human make mistakes (though in this case it is possibly not a mistake as such, more a poorly thought out call) but they do NOT show favouritism.

I have to say that most guys on here have been pretty good in accepting what me a gutting defezt.

irfon17 wrote:I am Welsh and feel sick that the red card incident (along with some bad kicking) has cost us our place in the final. I think that Alain Rolland had the option of a Red or Yellow card, and while the letter of the law might indicate a red, common sense and discretion could and should have been applied resulting in a yellow.

But this is not a was it or wasn't thread. I have seen a few fellow Welsh posters suggest that Rolland's French heritage played a role in his decision, this is ridiculous. The similar accusations of bias from South African and Samoan fans earlier in the tournament were also laughable (or in the Samoan case scary and shocking).

Everyone, lets accept that Top class referees are human make mistakes (though in this case it is possibly not a mistake as such, more a poorly thought out call) but they do NOT show favouritism.

+1

Good post - I don't like the decision, but I'm sure it was an honest one.

I thinks its only a minority really. Most Welsh fans seem to accept it as either a right call or a call Alain perceived to be right.

in the heat of the moment i did blame his heritage and i apologise- i stand by the fact it was a terrible decision and it has ruined the final- winner 2morro is winner of the cup

irfon17 wrote:I have seen a few fellow Welsh posters suggest that Rolland's French heritage played a role in his decision, this is ridiculous. The similar accusations of bias from South African and Samoan fans earlier in the tournament were also laughable (or in the Samoan case scary and shocking).

To my fellow Welsh fans- stop it, you're making us sound stupid. Everyone, lets accept that Top class referees are human make mistakes (though in this case it is possibly not a mistake as such, more a poorly thought out call) but they do NOT show favouritism.

Agreed, and I applaud your comments.

But..... and there's always a but!

1.) This is being fuelled by the media, and ITV in particular.

2.) It's not solely eminating from the Welsh

3.) and this my contentious point, The IRB have opened the door to perceived bias and allegations by allowing officials who may have a vested interest to officiate the game in the first place.

I really feel sorry for Rolland and Owens amongst others because their integrity has been called into question because it's been allowed to be called into question.

Red Dragon, there is only so far you can defend yourself from baseless accusations.

In the case of Mr. Rolland, one could argue that it would be more sensitive not to have a referee of French parentage to take charge of a France game, yet he is most suited for the task as he speaks French. Having a referee that doesn't speak the language would disadvantage France. Which consideration takes priority- the practical one, or the PR one?

In the case of Mr. Owens, he was accused becuase Wales stood to benefit from a Samoa defeat. This logic could be taken further, such as not having a Welshman officiate the Ireland - Australia game as an Irish victory would give Wales a (in theory) easier quarter final, you could follow this logic until you have no eligable referees left.

Would it not have made more sense if Joubert had reffed today and Rolland tomorrow.

I find it sick that the media are trying to turn what was a perfectly reasonable call (if you actually read the IRB directive) into a witch hunt. Let's not let rugby turn into football, where every defeat is blamed on the ref.

Mind you, if he'd reffed tomorrow, and France had won today, if you see him as somehow 'French', he might be perceived as wanting the weaker side to win, to give France an easier final! I just think you have to trust officials.

Mad for Chelsea IRB directive also suggests the use of a yellow card or penalty.

If I could 'like' posts I'd like this... yeah. Good on ya

Good post, irfon.

Let's hope this non-issue is quickly forgotten and we can enjoy the rest of the world cup.

There's still the prospect of an absolute humdinger tomorrow even before the final itself!

Cymroglan wrote:Mad for Chelsea IRB directive also suggests the use of a yellow card or penalty.

no it doesn't, he lifted him, then dropped him. That's a red card offense, ask any of the refs on here they'll tell you the same

Actually Cymro, it says any time a lifted player is dropped from a height with no regard to the players safety its a straight red. Offences below that are yellow.

So this was very much on the borderline between red and yellow and could have gone either way.

The focus (if any) should be on all the kicks in front of the sticks that we unfortunately missed

Actually Notch you would be the last person I would expect to see it any other way.
You have made no secret that it's ABW

what does ABW stand for?

irfon17 wrote:Red Dragon, there is only so far you can defend yourself from baseless accusations.

In the case of Mr. Rolland, one could argue that it would be more sensitive not to have a referee of French parentage to take charge of a France game, yet he is most suited for the task as he speaks French. Having a referee that doesn't speak the language would disadvantage France. Which consideration takes priority- the practical one, or the PR one?

In the case of Mr. Owens, he was accused becuase Wales stood to benefit from a Samoa defeat. This logic could be taken further, such as not having a Welshman officiate the Ireland - Australia game as an Irish victory would give Wales a (in theory) easier quarter final, you could follow this logic until you have no eligable referees left.

Wow... slow down a minute..... I don't need to defend myself here at all..... I am not and have not made any accusations against Rolland or Owens or any other ref for that matter. As it happens and you can take a look if you so desire, I have openly on this forum agreed that Rolland made the correct call (or at least I can see why he made it).

As for the language argument, suffice to say that all players can if they so desire learn other languages of Rugby playing nations as it would be of a benefit to them. This goes both ways, eg French speakers to learn English and English speakers to learn French (a la Wilkinson). Besides, France, who play mainly against non French speaking countries are quite used to not having a fluent French speaking ref available and they generally get by OK. But agreed that it would be beneficial to everyone to have multi lingual refs.

I just think that there must have been a ref available who has the ability and professionalism to officiate the game today who would clearly not have a vested interest never mind a perceived one, could have made the same call for the red card and as such we could simply debate the call. By having a ref who has a heritage or link with one of the teams it allows the accusations of bias in, and that is where I believe the problem lies.

To be clear, I totally agree that calling Rollands integrity into question is wrong, but I certainly see how it could have been avoided in the first place.

Sure, there is a limited supply of quality refs and for the pool games I can see how this is a big issue, but once we get down to 2 games and 1 game, surely this is not such a problem?

Draon I think you have raised your concerns in a very amiable way and been fully respectful to all including Rolland.

With regards to the question of bias (perceived or otherwise) it is something the French have been complaining about for decades in club or intl games. When they have an Anglo ref when playing any of the British teams they always feel they are starting on the back foot. It is interesting that in recent years that English and welsh supporters dont like Roland even though he is a very unbiased ref. But its only because he speaks french.

Notch wrote:Actually Cymro, it says any time a lifted player is dropped from a height with no regard to the players safety its a straight red. Offences below that are yellow.

So this was very much on the borderline between red and yellow and could have gone either way.

+1

Red Dragon, when I said that there is only so far you can defend yourself from baseless accusations, I was not referring to you, I was referring to the IRB. The reason I put your name at the front of the sentence was to indicate I was responding to your post, not directing the sentence at you.

What I meant by the sentence was that the IRB can only do so much to avoid putting their referees in a position where they could be accused (baselessly) of bias. Apologies for the ambiguity.

I'm starting to get over the disappointment tbh. Retracting the accusations I made earlier about Rolland being in France's pocket, I still say a red card was the wrong call but in any case I'm over it. In the long run we butchered too many points to win when we had the chance. The future lies ahead, the past behind.

Thank you Stag, it just saddens me that this topic has come up at all.

No worries Irfon, and I do agree that there is only so much the IRB can do. Until we have enough quality officials from a wider source than we currently do it is always going to be difficult, and sorry but I have to say it, on this occasion they could have done more.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Notch wrote:Actually Cymro, it says any time a lifted player is dropped from a height with no regard to the players safety its a straight red. Offences below that are yellow.

So this was very much on the borderline between red and yellow and could have gone either way.

+1

its clear the player was turned and dropped from a height. Straight red, no ambiguity . If you look at it in real time its even clearer.

Not once have I thought the ref was biased but I do think the red card was harsh.
In the professional era having a ref who's father is French reffing a game in the semi final of the world cup that involves France is not the wisest decision.

He is Irish, he played for Ireland, he lives and works in Ireland, his passport is Irish

His father is still French

Cymroglan wrote:His father is still French

In other words you question his integrity. I wish you had the capability to show even half as much class as the Welsh players did in defeat. As has been explained to you ad naseum now the referee under the rules was perfectly within his rights to give a red card. Harsh perhaps, but certainly not wrong. Perhaps you should investigate the insipid back play, the poor kicking, the lack of composure, leadership and accuracy that cost Wales victory rather than continue to bash a referee you made the correct call under the laws of the game. Your moaning is what is wrong with armchair critics who haven't the faintest understanding of the rules of rugby.

Cymro...like I said its only the same type of issues the french have had with Anglo refs over the last 30 years. They play Wales and get Wayne Barnes. To them the Welsh are British, Wayne Barnes is British...what do you think they expect from it?

I think Roland is very careful to be unbiased...

Here is a question for you. The penalty for Mas coming in from the side which Halfpenny missed. Was that really a penalty for France or Wales do you think? What I saw was Harinordoquay making the tackle and driving through, tried to pick up the ball and Charteris held on and in fact dragged it back in. Secondly no ruck is formed. Ball is placed Mas comes in and tries to pick up....

No way was that a Welsh penalty...

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:His father is still French

In other words you question his integrity. I wish you had the capability to show even half as much class as the Welsh players did in defeat. As has been explained to you ad naseum now the referee under the rules was perfectly within his rights to give a red card. Harsh perhaps, but certainly not wrong. Perhaps you should investigate the insipid back play, the poor kicking, the lack of composure, leadership and accuracy that cost Wales victory rather than continue to bash a referee you made the correct call under the laws of the game. Your moaning is what is wrong with armchair critics who haven't the faintest understanding of the rules of rugby.

In other words you should read what I said ,,,, I already stated that I did not believe that he was biased what I said was that it's foolish to have somebody who's heritage is closely linked to one of the teams playing as in having a French Father.
Also you are having a go at me for not accepting defeat why ? not once have I said the French did not deserve to win

DOD wrote:
Here is a question for you. The penalty for Mas coming in from the side which Halfpenny missed. Was that really a penalty for France or Wales do you think? What I saw was Harinordoquay making the tackle and driving through, tried to pick up the ball and Charteris held on and in fact dragged it back in. Secondly no ruck is formed. Ball is placed Mas comes in and tries to pick up....

No way was that a Welsh penalty...

That was the worst decision in the game and could have cost France a place in the final. How the flip that was a penalty is beyond me.

DOD wrote:Cymro...like I said its only the same type of issues the french have had with Anglo refs over the last 30 years. They play Wales and get Wayne Barnes. To them the Welsh are British, Wayne Barnes is British...what do you think they expect from it?

I think Roland is very careful to be unbiased...

Here is a question for you. The penalty for Mas coming in from the side which Halfpenny missed. Was that really a penalty for France or Wales do you think? What I saw was Harinordoquay making the tackle and driving through, tried to pick up the ball and Charteris held on and in fact dragged it back in. Secondly no ruck is formed. Ball is placed Mas comes in and tries to pick up....

No way was that a Welsh penalty...

I thought the same as that at first but when I saw the replay Mas definitely came in from the wrong side. I thought at the time that it could have gone either way.

I think the question with regards to the ref can be put like this. Would you be happy with Steve Walsh refereeing your team Vs New Zealand? he doesn't represent New Zealand any more so as far as I'm concerned it's no different.

DOD wrote:Cymro...like I said its only the same type of issues the french have had with Anglo refs over the last 30 years. They play Wales and get Wayne Barnes. To them the Welsh are British, Wayne Barnes is British...what do you think they expect from it?

I think Roland is very careful to be unbiased...

Here is a question for you. The penalty for Mas coming in from the side which Halfpenny missed. Was that really a penalty for France or Wales do you think? What I saw was Harinordoquay making the tackle and driving through, tried to pick up the ball and Charteris held on and in fact dragged it back in. Secondly no ruck is formed. Ball is placed Mas comes in and tries to pick up....

No way was that a Welsh penalty...

No it was not a penalty thats another decision he got wrong, One mistake cost Wales and one of his other blunders could have cost France.

DOD:

I agree that was not a Welsh penalty, was he trying to make up for the red card after deliberating at half time?

I felt there was a penalty when a French flanker came straight through on Phillips when the ball was in the ruck on the French 25, it was just ignored!

Yeah but no ruck was formed...Charteris had initially held on for Harinordoquay and had placed the ball a couple of times....there was no gate to come through in effect...

anyhow splitting hairs now but it just shows that the question of bias is irrelevent because if it was a 50/50 decision he gave it to Wales and could have cost France the game.

Not sure if his dad would have been too pleased with him then...

Glamorg...what about the first half penalty that Hook scored...Philips actually has the ball in his hands and Dusatoir gets penalised....

I have to agree with Dod - when they said 'coming in from the side' I was trying to work out - the side of what?

DOD:

I also agree when they showed the action from behind, but I also questioned the scrum penalty for the Frence James did not go to ground thw French prop turned in a dropped. If we remove all the penalties Wales would have won 5 - 0!

Might have been the right score too.

Firstly they don't need a specific French speaking ref. 3 of the French players gave interviews in English after the game so that doesn't wash at all.

Secondly, I have known all week that he would ref us badly...why, because he always does. We always get the rough end of all his decisions and I would be more than happy to never see him ref a Welsh game ever again.

Finally, we still should have won. Why we went back to playing the rugby we were playing 1 year ago I will never know. Why did we kick every scrap of possession away. Why did we start doing that stupid blind side move all the time again, It never worked before, and after we had ended up in touch the first 5 times today why didn't someone say, "hang on this is stupid, it isn't working".

doctornickolas wrote:Firstly they don't need a specific French speaking ref. 3 of the French players gave interviews in English after the game so that doesn't wash at all.

Secondly, I have known all week that he would ref us badly...why, because he always does. We always get the rough end of all his decisions and I would be more than happy to never see him ref a Welsh game ever again.

Finally, we still should have won. Why we went back to playing the rugby we were playing 1 year ago I will never know. Why did we kick every scrap of possession away. Why did we start doing that stupid blind side move all the time again, It never worked before, and after we had ended up in touch the first 5 times today why didn't someone say, "hang on this is stupid, it isn't working".

agree with all of the above. Never like Rolland when he refs us.

Also I don't understand why it's not allowed to question a referees integrity. Surely it was things like this that led to having neutral refs in the first place. I just cannot understand the logic of appointing him for this game.

Having said that Wales lost the match

A lot of teams don't like Roland when he refs them.. Its because he is a good referee.

DOD wrote:A lot of teams don't like Roland when he refs them.. Its because he is a good referee.

Kaplan was the same

Agree with the post.
The rules are such that the refs are too often put in lousy positions.
And fans choose to assume the nationality of the ref gives favoritism?
Are we really in that position.
Focus on the rules.

So why bother with neutral refs at all? For the record I think he had a good game but I also think the IRB open themselves up to these kind of questions.

He is a neutral ref.

He could even be a neutral ref if he reffed Ireland it'd not his integrity that is being questioned.
What mckay is saying is that in the pro era the IRB should ensure that everything is done to ensure that refs are not put in a position that could possibly bring their neutrality into question.

Would it not have been far more sensible if Rolland had been reffing the other semi final ?

Cymroglan wrote:Not once have I thought the ref was biased but I do think the red card was harsh.
In the professional era having a ref who's father is French reffing a game in the semi final of the world cup that involves France is not the wisest decision.

I agree his father is French and it leaves him open and this is not the first time he has been involved in a controversial incident in sending off a non French player early in a game which could of gone either way and resulted in a game going against a team.
It isnt fair he is put in this position.