About v2Thank you, James Hook
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Thank you, James Hook
by Luckless Pedestrian Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:29 am
First topic message reminder :
Thanks. That's two matches we've lost because of your goalkicking.
NOTE: I know that's harsh and perhaps not entirely accurate; but I don't care. This is a place for debate, isn't it?
Thanks. That's two matches we've lost because of your goalkicking.
NOTE: I know that's harsh and perhaps not entirely accurate; but I don't care. This is a place for debate, isn't it?
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Casartelli Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:15 pm
Cool the engines there FHF! - nobody is trying to WUM anybody here.
Just trying to provide some balance to the 'Hook should never wear the 10 jersey again' or 'Hook is doodoo' rantings of the slow learners.
Don't agree that Gatland's tactics have changed in the RWC - he's stuck to pick & drive since 6N 2009 - but the difference was until Warbs & Adam went off he had his best players employing them in this tournament.
Priestland will be the 10 of the choice for the foreseeable - his weakness is his kicking, as with Jones and Hook. But Halfpenny is world class now and could take over the duties there.
Point is - ripping into Hook shows a fundamental lack of understanding. He's been poor this RWC - Jones was worse and Priestland was good. But under Plan Gatland it doesn't make much difference - it was two of our best players (Warbs & Bomb) going off that ended the dream.
Just trying to provide some balance to the 'Hook should never wear the 10 jersey again' or 'Hook is doodoo' rantings of the slow learners.
Don't agree that Gatland's tactics have changed in the RWC - he's stuck to pick & drive since 6N 2009 - but the difference was until Warbs & Adam went off he had his best players employing them in this tournament.
Priestland will be the 10 of the choice for the foreseeable - his weakness is his kicking, as with Jones and Hook. But Halfpenny is world class now and could take over the duties there.
Point is - ripping into Hook shows a fundamental lack of understanding. He's been poor this RWC - Jones was worse and Priestland was good. But under Plan Gatland it doesn't make much difference - it was two of our best players (Warbs & Bomb) going off that ended the dream.
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Luckless Pedestrian Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:18 pm
So let me get this right, Casartelli: are you absolving James Hook of all blame for the way we've played the last two matches?
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:39 pm
Sorry not ripping unduly into Hook at all just stating my view, if anything slating the posters who instead of discussing JH run down Jones instead. IMHO (again) Jones was much better as was seen against France and Oz even you can see that for goodness sake, even the experts from Shanklin to Dallaglio all said he made a marked difference against Australia when he came on.
Its rediculous to state that Hook should never wear the 10 jersey if he is good enough he should play, but it should never be a regional bias, it should be whats best for your national team even if it was 15 Blues, Os, NGDs or Scarlets. I really dont understand running down another player to bolster another, it just smacks of an inabilty to defend the analysis.
IMHO for the last 2-3 seasons Hook hasn't played well enough in any position or perhaps it should be more accurate to say that others have arguably been playing better in the 15, 13, 12 and 10 positions.
15 Byrne, Stoddart, 1/2p, Barry Davies, Prydie, Dan Evans
13 Shanks, Davies, Bishop, Williams
12 Roberts, Davies
10 Jones, Biggar, Tovey, Priestland
have been consistently better, during part or all of the last three years
HOWEVER Hook has been overall been better than them all as a Utility Back i.e. he can cover all the above positions, and that the crux of the matter.
To end Gatland has clearly changed tactics if you have played rugby or watch it consistently you will have seen its now longer kick kick kick, or pick and drive............... its about aware attacking flair, distribution and going through the phases patiently
Its rediculous to state that Hook should never wear the 10 jersey if he is good enough he should play, but it should never be a regional bias, it should be whats best for your national team even if it was 15 Blues, Os, NGDs or Scarlets. I really dont understand running down another player to bolster another, it just smacks of an inabilty to defend the analysis.
IMHO for the last 2-3 seasons Hook hasn't played well enough in any position or perhaps it should be more accurate to say that others have arguably been playing better in the 15, 13, 12 and 10 positions.
15 Byrne, Stoddart, 1/2p, Barry Davies, Prydie, Dan Evans
13 Shanks, Davies, Bishop, Williams
12 Roberts, Davies
10 Jones, Biggar, Tovey, Priestland
have been consistently better, during part or all of the last three years
HOWEVER Hook has been overall been better than them all as a Utility Back i.e. he can cover all the above positions, and that the crux of the matter.
To end Gatland has clearly changed tactics if you have played rugby or watch it consistently you will have seen its now longer kick kick kick, or pick and drive............... its about aware attacking flair, distribution and going through the phases patiently
Last edited by flyhalffactory on Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Smirnoffpriest Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:41 pm
FHF -- that's a lil harsh I don't think Casa was wumming.
But Casa - you say it doesn't make any diff who plays 10 in the current tactics. I can't agree with you, didn't you see the difference made when Priestland was playing - distributing flat passes for Roberts, North and the fowards to run onto, kicking neatly behind the defence when it was on, running into space and if it wasn't on passing to the next reciever straight away giving them enough time to do something with the ball.
When Hook played, all that stopped - suddenly the centres didn't have any room, players recieved the ball at a stand still instead of at pace, he kicked when we worked space for the wingers to attack, he hesitated (or gave paniced last min passes) when he should have decisively kicked, he passed when the player had defenders almost on top of him, and he was generally poor in defense. He's been poor this WC, he was ok in the Warm Ups, a good game against England an ok game against Argies, was awful against France, very good against Ireland, poor for the rest except 20 mins against Scotland.
He's been mostly poor and quite often has been at fault for tries - against Oz, SA, a few interception tries, a few missed tackles, poor positioning (I'm not saying he's the sole or main contributing factor to why those teams scored those tries, I'm just saying he made mistakes and they proved costly)
But Casa - you say it doesn't make any diff who plays 10 in the current tactics. I can't agree with you, didn't you see the difference made when Priestland was playing - distributing flat passes for Roberts, North and the fowards to run onto, kicking neatly behind the defence when it was on, running into space and if it wasn't on passing to the next reciever straight away giving them enough time to do something with the ball.
When Hook played, all that stopped - suddenly the centres didn't have any room, players recieved the ball at a stand still instead of at pace, he kicked when we worked space for the wingers to attack, he hesitated (or gave paniced last min passes) when he should have decisively kicked, he passed when the player had defenders almost on top of him, and he was generally poor in defense. He's been poor this WC, he was ok in the Warm Ups, a good game against England an ok game against Argies, was awful against France, very good against Ireland, poor for the rest except 20 mins against Scotland.
He's been mostly poor and quite often has been at fault for tries - against Oz, SA, a few interception tries, a few missed tackles, poor positioning (I'm not saying he's the sole or main contributing factor to why those teams scored those tries, I'm just saying he made mistakes and they proved costly)
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Smirnoffpriest Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:43 pm
Also forgot to add when Jones came on - even though he had a poor WC, we started getting go forward, stopped kicking away possession needlessly and the midfield came into the game better. Not saying he was amazing but he was better than Hook.
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:48 pm
Smirnoffpriest wrote:FHF -- that's a lil harsh I don't think Casa was wumming.
"Casartelli wrote:
This is a complex issue, beyond the comprehension of the likes of flyhalfactory and many on internet blogs."
Spirnoff mate.... What do you call this then Scotch Mist? !!!!!!
Last edited by flyhalffactory on Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Luckless Pedestrian Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:49 pm
Smirnoff, that's the thing - Stephen Jones knows how to run a backline. As dangerous as Hook can be from broken play, he's just not an orchestrator, which is what you need from your outside half.
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Smirnoffpriest Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:51 pm
Ahh apologies FHF didn't see that comment
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:51 pm
flyhalffactory wrote:Smirnoffpriest wrote:FHF -- that's a lil harsh I don't think Casa was wumming.
"Casartelli wrote:
This is a complex issue, beyond the comprehension of the likes of flyhalfactory and many on internet blogs."
Smirnoff mate.... What do you call this then Scotch Mist? !!!!!!
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by gavstar Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:52 pm
Casartelli wrote ''....the 10 is only there to pop passes....'' making reference to the way gatland wants to play.
Not really that simple Casartelli.......
you have to be in the right position, time the pass, decide if the pass is on will the receiver get mashed or not, maybe take it on yourself, pass to a forward if you want a ruck, direct the players where you want them to be ,chip behind if its on, kick to touch if keeping in hand is not an option or kick if there's an obvious space behind the opposition you can exploit, and on and on and on,, its called decision making, managing the game, which is why hook is not a 10.
to say jones was worse than hook is laughable.
you cant be serious surely----can you?
Not really that simple Casartelli.......
you have to be in the right position, time the pass, decide if the pass is on will the receiver get mashed or not, maybe take it on yourself, pass to a forward if you want a ruck, direct the players where you want them to be ,chip behind if its on, kick to touch if keeping in hand is not an option or kick if there's an obvious space behind the opposition you can exploit, and on and on and on,, its called decision making, managing the game, which is why hook is not a 10.
to say jones was worse than hook is laughable.
you cant be serious surely----can you?
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:52 pm
Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ahh apologies FHF didn't see that comment
Don't have to apologise mate ........ we are all one big happy family here really
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Smirnoffpriest Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:53 pm
It's true Luckless - it's a shame with Hook he has so many talents but in any position you put him in he has flaws and in any position he has trouble getting the best out of the players around him. But I'm sure he'll improve in France.
And FHF - I didn't think it was Scotch Mist, I know that only comes around when you eat beans...
And FHF - I didn't think it was Scotch Mist, I know that only comes around when you eat beans...
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Casartelli Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:54 pm
You can take anything in isolation and highlight it as good. Against France, when we were down to 14 men, Hook, twice, booted 60m kicks, with backspin, which is an incredibly difficult skill to accomplish and which only two other people in the world could have done (Steyn and Steyn, no relation) - that stopped France's momentum and kept us in the game.
The tactics have not changed - it's all about the pick and drive. If you have to pick one person who makes a difference to this it's North - who is starting to look a class act with bulk, pace and balance.
Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarlets fans think.
The tactics have not changed - it's all about the pick and drive. If you have to pick one person who makes a difference to this it's North - who is starting to look a class act with bulk, pace and balance.
Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarlets fans think.
Last edited by Casartelli on Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:54 pm
Smirnoffpriest wrote:It's true Luckless - it's a shame with Hook he has so many talents but in any position you put him in he has flaws and in any position he has trouble getting the best out of the players around him. But I'm sure he'll improve in France.
And FHF - I didn't think it was Scotch Mist, I know that only comes around when you eat beans...
dont light a fag ...............
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:02 pm
Casartelli wrote:You can take anything in isolation and highlight it as good. Against France, when we were down to 14 men, Hook, twice, booted 60m kicks, with backspin, which is an incredibly difficult skill to accomplish and which only two other people in the world could have done (Steyn and Steyn, no relation) - that stopped France's momentum and kept us in the game.
The tactics have not changed - it's all about the pick and drive. If you have to pick one person who makes a difference to this it's North - who is starting to look a class act with bulk, pace and balance.
Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarkets fans think.
I am serious here mate, how long have you been involved in rugby, I mean have you ever played or watched rugby alot. Gatland was open about the change in Welsh tactics he was going to employ going into the warm-ups and beyond he didnt pick Bishop. Biggar and Jon Thomas as he wanted an expansive game and very little pick and drive, a great example was Warbutons and Lydiates role behind the ruck and mauls during the first two warm-ups, laying further back, in order to run wide, even Gethin Jenkins was dribbling around the fringes during the WC games.
To pick up on North a prime example of not pick and drive was his unselfish skill set in putting AWJ in for his try.
That is why Priestland has been a revelation in a structured but dynamic role in what is still the pivotal position.
Who plays 10 is probably the most important factor in the new tactics of MR G
Last edited by flyhalffactory on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Luckless Pedestrian Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:02 pm
Casartelli wrote:Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarlets fans think.
Yeah, that's right, only Scarlets fans think Hook's not an outside half...
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by english warrior Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:04 pm
As an Englishman i too would like to pass on my thanks to James Hook, because if it wasn't for you well, i'm welling up now, but hey thanks for this World cup and all you did for England, many thanks Hooky!!!
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by gavstar Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:08 pm
so if it doesnt make a difference who plays 10 (doh!) why do you cassa prefer hook?
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Casartelli Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:08 pm
flyhalffactory wrote:Casartelli wrote:You can take anything in isolation and highlight it as good. Against France, when we were down to 14 men, Hook, twice, booted 60m kicks, with backspin, which is an incredibly difficult skill to accomplish and which only two other people in the world could have done (Steyn and Steyn, no relation) - that stopped France's momentum and kept us in the game.
The tactics have not changed - it's all about the pick and drive. If you have to pick one person who makes a difference to this it's North - who is starting to look a class act with bulk, pace and balance.
Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarkets fans think.
I am serious here mate, how long have you been involved in rugby, I mean have you ever played or watched ruby alot. Gatland was open about the change in Welsh tactics he was going to employ going into the warm-ups and beyond he didnt pick Bishop. Biggar and Jon Thomas as he wanted an expansive game and very little pick and drive, a great example was Warbutons and Lydiates role behind the ruck and mauls during the first two warm-ups, laying further back, in order to run wide, even Gethin Jenkins was dribbling around the fringes during the WC games.
Gatland is open about a lot of things that are mere media spin (Wales players like to beat Ireland more than any others etc etc) - you shouldn't pay attention to that stuff.
Look at the evidence of what they still do, time after time after time - pick, drive (x10), kick or pop it up to Roberts and North. It's a valid tactic as long as we have our most powerful players in the pitch.
I respect your opinion as a big, strong, passionate Scotsman - but you're letting your Stephen Jones fascination cloud your judgment here!
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:11 pm
luckless_pedestrian wrote:Casartelli wrote:Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarlets fans think.
Yeah, that's right, only Scarlets fans think Hook's not an outside half...
I think we all know where you are coming from Casartelli............. Luckless has pinpointed it exactly
Who do you support by the way.......... region wise
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Casartelli Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:20 pm
flyhalffactory wrote:luckless_pedestrian wrote:Casartelli wrote:Who plays 10 is not a key factor - regardless of what the Scarlets fans think.
Yeah, that's right, only Scarlets fans think Hook's not an outside half...
I think we all know where you are coming from Casartelli............. Luckless has pinpointed it exactly
Who do you support by the way.......... region wise
I don't live in Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff or Newport so don't feel much of an affinity to any of them. I'd like to see them all do well, to be honest.
Point(s) I'm trying to make is that i. this is a more complicated issue than Hook is rubbish/Stephen Jones is old/arthritic etc. and ii. the 10 debate is the least relevant factor under Gatland's tactics (but we like it in Wales because 75% of the fans were brought up watching Cliff Morgan and Barry John).
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:25 pm
Casa I think you need to start watching some live rugby or if you can play the game.
I think you are so far off the mark its untrue............... the 10 slot is the most relevant factor under the current tactics of Mr G as can be seen how you played with RP and JH at the rudder
Right............ I expect I could provide you with evidence all night and you still wouldn't budge.
So I am out of this discussion I have a bleeding headache
I think you are so far off the mark its untrue............... the 10 slot is the most relevant factor under the current tactics of Mr G as can be seen how you played with RP and JH at the rudder
Right............ I expect I could provide you with evidence all night and you still wouldn't budge.
So I am out of this discussion I have a bleeding headache
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by Casartelli Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:32 pm
FHF - good to know that even if 606v2 has somehow disabled my MrFahrenheit name - we can still have a good debate.
Have a good weekend big man.
Have a good weekend big man.
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:50 pm
Mr F
Well done my man !!!...... got me good and proper you did guv
Take care brother
Well done my man !!!...... got me good and proper you did guv
Take care brother
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Re: Thank you, James Hook
by flyhalffactory Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:53 pm
I can justify my headache now............. worse than my wife man!!!
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