How to win a RWC or not fail by much.

After the end of this RWC,I have read so many comments about France,NZ,the final,bent referees,Penalty goals kicked or not.
I am at a loss to begin.France were hosts in 2007,Nz hosts 2011,in both these RWCs France turned up for maybe 2 games.
According to most of the posters here France were the better side in the Final,certainly in the second half.The All Blacks
were kept in the game by the officials.Further that Mc Caw deliberatly injured Parra,may or may not have been eye gouged himself
by persons unknown. That anyway the winning penalty did`nt go over but what the hell give the All Blacks the cup
as a consolation prize.
Accordinging to some reports the All Blacks were dominated at both scrum and lineout and were by far the better side.
The bare facts were ,each side created one chance of a try and took it,each side had 4 shots at goal and converted
one each.Each side took two lineouts each against the throw,in only one or at most two did France have the better scrum
In the first half the All Blacks had a couple of dominant scrums too.France had the better of possession and postion stats.
All Blacks made 117 tackles,France 126.
There have been allegations that Refs favoured sides,France v NZ[final],France vWales[semi] Australia v SA all these
were supposed to have been fixed for want of a better word.
In both 2007 France v NZ,and England v SA were the Refs also supposed to have got it wrong likewise here in this one.
France virtually in the pool stages in 2007,and 2011,and the Semi-final v England 2007,Wales 2011 they barely turned up.
Then they produced a riveting performance in the final here 2011 ,and yes they probably were the better side on the day.
BUT to be considered a great side you have to produce MOST of the time NOT just when the moons in the right quarter.
Over the years France have always been unpredictable ,unbeaten in there warm up games ,then lose two pool games.
Put together a halfway decent performance versus England ,struggled past 14 men Wales,then nearly hitting the jackpot.
What has been clear is the Program of games the modern player faces is horrendous,what has spoilt this RWC most
for me.Is the large number of horrendous injuries to key players of ALL Nations those I wish well,this is the First RWC
I have watched in Depth since I retired in 2008,and the matches i`ve watched mostly i`ve enjoyed that from one
who does not like the concept.
NZ true champions of the World or should it be France or another nation you tell me on the evidence of RWC2011?

I wouldnt worry about it too much Alan. Point is they won and over the full tournament were the best and most deserving side. We had one poor match, and still won it. No one else did.

As many have said, its over, ABs have won. Move along.

The one thing I have learnt is it is very hard to win one of these things and I'll readily admit that NZ teams have been naive in the past. Thing is, thats why they won it here. This is much harder than any 3N because of all the variables. They've found the right mix of attack and defence. Sure we didnt play well in the final. France certainly played better than they did against say..Tonga so that was also a factor.

The other things I've learn't is injuries need to be prevented. They were horrendous. There's no real answer and having bigger squads doesnt fix it- teams will always want their best 15 on the park, so 100 or 30 in the squad doesnt make a difference when you want to win the game. That was the 12th test in 14 weeks for this team so no wonder all the Ozzies started dropping like flies the weeks before.

And what did you think about Donald duck having the last word with kicking the eventual winning goal- irony at its very best!!

The amount we all put him through as a player since Hong Kong and then to see fans screaming his name down Sandringham road Saturday night was surreal- in your whole career you wouldnt get anywhere near that sort of a chance to redeem yourself and the way he just charged up at the ball to take the kick was classic.

Here it was just a great end to a great tournament. The fiddly bits will iron themselves out later...for us its relief more than anything. We can do the quality thing later on so if the criticism was we should have lost...so be it. We're still relearning how to win these things though we will probably be stronger for it in 2015.

Taylorman,that was the ultimate irony there was a cartoon in I Think the Dominion Post that summed it up hilarious.Good for the guy he came through when it mattered.
As to the final awesome,the best i`ve seen both sides trying there hearts out.Typical one try each these things are never going to be try fests under the current rules.
Now it needs a few months for Dan Carter,Colin Slade,Aron Crudon,and "Captain Tackles" to get there bodies right for S15/4Ns.
People have been saying Ritchie Mc Caw is past his best.BUT he`s proved on one leg in the last two games he`s still the best in the business,

Watched the entire parade yesterday and McCaw just wasnt anywhere without that cup. The crowds were unbelievable. I think it really hit home on the team how important it was.

Then the awards last night. Tomorrow theyre down here for a float thingy after Christchurch today so its still going on and on here.

McCaw is just going to morph into one of those all time legends of the game with what he's done to date and the humility of the guy is almost becoming sickening. Always deflecting personal praise, always talking 'us' etc...

Youre right though...couldnt even train during the week but turned out to play as he did.

Hey guys

Haven't commented since the game due to alcohol and reading up on it from every paper I can find. Jones didn't have an article in the Times-damn was waiting for that hehe.

NZ were lucky. Bloody lucky. The ref gave us the rub of the green for sure. France were better than us, but not good enough to take the variable of the ref out of play scoreboard wise. I don't think I've seen a WC affected by refs anywhere near as much as this one and it needs to be addressed. A hell of a lot of games. Williams and Francis made me sick though just bagging Joubert and not going on about the other refs in the tournament. As for France, well the karma of 2007 bit them on the bum this time which is a pity as they turned up with so much intensity and it rattled the ABs to the bone. Having said that though just saw the gouge and it wasn't pretty-maybe karma again there.

McCaw was playing on one foot and had a solid game. He was outplayed by Dusautoir but when you look at his injury and how he was limping at the end, well him on two feet would have been just phenomenal. Magnificent defence by NZ too-and Donald kicking the penalty was hilarious in its irony, almost as hilarious in his midriff revealing shirt. Maybe he was thinking that he looked like a dick with the shirt like that he didn't concentrate on how much pressure he was under.

When Carter went out before the quarters, those who wanted to see an upset were rubbing their hands. When Cruden went down in the final (that looked horrible. I hope he recovers soon) then you got the feeling down in your gut.

I knew it wasn´t going to be a runaway victory by any means. We didn´t play well and were too conservative in our tactics. The French defence reinforced those tactics but I don´t think we were smart in our play when we did go wide, predominantly through Nonu.

That said, people talk of the French defensive effort but not the NZ one. We trusted in our ability to protect that one point lead and in the end we did enough to protect that lead.

If we had beaten France by 20 everyone said France were unworthy finalists. People focused on the French decisions that went against them. The favourites won in the end though. France would´ve deservedly been champions if they had won but nobody can say we are not deserving champions either.

For me the most important thing was we won. Not for the supporters but for the players themselves. They deserve it. It means so much to all of us but they deserve the credit. Ted had to endure a lot of crap after the 2007 exit. But they kept the faith in him and he delivered and above all so did his players.

Many wanted NZ to fail before the tournament. I have no problem with that. You like to see upsets. Many people after the tournament want to take away from the AB victory. Won´t change whose name is engraved on there for 2011. kia kaha

Yup too true. Apparently we couldn't win ugly, and we couldn't win without McCaw or Carter.

No Carter, McCaw on one foot, and grinding out a one point win in a final where the opposition were winning most of the collisions in the second half.

They can say the All Blacks were lucky all they like but there was some pretty bad luck during the tournament with Carter's injury and more, and NZ overcame it to win. So Love sacks to those who wanted their four yearly fix of schadenfreude.

I think it's interesting that after so many years of playing the most fantastic rugby I've ever seen ....and losing. That this tournament the ABs played perhaps the worst rugby of their WC history (even Argentina had them rattled for a half or more) ...and won.

Don't get me wrong. The AB's still score almost more tries playing their most defensive rugby than Ireland do playing their best. But when you think of the sheer speed and power shown by the ABs in 1995 and 2003, etc. It just goes to prove the old cliche that big WC games are never won with flare and speed out wide. They're won with guts and a level head in the dirt up front.

I think that (with the exception of the Carter injury) the ABs were lucky they headed into that French game with so many problems and having had to scramble for their victories in the semi and quarter. It put the grit in their belly (and the crowd's) to hold their nerve for those last 30 mins and to forget about running rugby for the duration.

I think you have something there Nos na Gaoithe. NZ won with their defence in this World Cup. In other world cups we have tended to think it doesn´t matter how many tries the opposition can score, we can score more. Such an attitude can come back to haunt you.

I think the no-frills, conservative defence oriented game is far less spectacular but probably a safer option. When all you want to do is win the thing, you go with the safer option. Maybe that will change now we´ve got the monkey off the back or maybe it would´ve been different with different opposition.

We didn't look like scoring any points for the last 20 though-just as well we didn't fall behind!

NZ excel at playing all styles and their ability to adapt is instrumental in their overall record. This hasn't been the case in WCs as we haven't been ready for the intensity and this has caused us to lose focus from the task at hand. This time our grit in the face of all sorts of adversity got us home. Fully adree with you Nos.

I must admit when we went into lockdown mode with 4 mins to go I was nervous as I felt France had one more crack in them. But they did that really really well. Hopefully we can use this belief that we can to better our WC record in future cups. Because the other five still hurt.

France deserved to win the game, NZ deserved to win the world cup

Perfectly summed up Nos, a total paradigm shift for the ABs.

Perhaps this points to a certain style of rugby needed to win world cups? The South Africans and English have been accused of 10 man boring rugby in the past, but they've delivered in recent years. NZ, for all their flair rugby over the years, hadn't won it since 1987 and needed to revert to a defence orientated, tight, SA/Eng style of play to win this one. Anything in this theory?

My point in posting this thread was how do you explain France,probably by results they are the best NH side in the professional era.
The tactical approach in 2007 and 2011 seemed to be risk nothing,do just enough until they reach a key match.
IF and I freely admit it France were better side over the whole 80 minutes of the Final.
Why did`nt they win it? robbed by the REF ?NO that`s the whiners cry .
They got away with as much or as little from the Ref as the ABs,IF you were to do a second by second slo -mo of the whole game you would see that.
They played more Rugby than they did in all the previous games combined,BUT they created NOTHING.
One try and that was given to them,two penalties missed plus a muffed drop.
The whole game was a battle between the two defences,the All Blacks intensified theres in the last 30 minutes.
YES there may have been penalty chances for both sides missed ,Talking about 3 high AB tackles missed.But NOT about France similar offences at least one high tackle,deliberate stamping on McCaws leg and on and on.
Trin-Duch was a revelation compared with Parra, even if penalties were given to each side.Such was the goal kicking NEITHER side would
have converted them.
Up until the Semi-Final the all Blacks won by a minimum of 20 points,had a VERY tough match versus Australia arguably there BEST performance 12 tests in 14 weeks took there toll.
For years France have been an enigma unbeatable,or diabolical whatever the mood takes them.
IF Australia had made there side of the draw would France have reached the final.Would NZ have beaten the Boks we will never know.
Was Frances overall form a tactical surprise to spring another ambush on a unwary AB side.is Lievremont crazy like a fox?
Trying to con his way to a RWC it very nearly worked,but not quite.

Yea unfortunately we're resigned to toughing these out from now on. Weve realised we arent good enough at our running game in these events where the combination of the sheer pressure and injury toll is not conducive to open styles.
Thats why oz us and france dont win matches playing their natural games. Wales this time as well. No one could open up. We'll go back to our normal game but realise that world cup knockouts will always be battles of attrition and survival.
At least we know that now and more importantly, have proved we know it now.

"probably by results they are the best NH side in the professional era."

ERM MTOUGH TO CALL- but id say england edge them out

Did`nt bother to check it you maybe right,someone else stated France had better stats.But does`nt really bother me, France were unlucky not to win
but it`points on the board that count.

emack2 wrote:My point in posting this thread was how do you explain France,probably by results they are the best NH side in the professional era.
The tactical approach in 2007 and 2011 seemed to be risk nothing,do just enough until they reach a key match.
IF and I freely admit it France were better side over the whole 80 minutes of the Final.
Why did`nt they win it? robbed by the REF ?NO that`s the whiners cry .They got away with as much or as little from the Ref as the ABs,IF you were to do a second by second slo -mo of the whole game you would see that.
They played more Rugby than they did in all the previous games combined,BUT they created NOTHING.
One try and that was given to them,two penalties missed plus a muffed drop.
The whole game was a battle between the two defences,the All Blacks intensified theres in the last 30 minutes.
YES there may have been penalty chances for both sides missed ,Talking about 3 high AB tackles missed.But NOT about France similar offences at least one high tackle,deliberate stamping on McCaws leg and on and on.
Trin-Duch was a revelation compared with Parra, even if penalties were given to each side.Such was the goal kicking NEITHER side would
have converted them.
Up until the Semi-Final the all Blacks won by a minimum of 20 points,had a VERY tough match versus Australia arguably there BEST performance 12 tests in 14 weeks took there toll.
For years France have been an enigma unbeatable,or diabolical whatever the mood takes them.
IF Australia had made there side of the draw would France have reached the final.Would NZ have beaten the Boks we will never know.
Was Frances overall form a tactical surprise to spring another ambush on a unwary AB side.is Lievremont crazy like a fox?
Trying to con his way to a RWC it very nearly worked,but not quite.

A case of the pot calling the kettle black there, maybe? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but 'whiners' could be how you might describe a number of NZ posters on here and a large number of the population after the 2007 World Cup, with the death threats to the ref, etc. Everyone's entitled to a whine, and everyone does. In fact, over the years of reading/posting to this and the old 606 I have never EVER found any fans who DON'T whine at some point (apart from those nations who do not post on here, obviously). I've heard whining from us Welsh, English, Irish, Scottish, French, 3N sides, etc., etc. The 'cry of the whiner' is therefore not just characteristic of the losing sides, but is ingrained in the history of the current world cup winner's fans/media too.

Griff wrote: but is ingrained in the history of the current world cup winners too.

I think if you modify that to "current world cup winners' fans", you'd be on the money. The reactions by some (many?) after 2007 were a disgrace.

But I think the AB team and management still haven't whined about that game (I haven't seen the French team whine this time either, yet). Which is in stark contrast to SA and Wales this time around.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
I think the no-frills, conservative defence oriented game is far less spectacular but probably a safer option. When all you want to do is win the thing, you go with the safer option. Maybe that will change now we´ve got the monkey off the back or maybe it would´ve been different with different opposition.

Welcome to the world of the England fan.

We are so openly attacked all the time, by most nations, that I think England have developed the siege mentality at a DNA level. They are so desperate not to lose to anyone that SAFE DEFENCE has become the way we automatically play. MJ has proven that we can play attractive running rugby as we did in the AI's and warm ups but soon as the RWC came around he immediately reverted to type and brought in the battle hardened seige engines of Shaw, Wilkinson, Thompson etc which was very dissappointing. As the media hate campaign intensified so did Englands seige mentality until we stopped playing altogether.

goneagain wrote:

Griff wrote: but is ingrained in the history of the current world cup winners too.

I think if you modify that to "current world cup winners' fans", you'd be on the money. The reactions by some (many?) after 2007 were a disgrace.

But I think the AB team and management still haven't whined about that game (I haven't seen the French team whine this time either, yet). Which is in stark contrast to SA and Wales this time around.

Noted, and updated!

Griff I´m not sure where you get this sweeping generalisation that Kiwi fans are sore winners. The one emotion I felt from most of my Kiwi friends around the world and from the posters here was relief.

When Wales got a red card did many posters complain about it? Some yes but how can you possibly tell if it´s the majority. Like you say, when you lose, you feel aggrieved. It´s natural to find the culprit rather than own up to the fact.

I agree death threats or spitting on coaches or hoping Deans would win the World Cup when he wasn´t made NZ coach did happen in NZ. There are idiots though all over the world. Give them anonymity and put them in front of a keyboard and their voice seems even louder. But much like most things in life, normally there are the extremes and the majority sit in between those extremes.

Kia, hardly sweeping generalisations. If you read it back I said 'a large number' meaning not all. And I never said 'sore winners', I was talking about sore losers. Emack was saying that for anyone to say that the ref robbed them of a win was a 'whiner's cry'. I politely reminded him that 'a large number' (so not all, and not a sweeping generalisation) of NZ fans were sore losers in 2007, so not even NZ is whiter than white in the whining stakes. I was just pointing out the obvious really, but I think he'd perhpas forgotten it!

My apologies sir. I just saw the world cup winners´fans and made an ass out of you and me. Won´t happen again sir!

Quite right. We all have our fair share of idiots. The fairweather supporters who throw their toys out of the cot when their team loses and come back when they start winning again.

No worries kia! For what it's worth I'm glad you won, the All Blacks have always been my second side and I'm glad you've got the world cup monkey off you back. However, it does mean that the rest of us are probably in for it in future world cups as the ABs won't have as much pressure on them as before. Could be scary!

Well one thing this World Cup reinforced for me is that to win you need luck (with injuries, with the bounce of the ball, with referee decisions) and to try to maintain your performance as much as possible to allow for the inevitable team that lifts their performance against you.

Nothing is certain!