England lucky to not to play tests in India this time!

by wow Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:04 pm

Very very lucky lucky.
The tables are turned, England lions have been found out. Lions at home lambs abroad. Ironically the saying fits on both the teams Smile

India befittingly taking the revenge by white washing England. As soon as Cook went, it was like Indian spinners smelling the blood, Dhoni hunted down all their men and inflicted another humilating defeat. One area where Indian team can claim superiority is ODI format. Even when playing in England, India fought well in all the matches whereas England's defeat reeflects more or less same kind of scoreline India showed in tests when playing in England.

In Eng, India bowling was not upto the mark and in India the batting of Eng players is not up to the mark. They cant play spin only.

England have been saved by the scheduling or else they would have suffered the same fate in the tests too. king

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:11 pm

Erm, our Test side is totally different. Nonsensical article, must try harder.

by wow Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:13 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Erm, our Test side is totally different. Nonsensical article, must try harder.

Nonsensical statement. How exactly it is different? Name a single player who has a good record in India in tests? And how is the side completely different? Strauss comes in place of kieswetter or Prior comes in place for kieswetter.
What else?
:

by JDizzle Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:17 pm

How is our side completely different? Drop Kieswetter, Bopara, Bairstow, Patel, Meaker and Finn (or maybe not with Finn) who aren't in the Test side. Over half the side is different, so yes, it is completely different.

Maybe england would struggle in India in a Test series, most sides do. I wouldn't be surprised if India snuck a 4 match series 1-0, or 2-1. I do know that England would have put up more of a fight than in the ODI stuff and I wouldn't be surprised to see England win the Test series in India, where I would have been surprised to see them win the ODI's.

by wow Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:21 pm

JDizzle wrote:How is our side completely different? Drop Kieswetter, Bopara, Bairstow, Patel, Meaker and Finn (or maybe not with Finn) who aren't in the Test side. Over half the side is different, so yes, it is completely different.

Maybe england would struggle in India in a Test series, most sides do. I wouldn't be surprised if India snuck a 4 match series 1-0, or 2-1. I do know that England would have put up more of a fight than in the ODI stuff and I wouldn't be surprised to see England win the Test series in India, where I would have been surprised to see them win the ODI's.

JD, you wil not be able to drop the above mentioned names as Broad, Anderson are injured. Bairstow might get replaced with Strauss. You have to play Bresnan, Swann, Finn. Meaker or Dernbach or Onions.

These guys are not playing by the choice, these are forced inclusions very similar to Dravid's opening in all of the tests against England.

by wow Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:22 pm

You would have to play either Patel or Borthwick as second spinner in India.

by hodge Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:28 pm

wow wrote:You would have to play either Patel or Borthwick as second spinner in India.

or they would just select any other spinner they fancied, the squad would look totally different for a test series. They could even use KP as 2nd spinner, has been done before.

In many respects I think Jos Buttler was unlucky to miss out on the ODI side, he is a quality player of spin so could have been of some use

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:29 pm

And Anderson isn't injured as far as I'm aware.
Is Tremlett?

by hodge Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:31 pm

Anderson was 'rested' in other terms they remember what happend last time he bowled in india in ODI's

by wow Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:32 pm

hodge wrote:
wow wrote:You would have to play either Patel or Borthwick as second spinner in India.

or they would just select any other spinner they fancied, the squad would look totally different for a test series. They could even use KP as 2nd spinner, has been done before.

In many respects I think Jos Buttler was unlucky to miss out on the ODI side, he is a quality player of spin so could have been of some use

But the question will remain that whether that squad be able to win in India? My answer is an emphatic no! The reverse of England would have happened. But these are all ifs and buts. We can only assume (unfortunately), India's real progress will be seen when we will travel to Australia.

In hindsight it is bit satisfying that we have white washed Eng in ODi. OUt of last 18 ODIs played against India in India, Eng have managed to win only one.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:35 pm

wow wrote:
hodge wrote:
wow wrote:You would have to play either Patel or Borthwick as second spinner in India.

or they would just select any other spinner they fancied, the squad would look totally different for a test series. They could even use KP as 2nd spinner, has been done before.

In many respects I think Jos Buttler was unlucky to miss out on the ODI side, he is a quality player of spin so could have been of some use

But the question will remain that whether that squad be able to win in India?

England would have a much better chance of winning a test series in India than an ODI series.

by hodge Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:44 pm

England arn't that good at ODI's anyway though and India were pretty much expected to win fairly easily, we're good at T20, we're good at tests we just can't play the middle format.

so well done, you beat a team who are ranked what 6th in the world in ODI's?

clap

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 25 Oct 2011, 11:44 pm

KP has a good record in India I believe, and didn't Mr Cook make a century on debut there.

Tests and ODI's are a totally different game, required totally different skills and have totally different mindsets, it is pointless comparing them, especially when our team is totally different too!!!

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 12:21 am

hodge wrote:England arn't that good at ODI's anyway though and India were pretty much expected to win fairly easily, we're good at T20, we're good at tests we just can't play the middle format.

so well done, you beat a team who are ranked what 6th in the world in ODI's?

England were fourth, above India before this series and now they have sliped to sixth.

FOF, you can keep on believing that team is different for tests and odis but in reality there is not much difference and KP was there last time too and England lost 1-0. And the first defeat was a defeat by six wickets. Mohali is not a turning track and that is why Eng came unscathed.

by Leff Wed 26 Oct 2011, 2:07 am

England might not have won the ODI series in India even with Anderson, Broad, and Strauss. England team has never been comfortable in this format.

But, test cricket is quite different; it's the best fit for England. They know how to pace themselves, when to drop anchor, when to attack, and how to escape seemingly certain defeats with draws. Test cricket suits English temperament and English way of thinking.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct 2011, 2:58 am

Eng are indeed lucky that they are not facing Indian now in tests.

OK they may have had strauss in the line-up...but going by the evidence of Trott, Bell( even in 1 inning), Cook, KP, swann and Bresnan's batting.....he would have also struggled against spinners just like all thes eguys who scored runs for Eng in Eng did.

we already saw how superman / terrifying Bresnan of Eng as the bowler was marginalized.......anderson and Broad's fate would have been similar.

the most worrying thing was Eng spinner's performance.....could extract nothing from these pitches

if it was a 3 test series......Eng's best result would have been a 2-0 scoreline in defeat......avoiding inning defeat in one of the defeats and finding a flattish pitch in 1 out of 3 to score a draw in one of the games.

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct 2011, 4:43 am

Oh Dear!Another WUM has arrived.

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 7:35 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Oh Dear!Another WUM has arrived.

You seem to have pretty good idea about yourself. Well done, a lot of posters actually do not know that they are a WUM. Laugh

Also, please do not contribute if you do not have anything meaninigful to say about the topic. If you do not like the subject then you do have a choice to not to comment on it. By reading your first comment it does not look that you can debate or argue a topic. So please continue with wummery but I would request you to do it on another posts.
thanking you
your sincerely
wow

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct 2011, 8:33 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Oh Dear!Another WUM has arrived.

off topic...in every sense of the word....hope admins will notice

by **Fists of Fury** Wed 26 Oct 2011, 9:33 am

Right, this particular admin has noticed, and this is what we're going to do.

Shanky - You're not going to call people wums, and are going to report it to a mod/admin if you think that is the case.

Anu_d/wow - Whilst I wouldn't bracket either of you as wum, it is clear you're trying to get a rise out of some of the England supporters here. If you have a particular opinion, then by all means explain it and if it is backed up with solid evidence then by all means post it. One thing I won't accept however is barbs with no factual relevance aimed at England fans. We've had several problems with an old poster here doing that very thing, and it led to worse, so it stops now.

All clear?

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct 2011, 9:41 am

^
@fist of fury

agreed and very fair !

by Stella Wed 26 Oct 2011, 9:43 am

England would definitely struggle IF they were to play a five test series at the moment although I think India may just edge it rather than them hammering us.

But we're not Very Happy

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct 2011, 9:53 am

I think we would beat India 1-0 in a Test series in India.

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:12 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I think we would beat India 1-0 in a Test series in India.

possible except that recent and also long term history points against it ( i say that from memory)
Eng have done it only once in 31 years ( i.e win a series in India even by a 1 game margin)....Gower's side in 1984 on the back of Neil Foster's bursts in Madras and Gatting / Fowlers life time best innings.

Heck.....Eng have a better chance of beating Aus in Aus.....based on recent and long term history then India in India

by rich1uk Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:15 am

maybe that would be because england did just beat australia in australia last winter ...

by anu_d Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:16 am

rich1uk wrote:maybe that would be because england did just beat australia in australia last winter ...

not only that...but also long term history
Eng have won twice in Aus in 24 years and only once in India in 31 years

by Guest Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:17 am

history means nothing, when it comes to playing cricket. Look at us winning the ashes in australia. History and records are there to be broken. I am very sure that we would beat india, in india in a test series.

by Stella Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:21 am

England are average players of spin but luckily for them, India don't have any great spinners.

We would give them a fight but come up short, IMO.

by trebellbobaggins Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:29 am

The test side are a totally different animal.

This arrogance after once little odi win is amazing. Thank God we trounced you and didn't suffer it this summer.

by msp83 Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:30 am

India have indeed whitewashed England in the ODI series. That's a cause for joy, particularly after the 2 and a half months disaster of a tour to England, where lets not forget, India didn't win a single international contest. So this series certainly has been about regaining the confidence, and giving a punch or 2 back with all the fource, and the Indians have done it in emphatic style.
But lets stop there and not overstretch it into something that it is not.
A last minute adjustment means England aren't playing the full series involving the tests, they will be played next year.
I'd say good for both sides, and more importantly the cricket lover.
England has had a disastrous time playing the Indian spinners. They are missing key players such as Stuart Broad and Eoin Morgan with injuries.
As far as India is concerned, Sachin Tendulkar and Zaheer Khan are not back to fitness. Sehwag is only slowly gaining match fitness. Indian spinners may have troubled England big time during the ODI series, but the reality of Ravindra Jadeja emerging as the 2nd best spinner in the country not just speaks about the hard yards the young man put in, but also about the lack of propper reserves.
And for the cricket lover, haven't we had enough of India-England for now? There is not going to be any time to relax, for the fan or the player, but at least the upcoming series is going to be not against England but the West Indies, whom we played ages ago!!, 5 months??!!!!!!!

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:44 am

wow wrote: Name a single player who has a good record in India in tests?
:

Strauss (54.33), Cook (43.42), Prior (44.00) and KP (40.55) all have fairly good records in India in Tests. Bell averages only 20, so its fair to say he has struggled, but he is a far superior player to when he last toured India to play tests back in 2008. Morgan and Trott have never played a test India.

Anderson has his Ten wickets in India at 29, which is a very good return for a pace bowler in India. Swann and Broad have poor records, but Broad like Bell is a far better performer now than he was in 2008.

I would still say England would be underdogs in a Test series in India, but I can't see a Test series being so dominated by the home side, like the Test series in England was or the ODIs in India.

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 11:39 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
wow wrote: Name a single player who has a good record in India in tests?
:

I would still say England would be underdogs in a Test series in India, but I can't see a Test series being so dominated by the home side, like the Test series in England was or the ODIs in India.

Totally agreed. As it was the second worst defeat for a test playing nation however the ODI whitewish has come as a solace after that drubbing so why not to relish it Smile

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 26 Oct 2011, 11:53 am

wow wrote:
Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
wow wrote: Name a single player who has a good record in India in tests?
:

I would still say England would be underdogs in a Test series in India, but I can't see a Test series being so dominated by the home side, like the Test series in England was or the ODIs in India.

Totally agreed. As it was the second worst defeat for a test playing nation however the ODI whitewish has come as a solace after that drubbing so why not to relish it

I see you missed my reply to your comment about no England player having a good Test record in India. WUM alert. Whistle

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 1:27 pm

DM, calling me a wum is completely unnecessary as that will make you a wum as you are winding me up. I missed reply to rest of your comment as I partially agreed to it and my comment says that I agree with you anyway so how is this wumming?
Strauss is the only player with a commanding average. All top Indian batsman have test average of nearly 50 if you are aware of that. KP had done decent in ODIs as well so far but it did not alter any of the ODI results. England would have had to play as a team and performed better this time and I am not sure as howmany of the players except Strauss would have played the spin with some conviction.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed 26 Oct 2011, 1:43 pm

Hmm how is England's team in tests different from England's team in ODIs.

ODI series:
Cook Kieswetter Trott KP/Bell Bopara Bairstow Patel Bresnan Swann Finn Dernbach/Meaker

Test side:
Cook Strauss Trott KP Bell Morgan Prior Broad Swann Anderson Finn/Tremlett/Bresnan

So Kieswetter, Bopara, Bairstow, Patel, Dernabch/Meaker and at least one of Finn/Bresnan would miss out in the test side (that's at least 6, maybe 7). Seems like FoF's first response was the right one, "completely different" side.

As for records:
Cook, Strauss, KP have decent records in India (average over 40, while for Cook it was his debut series, he's a much better player now). Trott and Morgan have never played tests there, but both had good world cups, suggesting they can play the conditions OK. Bell has a poor record but is a completely different player to the one who last played there. Prior has a very good record for a n°7 batsman.
Bowling wise, Anderson has a fine record for a seamer in India despite being at best half the bowler he is now the last time he played there. Swann's record isn't that bad (compared to other foreign spinners in India certainly), and like Cook it was his debut series. Broad has a poor record, but again is much improved, while Finn/Tremlett/Bresnan have never played tests in India.

So yeah, two guys have poor records, the rest all have OK to very good records in India (those who have played there).

I rest my case.

by ShankyCricket Wed 26 Oct 2011, 1:51 pm

MFC
To add,if Finn plays as the 3rd seamer then We have a seamer who has done well in the ODIS in India.

by Leff Wed 26 Oct 2011, 2:10 pm

England's ODI performance says nothing about its test cricket capability.

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 2:12 pm

Leff wrote:England's ODI performance says nothing about its test cricket capability.

You never know. Did India not suffered defeats in ODI as well in ENgland , considering that we are world champions and very good in ODIs.
Like Cook said that winning is a habit and so is losing Smile

by Guest Wed 26 Oct 2011, 9:12 pm

Jimmy certainly has some unfinished business in the sub contient, and we will beat india in india in the test series!

we are a much different side in the test arena than the odi arena.

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 9:20 pm

that aint gonna happen mate Smile

Only 2 captains managed to win in India in past 20 years - gilly and cronje. No one else. Very difficult and like my post says it will be more likely to end up in heavy defeat.

by djlovesyou Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:06 pm

Are you claiming victory for a test series that isn't even happening?

by wow Wed 26 Oct 2011, 10:14 pm

djlovesyou wrote:Are you claiming victory for a test series that isn't even happening?

No.

by Guest Thu 27 Oct 2011, 9:58 am

wow wrote:that aint gonna happen mate

Only 2 captains managed to win in India in past 20 years - gilly and cronje. No one else. Very difficult and like my post says it will be more likely to end up in heavy defeat.

who cares if only 2 captains have done it. Someone else will do it one day. To be honest, i dont care if your last post says it will be heavy defeat. how do u no. We can win the test series in india, we are no1 in tests, and we can do it!

by wow Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:10 am

cricketfan90 wrote:
wow wrote:that aint gonna happen mate

Only 2 captains managed to win in India in past 20 years - gilly and cronje. No one else. Very difficult and like my post says it will be more likely to end up in heavy defeat.

who cares if only 2 captains have done it. Someone else will do it one day. To be honest, i dont care if your last post says it will be heavy defeat. how do u no. We can win the test series in india, we are no1 in tests, and we can do it!

India was no. 1 test team when we came to play England in England. My worry about English team is that there are no exceptional players. I rate cook as a very good batsman, Trott is a synonym for consistency, KP blows hot and cold, Strauss has good record in India but I am not very convinced with today's strauss. Ian Bell will always struggle in India. English bowlers who were having a dream run in England will never be able to reproduce the same kind of magic in India.

Like DJ sais that it is a hypothetical question and quite irrelevant at the moment. I am glad that we trounced Eng in ODIs.

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:27 am

No exceptional players? Jesus, I'd like to know what is an exceptional player, then.

We have something like 4 of the 10 best bats in the world, and 3 or 4 of the best 10 bowlers, too.

KP is exceptional, no doubts there. Bell, in recent times is exceptional, too. Strauss and Cook are very good, as is Trott.

Anderson is exceptional in the bowling department, and so has Swann been in the last two years.

by Guest Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:27 am

right our test side and how good they are, just for you wow!

Strauss-Solid at the top, getting better as captain
Cook-Class test batsman record shows it
Trott-Class batsman
KP-Might blow hot and cold, but his test form is on the up
Eoin Morgan-Always brilliant to have in india
Ian Bell-Have you not seen him play test cricket before?
Matt Prior-Best wicket keeper batsman in test cricket at the moment
Swann-Best spinner in world cricket playing at the moment
Bresnan-Very good allrounder
Broad-Very talented bowler, can change the course of a game with one spell(oval-2009)
Anderson-Best swing bowler playing at the moment

so it makes your post above seem pretty poor to be honest.

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:35 am

I'm going to defend wow here (odd but there you go, check for flying pigs quickly lol) and say he actually has a point. England don't have any "great" players (ie they don't have a Tendulkar or a Dravid or a Kallis or a Ponting or even a Steyn), though maybe in a couple of years a few of them could be in that bracket (Swann, Cook, Trott, Bell at least). However what they do have is a team of 11 "very good" test players, there's no weak link (which every other team has, usually at least two of them), hence why we're the best test team in the world.

by wow Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:42 am

right our test side and how good they are, just for you wow!

Strauss-Solid at the top, getting better as captain- solid questionable but a very good captain.
Cook-Class test batsman record shows it- agreed
Trott-Class batsman- tes, but not exceptional, still has quite a lot to prove
KP-Might blow hot and cold, but his test form is on the up- agreed
Eoin Morgan-Always brilliant to have in india- tests?
Ian Bell-Have you not seen him play test cricket before?- he was the yesteryears bopara but perception changes very quickly

Matt Prior-Best wicket keeper batsman in test cricket at the moment- the main difference between odi and tests
Swann-Best spinner in world cricket playing at the moment- yeah but struggles in india.

Bresnan-Very good allrounder- i will take very good out of it, maybe in eng conditions, i really doubt that he will do well in india

Broad-Very talented bowler, can change the course of a game with one spell(oval-2009)- injured

Anderson-Best swing bowler playing at the moment- playing in india?

so it makes your post above seem pretty poor to be honest.[/quote] not really angel

by Hoggy_Bear Thu 27 Oct 2011, 11:37 am

wow wrote:right our test side and how good they are, just for you wow!

Strauss-Solid at the top, getting better as captain- solid questionable but a very good captain.
Why is Strauss not a solid opener?

Cook-Class test batsman record shows it- agreed

Trott-Class batsman- tes, but not exceptional, still has quite a lot to prove
Average of 57. Pretty exceptional.

KP-Might blow hot and cold, but his test form is on the up- agreed

Eoin Morgan-Always brilliant to have in india- tests?
Agreed. Has something to prove in tests.

Ian Bell-Have you not seen him play test cricket before?- he was the yesteryears bopara but perception changes very quickly
Always been better than Bopara. In the form of his life.

Matt Prior-Best wicket keeper batsman in test cricket at the moment- the main difference between odi and tests
We're talking tests

Swann-Best spinner in world cricket playing at the moment- yeah but struggles in india.
In ODIs maybe. Hasn't played tests in India for a while. Agree he has something to prove.

Bresnan-Very good allrounder- i will take very good out of it, maybe in eng conditions, i really doubt that he will do well in india
Why? He got more out of Bangladeshi pitches than our other seamers

Broad-Very talented bowler, can change the course of a game with one spell(oval-2009)- injured
Finn in his place then.

Anderson-Best swing bowler playing at the moment- playing in india?
He has a half decent test record in India.

so it makes your post above seem pretty poor to be honest.

not really angel

[/quote]

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 27 Oct 2011, 11:44 am

I do think England would have turned up better prepared and more switched on had there been a test series. But even then the manner of this spanking speaks volumes about the inability of English (south african?) players to cope with India.

But fortunatly for them the Indians ducked out of this for a money spinning ODI torunament instead. Oh well, their loss.

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