Would old heavyweight champions be cruiserweights now??

First topic message reminder :

As we all know there have been some very small heavyweights in the past but there was no cruiserweight division so they had to fight as heavyweights! This makes a big difference if you think about it. Look at Haye for example he was mainly a cruiserweight who moved t heavyweight but nowadays the heavyweights are massive. I think he would have had a much better chance in the old days when they were smaller becuase even though he was a cruiserweight now he would have been heavyweight back then. How do people think he would have done? Would he have been a heavyweight champion in the past. Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey if he fought now he would probably be a cruiserweight himself so this match could happen if it was in modern times. What do people think?

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Haye too much speed and skill?



He's not a skillster. He has never been a skillster. He will never be a skillster.

And speed? A guy who can only fight for 1 minute a round vs the guy who produced one of the most brutal performances ever seen at HW. Dempsey Willard was quick. Haye-Valuev/Ruiz/Mormeck/Klitschko weren't quick.

oxring wrote:Haye too much speed and skill?



He's not a skillster. He has never been a skillster. He will never be a skillster.

And speed? A guy who can only fight for 1 minute a round vs the guy who produced one of the most brutal performances ever seen at HW. Dempsey Willard was quick. Haye-Valuev/Ruiz/Mormeck/Klitschko weren't quick.

Haye was very quick against those guys imo he did not get hit much at all not sure why you think he is not quick??

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

windy reread some of the things he has said...
if you cant see hes on the windup then i pity you...
he repeats everything a million times if you cant see it then my god...

Well, there is a more innocent explanation, Alex.

I'm sure you know what I mean.

Waingro wrote:

oxring wrote:Haye too much speed and skill?



He's not a skillster. He has never been a skillster. He will never be a skillster.

And speed? A guy who can only fight for 1 minute a round vs the guy who produced one of the most brutal performances ever seen at HW. Dempsey Willard was quick. Haye-Valuev/Ruiz/Mormeck/Klitschko weren't quick.

Haye was very quick against those guys imo he did not get hit much at all not sure why you think he is not quick??

Waingro - I like to pretend you're not on the Windup. I know that you are and I applaud your continued trolling efforts. However, you are providing me with cheap entertainment - you should at least charge for your efforts.

Dempsey is in a different league in terms of speed. Haye didn't get hit much by Valuev - who was terrifyingly slow. He was hit enough times to lose against Klitschko, whilst not being quick enough to get any of his own shots off in return. Klitschko is no Cassius Clay. Ruiz hit him far too many times for a man who hardly laid a glove in anger on RJJ. Mormeck decked him.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Not sure mate how do you measure?? I know he was a small heavyweight and he did not fight black challengers that is the point I am making not sure why he would beat Haye easily tbh?? They were similar size I think Haye was bigger but there was no cruiswerweight division when Dempsey was a boxer so if he was around today maybe he would be a cruiserweight it would be alot tougher having to fight huge guys like Valuev and Klichko and Lewis or Tyson would destroy him imo.

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Not sure mate how do you measure?? I know he was a small heavyweight and he did not fight black challengers that is the point I am making not sure why he would beat Haye easily tbh?? They were similar size I think Haye was bigger but there was no cruiswerweight division when Dempsey was a boxer so if he was around today maybe he would be a cruiserweight it would be alot tougher having to fight huge guys like Valuev and Klichko and Lewis or Tyson would destroy him imo.

In other words, the answer to my question is that you know the square root of sod all about Dempsey.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Not sure mate how do you measure?? I know he was a small heavyweight and he did not fight black challengers that is the point I am making not sure why he would beat Haye easily tbh?? They were similar size I think Haye was bigger but there was no cruiswerweight division when Dempsey was a boxer so if he was around today maybe he would be a cruiserweight it would be alot tougher having to fight huge guys like Valuev and Klichko and Lewis or Tyson would destroy him imo.

In other words, the answer to my question is that you know the square root of sod all about Dempsey.

To be fair Waingro has a point Dempsey would have struggled with Lewis or either Klitschko just because of how much bigger they were than him along with their ability. Tyson I wouldn't back to beat Dempsey though physically Tyson may be heavier but Dempsey could take a shot and would never have been intimidated by Tyson and that was half the battle.

Kev - Dempsey knocked out Drake in 1 round - Drake at 257. He then destroyed Willard in 3 - Willard at 245. Willard HW champ at the time.

Remind me - too big...?

prettyboykev wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Not sure mate how do you measure?? I know he was a small heavyweight and he did not fight black challengers that is the point I am making not sure why he would beat Haye easily tbh?? They were similar size I think Haye was bigger but there was no cruiswerweight division when Dempsey was a boxer so if he was around today maybe he would be a cruiserweight it would be alot tougher having to fight huge guys like Valuev and Klichko and Lewis or Tyson would destroy him imo.

In other words, the answer to my question is that you know the square root of sod all about Dempsey.

To be fair Waingro has a point Dempsey would have struggled with Lewis or either Klitschko just because of how much bigger they were than him along with their ability. Tyson I wouldn't back to beat Dempsey though physically Tyson may be heavier but Dempsey could take a shot and would never have been intimidated by Tyson and that was half the battle.

You mean, like Mercer struggled with Lewis. Or Holyfield, second time out?

oxring wrote:Kev - Dempsey knocked out Drake in 1 round - Drake at 257. He then destroyed Willard in 3 - Willard at 245. Willard HW champ at the time.

Remind me - too big...?

I did say size along with their ability. The latter being something that Willard and Drake can't match.

Mercer had 50 pounds on Dempsey, and Holyfield 25.

Yeah Ive got to say although Waingro doesnt seem to be able get over Dempsey not facing black opponents it is a fair point which isnt exactly invalid. His issue about the sizing also has a point.

I dont think Haye beats Dempsey but I do think the Klitschkos could well beat him and comparing Willard to them is a bit of an insult to the brothers who I think were far better.

Scottrf wrote:Mercer had 50 pounds on Dempsey, and Holyfield 25.

Dempsey, in tale of the tape, was as big as Holyfield in almost every statistic when Holy was a cruiser. If Holy could bulk up, so could Dempsey, and Dempsey had the style to give Lewis kittens.

Lewis could win, but so could Dempsey.

Haye would stand next to zero chance with Lewis.

HumanWindmill wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Not sure mate how do you measure?? I know he was a small heavyweight and he did not fight black challengers that is the point I am making not sure why he would beat Haye easily tbh?? They were similar size I think Haye was bigger but there was no cruiswerweight division when Dempsey was a boxer so if he was around today maybe he would be a cruiserweight it would be alot tougher having to fight huge guys like Valuev and Klichko and Lewis or Tyson would destroy him imo.

In other words, the answer to my question is that you know the square root of sod all about Dempsey.

To be fair Waingro has a point Dempsey would have struggled with Lewis or either Klitschko just because of how much bigger they were than him along with their ability. Tyson I wouldn't back to beat Dempsey though physically Tyson may be heavier but Dempsey could take a shot and would never have been intimidated by Tyson and that was half the battle.

You mean, like Mercer struggled with Lewis. Or Holyfield, second time out?

Windy on his day Lewis would have been a nightmare for any Heavyweight in the history of the division. His size and talent would have been tough for Dempsey to overcome. I thought you would have pulled me up over the Klitschkos and not Lewis tbh.

HumanWindmill wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Waingro wrote:

rowley wrote:

Waingro wrote: Lets be honest he was not going to beat Ali or Tyson they have far too much quality but I reckon he would have too much skill and speed for guys like Dempsey

Dempsey would make mincemeat of Haye.

Im not sure mate I think it would be a close fight lets not forget that Dempsey did not even fight black challengers so how can we be sure he would easily beat Haye? I think Haye would have too much speed and skill for Dempsey although Dempsey was a heavyweight he was not that big he would just be a cruiserweight now tbh Haye was probably bigger that is why I am asking if old time heavyweights would just be cruiserweights now??

Serious questions, Waingro.

How many Dempsey fights have you seen, and how much do you really know about him, apart from the fact that he didn't fight Harry Wills?

Not sure mate how do you measure?? I know he was a small heavyweight and he did not fight black challengers that is the point I am making not sure why he would beat Haye easily tbh?? They were similar size I think Haye was bigger but there was no cruiswerweight division when Dempsey was a boxer so if he was around today maybe he would be a cruiserweight it would be alot tougher having to fight huge guys like Valuev and Klichko and Lewis or Tyson would destroy him imo.

In other words, the answer to my question is that you know the square root of sod all about Dempsey.

To be fair Waingro has a point Dempsey would have struggled with Lewis or either Klitschko just because of how much bigger they were than him along with their ability. Tyson I wouldn't back to beat Dempsey though physically Tyson may be heavier but Dempsey could take a shot and would never have been intimidated by Tyson and that was half the battle.

You mean, like Mercer struggled with Lewis. Or Holyfield, second time out?

Windy on his day Lewis would have been a nightmare for any Heavyweight in the history of the division. His size and talent would have been tough for Dempsey to overcome. I thought you would have pulled me up over the Klitschkos and not Lewis tbh.

Normally we deal with the boxers are they are not try and predict how they would deal with added weight. He may turn bulky and slow and it might impact on his stamina.

You can say that again, kev.

My point was so good I had to make it twice.

Manos, I'm not suggesting Tunney was a natural heavyweight by modern standards. Am recalling this off the top of my head but am sure Tunney weighed 203lbs for his fight with Heeney. His rise to that weight had been entirely organic and he was suited to that weight. If you look at his career he was gradually getting heavier with the passage of time. Indeed his series with Greb shows that Tunney was outgrowing Greb and became too big for Greb. I may be wrong but fairly sure Tunney weighed in over 180lbs for many of his later per Dempsey fights and by the second Dempsey fight was the bigger man. Pictures of Tunney and Dempsey together illustrate this clearly.

superflyweight wrote:Manos, I'm not suggesting Tunney was a natural heavyweight by modern standards. Am recalling this off the top of my head but am sure Tunney weighed 203lbs for his fight with Heeney. His rise to that weight had been entirely organic and he was suited to that weight. If you look at his career he was gradually getting heavier with the passage of time. Indeed his series with Greb shows that Tunney was outgrowing Greb and s

According to boxrec Tunneys career heaviest was 192 in his final fight with Heeney. Not sure if thats correct though. Hes basically a lightheavy until he moves up to heavyweight and then he bulks up about 14 pounds for his Dempsey fights. Personally I would consider him a natural light heavyweight.

I think if you considering his chances or liklihood of competiting at heavyweight in modern terms then I would have to look at as to how natural a heavyweight he is by modern terms. And in that regard I think hes on the awfully small side in comparison with the champions at the moment. He was primarily a light heavyweight over his career so to be a heavyweight today he would have to put on at least 25 pounds and that would still leave him well outsized by a Lewis, Klitschko, Bowe or the more modern larger heavyweights.

To fight Demspey for the heavyweight title in the 20s, Tunney, as a light heavyweight, knew he could put on 14 pounds and not really be giving away more than a few pounds against Dempsey. Consider hes in the same position today, a light heavyweight champion. He has to put on about 25/30 pounds to step up to heavyweight and even doing that hes still sure to be outsized by about 40 pounds and 6 inches in height. I just dont see the tempatation being nearly as big and the circumstances are so different.

Tunney was growing into a natural heavyweight of that era. The pictures show this
It makes him small by the fat boy standards of today but not then.
He was far closer to Dempsey than Greb in terms of natural fighting weight and that makes him a heavy for me
Not sure who that supports but boxrec is pretty innacurate weight wise for back then so i go on how a fighter looked .

skidd1 wrote:Tunney was growing into a natural heavyweight of that era. The pictures show this
It makes him small by the fat boy standards of today but not then.
He was far closer to Dempsey than Greb in terms of natural fighting weight and that makes him a heavy for me
Not sure who that supports but boxrec is pretty innacurate weight wise for back then so i go on how a fighter looked .

Boxrec support hims getting bigger as he moved to heavyweight, but just not that he ever weighed more than 192 lbs. Im not sure many people would be able to tell the difference between a fighter weighing 192 and 202 based on black and white films of those days so I would have to take boxrec on it as being ok seeing as the weight makes sense in comparison to his weights for the Dempsey fights. Weighing 202lbs for his fight with Heeney would make him a 15 lbs heavier than he was against Dempsey. He became a heavyweight in those days, I wouldnt doubt that. But he grew into the weight class. To me this doesnt really make him a "natural" heavyweight but more a bulked up light heavyweight.

My point was would he bother trying nowadays? The weight gap he had to bridge when Dempsey was fighting was less than 20 lbs from light heavy to heavy. Not a huge deal. Nowadays it would be close to 70lbs. The reason I think these light heavies like Charles, Fitzsimmons, Tunney etc stepped up to heavyweight was because the existing champion wasnt all that much bigger if they just bulked up a bit. Nowadays even if they did bulk up significantly they would still be massively outsized.

Those box rec weights are not consistent with other accounts I've read of those fights, Manos. I can't remember the source but I'm sure he weighed somewhere in the 190s for the 2nd fight with Dempsey and he was just over 200lbs for the fight with Heeney.

I take your point though, Tunney was too smart to take on a fight where he considered he had no chance and it's doubtful that he would have moved beyond light heavyweight if fighting today. Take away Wlad and Vitali though, and he may have been tempted. As I said above, if RJJ, who was naturally smaller than Tunney, can move up and take out Ruiz, there's nothing to suggest that Tunney couldn't have done likewise.

superflyweight wrote:Those box rec weights are not consistent with other accounts I've read of those fights, Manos. I can't remember the source but I'm sure he weighed somewhere in the 190s for the 2nd fight with Dempsey and he was just over 200lbs for the fight with Heeney.

I take your point though, Tunney was too smart to take on a fight where he considered he had no chance and it's doubtful that he would have moved beyond light heavyweight if fighting today. Take away Wlad and Vitali though, and he may have been tempted. As I said above, if RJJ, who was naturally smaller than Tunney, can move up and take out Ruiz, there's nothing to suggest that Tunney couldn't have done likewise.

Ive had a look for those weights online but all I can find to quote are boxrec and the Boston Globe which both have him at 192lb. Are you sure you its not Heenans weight you are thinking of as both of those sources also have him listed as 203lbs?

Either way, I think we are probably in agreement. I think if John Ruiz was the world heavyweight champion then perhaps Tunney would consider the step up as Ruiz just isnt all that good. It was really just a peice of opportunism by Jones to move up and capture the belt, while despite being highly impressive for someone who was a middleweight initially is not really on a par with beating a peak Lewis, Klitschko, Tyson etc. The fact that Jones didnt remain at heavyweight I think tells its own story.

Likewise Im not really convinced if "the man" at the weight was a 240 6,5 plus champion that Tunney would be tempted to move from light heavyweight.

The weights may have come from Jack Kavanaugh's biography of Tunney but equally my memory may be playing tricks on me.

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Those box rec weights are not consistent with other accounts I've read of those fights, Manos. I can't remember the source but I'm sure he weighed somewhere in the 190s for the 2nd fight with Dempsey and he was just over 200lbs for the fight with Heeney.

I take your point though, Tunney was too smart to take on a fight where he considered he had no chance and it's doubtful that he would have moved beyond light heavyweight if fighting today. Take away Wlad and Vitali though, and he may have been tempted. As I said above, if RJJ, who was naturally smaller than Tunney, can move up and take out Ruiz, there's nothing to suggest that Tunney couldn't have done likewise.

Ive had a look for those weights online but all I can find to quote are boxrec and the Boston Globe which both have him at 192lb. Are you sure you its not Heenans weight you are thinking of as both of those sources also have him listed as 203lbs?

Either way, I think we are probably in agreement. I think if John Ruiz was the world heavyweight champion then perhaps Tunney would consider the step up as Ruiz just isnt all that good. It was really just a peice of opportunism by Jones to move up and capture the belt, while despite being highly impressive for someone who was a middleweight initially is not really on a par with beating a peak Lewis, Klitschko, Tyson etc. The fact that Jones didnt remain at heavyweight I think tells its own story.

Likewise Im not really convinced if "the man" at the weight was a 240 6,5 plus champion that Tunney would be tempted to move from light heavyweight.

Agreed. Tunney looks at W Klitschko and realises that despite the criticism, he is a man who is hard to hit, has a hard fast jab and knows how to use his reach and weight advantage and thinks - I'll come down and pick on people my own size! I'm not sure he would even fight some of the others - Like Peters or Sanders even though they aren't particularly great. Ruiz is just a gutsy journeyman who gritted hs teeth and kept going in a relatively poor division to take that title, its why RJJ chose to fight him.