Rebuilding the pro clubs and structure in Scottish rugby.

Lunch time always gives ample time to perruse the rugby sections of all the big papers. A very interesting article in the Scotsman is a proposal being put to the SRU by Bob Carruthers regarding the state of the Pro game in Scotland and trying to rewind the clock back to the days when the Cally Reds used to get 4000 fans at McDiarmid park in Perth by giving inversters and consortiums a chance to pump money into the clubs to get results and thus relieving the SRU of the Financial burden of supporting them.

Rugby: Bob set on a return to rebuild pro game

To be honest I'm not 100% sure if this would work. I think for investors the state of the pro game in Scotland would translate for too long a time period before they can get returns on investments. Or am I catching the wrong end of the stick and Advertising on shirts and at the stadia will raise the revenue?

I know for a fact that Aberdeen Asset Management shelled out a significant lump of money to keep Ross Ford at Edinburgh, a good move IMO. Was this the door starting to creak open to let investors and companies contribute financialy to the pro game in Scotland? Or was this a one off?

Finally what do the posters on 606V2 make of Carruthers propsals? Are they workable and if they are, whats the the chances of the SRU running with them?

Radge, it's difficult to speculate too much without knowing the details, but on the face of it Carruthers is essentially saying to the SRU, give up control of the clubs and let private finance takes over the challenge. Interesting idea and you can see why they'd want the quid pro quo, but are there really enough entrepreneurs prepared to part with their cash to support 4 teams? I'd be delighted if that was the case, but remain a wee bit scpetical

Perhaps Trumpy Pumpy would throw a few mill the Reds way?

In any case, it would start a long ongoing arguement with regards to player release between the club owners and the SRU.

Emulate the Irish set up and get some folk in who actually know how to market the game.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Perhaps Trumpy Pumpy would throw a few mill the Reds way?

In any case, it would start a long ongoing argument with regards to player release between the club owners and the SRU.

Emulate the Irish set up and get some folk in who actually know how to market the game.

Tattie, reckon that can be sorted out with a solid agreement, other nations seem to make it work, and to be honest, it would be a nice problem to have, eh?!

Tattie Scones RRN wrote: get some folk in who actually know how to market the game.

This is my gripe too. The SRU are doing some good stuff now (someone mentioned some of it on another thread - yes I am being that vague...) but they have done a god awful job promoting the clubs, especially Glasgow. How much does it cost to flyer the cr@p out of the unis for freshers week for example? Not a lot I'd say and you'd soon make it back and more from the attendances.

Two new teams are going to cost him £10m a year and that is just to get them half competitive in the Pro 12.

Finding that sort of cash, make be hard but probably easier than finding another 60 odd Scottish Professionals, who are good enough to compete at the Pro Level. Oh and also finding a place for the two new teams to play. Can't see the Pro 12 becoming 14 anytime soon and whose place in Europe do they take.

He would be better off, just making out a £5m a year cheque to Glasgow

Well Dot, considering the SRU want to make rugby the No 1 chosen sport in schools, give it 10 years and we'll need another five new clubs!

At present we have countless players rotting on benches or even outwith that who have a contract but are not playing. If they played more, they'd improve in all aspects of the game making each team competitive. Introduce finishing places between the Scots clubs linking to the difference between HC or Amlin Cup and the stakes are raised.

Either that or some kind of 'state of origin' type regional competition.

Seems oh so simple on this forum though. I'm sure there are plenty of genuine reasons why the game is in such a mess.

Never mind.....time is a great healer.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:At present we have countless players rotting on benches or even outwith that who have a contract but are not playing.

I keep hearing this argument and I'm not sure I buy it. Who are these scores of good players missing out on professional rugby because we only have two clubs? Given the utter mediocrity we've seen not only the benches but in the 1st XVs as well at Edinburgh and Glasgow over the last couple of seasons, I'm not convinced.

The Exile population is growing, but in tandem the quality of the pro sides has waned slightly. Good young players coming through, but I'd say the decent ones are certainly getting opportunities, just look at the Edinburgh side at the weekend.

Given the state of the Edinburgh and Glasgow squads at the moment (and the Heineken Cup will throw into stark relief where we are against our peers), I dread to think how ropey a 3rd professional side would be, made up of those players who can't get a game for Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Resources need to be put into the existing professional sides. We need to increase their support and build those brands first, before weakening the squads. Quality not quantity is what Scotland need. There are plenty of options, just not enough top class players reaching international class.

I'd say the SRU must now be able to look at reforming a 3rd pro team, nor by themselves but as a privatised one,

think Melborne Rebels, Private them in Aus, same as Welsh regions to an extent.

Give him permission to set up 3rd team, private, but limit NSQ players (more at founding decease over time), and agree player release. Then let him get on with what he says he'll do, if in 5 years or so it's looking a success allow a 4th team to be set up privately.

But always keep Glasgow and Edinburgh under SRU control, so if there is a fall out etc, Scotland will always have two teams.

Kingshu wrote:Give him permission to set up 3rd team, private, but limit NSQ players (more at founding decease over time), and agree player release. Then let him get on with what he says he'll do, if in 5 years or so it's looking a success allow a 4th team to be set up privately.

But always keep Glasgow and Edinburgh under SRU control, so if there is a fall out etc, Scotland will always have two teams.

You are unlikely to have it both ways. If you're asking someone to plough their hard-earned cash into a venture, telling them they have to limit the number of NSQs in that side AND telling them their best Scottish players will be away half the year is hardly going to be a tastey commercial proposition.

Assuming Glasgow and Edinburgh remain, as per your proposal, where would this new private venture be in any case? Not sure it would be commercially viable in a place like Aberdeen. You'd basically need a very rich man with a love of rugby to invest. Unlikely to be a profitable venture, or successful on the field, not without a lot of investment (and losses).

FES

I didn't state the players were good. That's the argument - they aren't that good and never will be without proper game time.

What resources need to be out into the professional teams? You talk of increasing support so I presume you mean from an admin point of view. There are plenty of players in each squad as it is (good and not good) so there is no need to fund more players in each of the teams.

The Borders didn't work because:

a) the SRU didn't really give a t0ss about them
b)the SRU didn't have the money to keep them going
c)the folk from the Borders didn't really give a t0ss about them

So give another area the chance to work with pivate investors so that the money is there and players get a chance to play competitive rugby. More importantly, give the team(s) time to develop instead of writing them off after two poor seasons.

Oh...and we also need investment in coaching and refereeing while we're at it.

The game and number of pro teams can grow if the right people are given the right jobs to do within the whole structure.

Just a shame I probably won't be around to see it

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Give him permission to set up 3rd team, private, but limit NSQ players (more at founding decease over time), and agree player release. Then let him get on with what he says he'll do, if in 5 years or so it's looking a success allow a 4th team to be set up privately.

But always keep Glasgow and Edinburgh under SRU control, so if there is a fall out etc, Scotland will always have two teams.

You are unlikely to have it both ways. If you're asking someone to plough their hard-earned cash into a venture, telling them they have to limit the number of NSQs in that side AND telling them their best Scottish players will be away half the year is hardly going to be a tastey commercial proposition.

Assuming Glasgow and Edinburgh remain, as per your proposal, where would this new private venture be in any case? Not sure it would be commercially viable in a place like Aberdeen. You'd basically need a very rich man with a love of rugby to invest. Unlikely to be a profitable venture, or successful on the field, not without a lot of investment (and losses).

Works for Melbourne Rebels in the Super 15, why not Scotland.
They will be money grated to them by the SRU but this will be agreed, and part of getting their Celtic league lincense from th eSRU is to agree to this.
Let yer man who want to open the region do a viablity check on where to open the region, if he wants to go ahead, SRU grant him lincense and some funding, and let him tear away, if it works SRU have 3rd team to pick players from, if not they lose only the outlay.

I mean increasing the number of fans going to rugby matches. That for me is the key to improving Scottish rugby.

Increase the fanbase and you increase interest in the sport. Do that and the two pro sides become [more] profitable, can afford better players (or two retain their best players) and are more successful. Do that, and families and kids start to play it more. Do that and the playing numbers increase. It's the key to everything.

Setting up a 3rd side isn't the right thing to do right now. I don't think simply by giving average players more exposure to professional rugby they become better players. Why on earth should the Rabo12 tolerate some rubbish feeder side from Scotland full of players who can't even make the Edinburgh and Glasgow sides, who themselves already struggle in that league?

I'd only back a 3rd side if Edinburgh and Glasgow were genuinely competing at both Rabo12 and HC level, and I felt the lack of a 3rd side was stifling opportunities for capable players in Scotland.

Kingshu wrote:Works for Melbourne Rebels in the Super 15, why not Scotland.
They will be money grated to them by the SRU but this will be agreed, and part of getting their Celtic league lincense from th eSRU is to agree to this.
Let yer man who want to open the region do a viablity check on where to open the region, if he wants to go ahead, SRU grant him lincense and some funding, and let him tear away, if it works SRU have 3rd team to pick players from, if not they lose only the outlay.

Where in Scotland do you think you'd find equivalent support for a rugby union side as Melbourne? They get around 20,000 fans watching them each match. That's why it's entirely different.

The suggestion of removing control of the Scottish teams from the SRU is a step in the right direction, in my mind, to improving rugby in Scotland. This frees up a lot of time and money for the SRU to concentrate on promoting the games around the country, improving the amateur club level by increasing funding, bringing in better coaches for the national team or setting up a recognised coaching designation for school and university coaches. If the SRU are serious about making rugby the sport of choice in schools then they need to get kids into games. Give schools free tickets, subsidize them if need be, but get them in the ground. This may not be what investors want to see, they’d rather have 4000 paying customers than 2000. But investing in supporters is as important as investing in the team, they don’t exist without each other. I’m sure the players would rather play in front of a full house, whether they’re paying customers or not.

They’d be foolish to attempt to introduce two new teams without first testing private investment on Glasgow and Edinburgh. As previously mentioned in this thread, these new teams wouldn’t have access to the Pro12 or HC and would be stuck playing “friendlies” or maybe taking part in the LV cup for a few years. That prospect isn’t going to attract good players or the desired crowds. The correct model has to be established and if we see an improvement in the quality of rugby in Scotland, then we can think about additional teams.

First off I can see both sides of the argument here but I have some points to get across.

1) FES argues that the players are not good enough at Edinburgh and Glasgow and this is probably true in some cases. I do ask myself what are the chances of very good youngsters even getting to see let alone learn from good coaches on a regular basis unless you play for one of the private schools or are lucky enough to have a good club on your doorstep ? The levels to which young players are exposed to pro coaches and training methods is clear for all to see at age grades.
I know any really good youngsters produced for my club in the Scotland were given scholarships to private schools if they wanted to go any further at a really young age. How many have been missed or did not shine at 13 years old so were never picked up ?? More teams means more exposure not just to pro rugby but hopefully pro coaches and environments for all not just the rich and lucky ones.

2) I agree we need to increase the fan base of both the pro clubs but lets be honest unless you live in the central belt the chances of seeing them are really slim especially the Friday games and on the Saturday many people who are interested in rugby are either playing or supporting their local club. This being the case yes I would hope that it would increase interest in the central belt and the playing numbers there, but if you think it will have any effect outside this are and be the savior of Scottish rugby I think you may be wrong.

3) I think we need to sort the problem of only having 2 teams and exile players to make up our national team or I can see us standing still and falling further behind the nations ranked around us as the game grows internationally. With the finances of the SRU this will not be an easy task and I am not sure it is one we will solve quickly enough.

4) I think Scotland has to ask itself where does sport fit within our society? This is not a new question and is being asked throughout sports within Scotland as we seem to be a nation of watchers not doers. We are happier to sit and watch Sport in the pub or at home, how many adults participate in any type of sport after the age of 16-18 and I don't mean darts and snooker? It is not a coincidence that countries which actively participate in a number of sports and produce natural athletes tend to be the best. Unfortunately unless there is a major cultural shift that is not going to happen in my lifetime.

Anyway enough of the doom and lets hope that we see a few wins this weekend

More on Carruthers' proposal in the Herald: BC

I have to agree more with SGD than FES

one privatised team seams to be the solution.

1st Melborne rebels can get 20,000 but the current pro teams don't get near that so that can't be used as an argument against it. The pro teams get 3500-4000 on average, the 3rd private team would be aiming to match or better that, (not such a big ask).

spending money on the current pro teams only benefits players/supporters in the Glasgow/Edinburgh area, and only grows support there. As point 2 by sgd prop says. It won't save Scottish rugby.

Creating a third team increases the fan base further (which may help with Scotland support) a Private team will create it's own acadamy, focasing on Scottish players as it will have a NSQ limit, these are kids that would prob have been missed by Glasgow and Edinburgh, and will result in more young palyers getting a high standard of coaching.

A privte teams acamady may focus of good forgein young players and bring them over so they are Scottish qualifed by the age of 20, (this may be unethical to some, but it's a private company out to do the best it can within the laws of the game), but mostly it will develop local young talent.

You can say that Scotland doesn't produce enough players for a third team, but Scotland has really only one acadamy producing players. if it had two, or three acadamies for the last 10 years, it may have produced enough quality players for maybe 4 teams.

Irealand and Wales have four teams each and 4 acadamies each. Scotland have 2 teams and one acadamy, you can see now why there arn't enough players being produced, a third acamady will result in more players of quality coming through.

A private team will market themselves professionally, tring to get sponsorship and attendance up, and push the two current pro teams for h-cup qualifation, making the SRU up it's game in turn.

overall i see a lot of Pluses for the SRU to allow one pro private team, and it will cost them only a little of the outlay to grant a private lincense than doing it themselves

You know what really grinds my gears about this sort of stuff?

It's the fact that big buisness men like Carruthers are all talk and no follow through. Saying this stuff is all well and good, a bit like when I go off to watch the rugby I tell the Mrs "no no I won't get that drunk!". The words hold absolutley no weight unless what is said is carried out. Just because I say it, it doesn't neccesarily make it so. Likewise with Carruthers big idea.

Don't come at the SRU with proposals and Ideas. Come to the SRU with a big briefcase of money or your cheque book. Don't waste their time or our time by making promises you have no intention of honouring.

Same goes for the SRU "exploring" the possibility of Edinburghs move away from the 65000 seater cathedral that is Murrayfield. Don't talk about it..... just do it.

on a totally unrelated note, do the Accies charge for entry to raeburn place? fancy going to watch the game against currie on saturday inbetween studying. Not really worth a thread on its own...

funnyExiledScot wrote:I mean increasing the number of fans going to rugby matches. That for me is the key to improving Scottish rugby.

Increase the fanbase and you increase interest in the sport. Do that and the two pro sides become [more] profitable, can afford better players (or two retain their best players) and are more successful. Do that, and families and kids start to play it more. Do that and the playing numbers increase. It's the key to everything.

Setting up a 3rd side isn't the right thing to do right now. I don't think simply by giving average players more exposure to professional rugby they become better players. Why on earth should the Rabo12 tolerate some rubbish feeder side from Scotland full of players who can't even make the Edinburgh and Glasgow sides, who themselves already struggle in that league?

I'd only back a 3rd side if Edinburgh and Glasgow were genuinely competing at both Rabo12 and HC level, and I felt the lack of a 3rd side was stifling opportunities for capable players in Scotland.

I agree!

Carruthers quote from todays Scotsman "You are looking at £3m-£4m as a base figure for running a pro team per year". Is this guy being serious?

What sort of standard of team does he expect to run on that budget? That's between 20% and 40% less than what is currently spent on the Pro Teams, which is nowhere near enough to keep them competitive.

The fact is that at the moment Scottish rugby needs investment but really the first place that investment should go is to is the existing clubs. But then there's the problem with the fact that the existing clubs can't even support themselves. Although Glasgow may be in a slightly better place after next year with their new arrangement.....

So what to do? Get someone like Carruthers to invest in the clubs? At last count I think Glasgow now have something like 6 major sponsors, (Response, McCrea, Grouse, PV Solar, and another one or two??) And I'm certain Edinburgh have a similar number... Get the students involved? Well Glasgow did have their mascot touring the west end during the GU freshers week so did that make a difference? The ticketing is not hugely expensive either, £10 a match for students £90 for a season ticket so what's the problem...

Glasgow have the local junior teams playing every week at half time, they invite schools teams along and usually there is a good youth prescence at the games, so can more be done to promote it in the schools? Free tickets to the less prestigious games (Aironi, Connacht, Dragons)?

Anyone?

Kingshu - where on earth does the money come from to create this new academy you speak of as well as pay for a professional side competitive enough to convince the Rabo12 to accept it?

Who is going to be in this new squad of players? If you can name me 22 players of sufficient quality not being used by Edinburgh and Glasgow I'll rescind my argument. Oh, and you can't have many (if any) foreign imports because remember the budget being proposed is considerably less than at Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Where is this team going to be based? Which stadium?

It's all very well playing fantasy rugby and saying that if we create a new team and build an academy, then players will come and improve and all will be well, but just isn't realistic. It isn't financially realistic, realistic from a rugby playing perspective and nor do I think the Rabo12 will be falling over themselves to have yet another Scottish side. The arguments for a new entrant, say a Georgian entrant, are considerably more compelling from a neutrals perspective.

We're all wanting the same outcome here, but no-one seems to have a convincing case here for a viable 3rd professional side.

Carruthers may not be the ideal person to lead a Pro team and the argument for consolidating what we have, rather than stretching ourselves too thinly, must be heard.

But at least he is getting the debate started again. We need people like Carruthers to use their profile and gain column inches. And if he can encourage other investors to sign up then I'm even more in favour. Kennedy and Carruthers are cut from the same cloth, lets get some more of their ilk involved.

OK for a start FES I don't have all the answers, where the team is based and stadium is down to Carruthers, after he has his team do viability checks in numerous areas (even looking at London Scottish as a possible?), I'm not in a position to say without that. Aberdeen is a possible, but again let the professionals, do their market research and viabilty checks to come to that conclusion.

Carruthers seems to think there is a market for it let him look into it.

All I'm suggesting is the SRU annonce that they are accepting bids for a ownership licence, and let the private companies/entrepreneurs put in bids for it. Set a strict financial critrea, releastic growth targets etc. If no one comes up with a valid model the SRU lose very little and at least look like they are trying new ideas. If someone comes up with a valid proposal, everyone wins.

Two models that they could bid for;

1) entry straight into Celtic League, (license holder would need to show plenty of capitial), allowed about 15 NSQ players but this is reduced over 10 years to 5 NSQ, while acamady is being set up and producing players. Team is set up like the Welsh model, ie, private owner, but SRU makes contributions (Welsh regions recieve 5/6 million a year from WRU, obviously the SRU can afford less, but this will be agreed on giving the license). License agreed agrees NSQ player limit, player release, and how much the SRU will contribute over a set period of time.

2) start at ground level (like RGC1404 were) set up team in Scottish league, with aim of entry to Celtic league in 5 years. This gives time for an acamady to be set up and be produsing players, no limit on NSQ players at first but this is reduced over the years, after the 5 years when acamady, training facilities, stadium, board, management, coaches, players are settled and gliches ironed out and then entry into the Celtic League.

I'm not saying that a 3rd region is viable, but if people like Carruthers think so, it is worth investgating. After all he's owned a rugby club before so his opinion is worth something, has anyone who says it's not viable owned a rugby club before?

All I'm suggesting is the SRU, investigate the proposal, and maybe even have people bid for a license to see if it is viable under different models. It's a nothing to lose case.

Kingshu wrote:OK for a start FES After all he's owned a rugby club before so his opinion is worth something, has anyone who says it's not viable owned a rugby club before?

Yeah, he was given a Franchise and caused nothing but chaos with his fights with the SRU, granted I am sure HQ had a lot to do with this.

He refused to allow Edinburgh players to attend training camps etc, If I recall and also let Mossy walk despite being under contract and with the SRU wanting him to stay in Scotland.

I am sure the SRU will need a great deal of persuading before they hand anything over to him.

As has been said above, talk in the media is cheap, show us your cash!

I am actually quietly confident that local businesses would pile into independent professional teams. We're not looking at one massive sponsor (like Travis Perkins with Northampton) but I think that a series of smaller ones is definitely viable.

I think that the main problems have been mentioned above:

1. The club would have to be scraping the top of the available salary cap range to attract players good enough to compete. It is a simple fact that there aren't 22 Scottish players in the Hydro or warming the bench at the pro teams that are good enough to competitively populate it (and exiles playing for good teams like Ansbro, Hines and Brown would not return for a fledgling outfit, nor should they) so this would open the franchise up to aging mercenaries who couldn't give a frick about the shirt. Jerry Collins, anyone?

2. I don't think that anyone has properly nailed down whether the new team should be a reinvention of the Reds or the Reivers. I thought that the lack of support for the Reivers was staggering given where it was based, but the fact remains that borderers apparently would rather see Gala and Melrose than an artificially branded professional franchise. That may change if they start winning, however...

3. I honestly think that the biggest problem has been raised by my erstwhile colleague and favourite curmudgeon* FES. Are we honestly assuming that the Robocop participants would be willing to automatically add another Scottish club to the league with open arms?

A new club equals minimal initial support, poor gate receipts and a 'Marie Celeste' atmosphere for away matches. I don't think that it's good value for anyone to have another Scottish team enter. This has to be looked into first and foremost - otherwise, what's the point? Given the success of the Italian squads, a Georgian, Russian or Romanian team would tick a lot more boxes for the likes of the Ospreys or Leinster.

I do admire the SRU getting off their buftie blazered bahookies and actually try and do something though. An improvement on the previous regime from the very outset.

* Just kidding, big feller.

Playing fantasy rugby for a second (just so I can alleviate my curmudgeon status briefly...........), if I did have lots of dosh (and I mean at least 3 or 4 times the sort of figures currently being mentioned), I'd do the following:

1. Build a new stadium in Perth close to the A9 (15,000 all seater with seats as close to the pitch as humanly possible). Atmosphere would be an absolute priority. There would be an awesome bar with players mandated to attend afterwards. Transport to and from Aberdeen and Inverness would be included in season ticket prices (likely a loss leader to start with).

2. Agree a deal with Aberdeen and Inverness Caley Thistle to play matches in Inverness and Aberdeen as well.

3. Brand the side a "Highland" team and create a catchment triangle of Inverness, Aberdeen and Perth.

4. Spend money on repatriating certain exiles, taking players from Edinburgh and Glasgow and securing a couple of big names for marketing purposes:

1. T Woodcock 2. F Thompson 3. E Murray 4. J Hamilton 5. A Williams 6. A MacDonald 7. R Rennie 8. J Beattie 9. M Blair 10. A Blair 11. M Robertson 12. S Lamont (c) 13. A Grove 14. N Walker 15. R Lamont


The branding for my new "Highland" side would be a flying pig.

Surely more needs to be done with the Borders region that for me is a huge rugby region of Scotland.....

Problem is that they are a loyal bunch in the Borders, and didn't take up the attempt for a professional side last time round. They are also geographically close to Edinburgh.

My preferrence would be to go for a team in the north, but I'm biased being from up there.