Light at the end of the tunnel for the RFU?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/02/martyn-thomas-rfu-stand-down
Report in guardian

They have also stopped the WC investigation - does that mean MJ is safe?

wales606 wrote:They have also stopped the WC investigation - does that mean MJ is safe?

I believe it's just the fran cotton investigation which has been stopped, which lets be honest was a joke of an investigation anyway. i mean it made public his finding before starting the investigation!

I do believe this could be the start of the rebuilding process of the RFU. Let's hope it continues.

Thoughts etc?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15565682.stm

Already posted a thread on this could the threads be amalmagated please
Moderators.

It is good news that things are happening but I fear that the light at the end of the tunnel might well be a train.

I am pretty sure that MJ is safe and to be honest i think that its good for England that MJ retain control for the forseeable future.

He showed his inexperience at the RWC with his inability to control his players and his somewhat odd selections but he will learn from that. What cant be denied is that he is building a team and one that i feel will be a very good team.

Agree, i think we should keep MJ, and i hope he has learnt from his mistakes.....but he must be allowed to change the coaching team...it is absolutely vital....

MJ's inexperience stems from (IMHO) the fact that he still see's himself as one of the lads that play and not as the manager. The RWC will have hit home with him that he has to be the manager now and i am sure that he will learn from it.

Even without Fran Cotton's review, there's still the Professional Game Board review and the Rob Andrew review! MJ not out of the woods by a long shot

That may be so but i honestly feel that Rob Andrew is under more pressure than MJ.

True, he announced that he had a new role publicly, only to be told that he may have jumped the gun

I never saw that, bit of an oops by him then

I think MJ will most likely be pulled up on lack of discipline off the field...some inconsitency through the last few years and a poor performance at the WC.....

However he took over a woeful team, has given a host of youngsters their chances and did get back to back wins against oz and are reigning 6n champions.

I think his position is safe....but if i was MJ, id be fighting to bring in my own coaches.....

My only niggle to contradict all this however:
There have been some suggestions that the coaching is too restricted, etc etc....As head coach / manager, is it not his job to tell his coaches how he wants it......i.e fast ball, slow driving mauls etc.
If so...is their a lack of communication to what he wants and what is being delivered by his coaches....

Leaving out SCW's post-Olympic role, I wonder what Sebastian Coe will want to do in a couple of year's time.

Bringing in a competition like that on time and in budget would be an enormous gold star on his CV. RWC 2015 involvement on at least a part-time basis?

Portnoy wrote:Leaving out SCW's post-Olympic role, I wonder what Sebastian Coe will want to do in a couple of year's time.

Bringing in a competition like that on time and in budget would be an enormous gold star on his CV. RWC 2015 involvement on at least a part-time basis?

It worked for this time around - Martin Snedden went from NZ cricketer* to NZCricket CEO to RWC'11 CEO, and the tournament ran pretty well.


*In those days NZ cricket was only semi-pro so he spent his winters lawyering.

The healing can now begin.

This is really the formal end to the post-2003 hangover. It is about time.

But we need to keep in mind the RFU has three primary roles (all equivalent in importance):
!. England Rugby
2. Support for the Clubs who play in England from U7s to the top level
3. Represents England's interests to the IRB

It is the England Rugby part which has been struggling. The support and engagement with the clubs (leave alone the pro teams) has been good. Player numbers are up, More kids playing with active focus on fun and safety. This is good. I have no real complaints.

Frankly, it is hard to tell how well England have been represented at the IRB, except to say the ELV fiasco has been dealt with and there is a RWC comng. So, probably not too bad either.

The real point is to make sure the top level is managed properly whilst not ruining or forgetting the clubs, players, kids, which is working well.

Please NO SCW again! The chances of him winning 2 RWCs must be less than remote. At the very least he has been out for so long that it would probably take several years before getting back up to speed with the modern game.

MJ is the man if he has the will to continue. His coaches though have failed miserably. Particularly the forwards coaches. Our back row was so poor they were a joke.

Delighted that buffoon Thomas has left the RFU we may have a slim chance now. That should also kick Cotton in to the long grass thank goodness.

I have a feeling that they will give MJ a years rolling contract as they did for Ashton and then see how he does in the 6 Nations. After the Olympics tehy will bring in SCW. Not the best plan for England imo but its what I expect to happen.

I know a lot of the English press are saying Edwards is going to ride to the rescue but this is wha he said yesterday about Wales

From Sky, Edwards admits he is in talks with Wales about remaining with them and insisted it would take something special for him to walk away from his position.

"I spoke to Roger Lewis who's the CEO of Wales and I have a great relationship with Roger and talks are ongoing in that regard," he continued.

"I really did enjoy the Rugby World Cup, I like the people I work with, obviously me and Warren have got a long history.

"I get on well with all the guys and they're a pretty special young team which, over the next few years, could be quite successful so the lure of staying in Wales is quite a strong one."

Did MJ choose to keep these coaches...or were they forced on him?

If its the latter would he choose to change them if given the chance...

That's not light, it's a train coming in the other direction!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:That's not light, it's a train coming in the other direction!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:That's not light, it's a train coming in the other direction!

Bit late lads...!

maestegmafia wrote:It is good news that things are happening but I fear that the light at the end of the tunnel might well be a train.

'MJ is the man if he has the will to continue' - based on what,exactly?
His selection policies?
His lack of coaching qualifications?
His WC record?
The quality rugby his sides produce?


The man's had three years in charge and his team his still a shambles. There is still no discernible pattern of play. The team can't even be called a work in progress, because there hasn't been any progress.

'His coaches though have failed miserably' - How are his coaches to blame but he isn't? I can just imagine MJ being bullied by his coaches into playing in that drab and dull way that they do. I can see the scenario where the coaches force him into choosing a player he doesn't want. I am sure they all ganged up on him to make him take just the one specialist 7 (sort of) to the WC. Watch MJ cower as they insist that he plays what should be his starting 10 at 12.
No, MJ has to carry the can for the team's failures. He should resign and let someone with ideas and ambition take over.

maestegmafia wrote:It is good news that things are happening but I fear that the light at the end of the tunnel might well be a train.

Yawn.

The man's had three years in charge and his team his still a shambles. There is still no discernible pattern of play. The team can't even be called a work in progress, because there hasn't been any progress.

............................................................................................................
Yes you are right 3 years in charge...Is 3 years enough to become a top coach, besides i thought that Martin Johnson was actualy (Manager) and not coach, I could be wrong of course.

But has i posted on another thread is in Martin Johnsons case, is 3 years long enough for a man head coach, manager, to be in the post at all?

Osprey i agree with much of what you say...however i think there is sign of progress....in the sense that we have gone from a woeful team to 6 n champions - and if as you say we are shambles...can only bode well for when we become good.

He has made some curious selections and maybe should have the final say over his coaches performances....but i would keep him there and monitor for another 6 nations....

english_osprey wrote:


The man's had three years in charge and his team his still a shambles. There is still no discernible pattern of play. The team can't even be called a work in progress, because there hasn't been any progress.

I'm sure he managed England to a 6 Nations win this year ? Is that not progress ?

The process has begun.MartynThomas the man who sacked Ashton,Steele,and suppressed the Blackett report has gone.
The Man who appointed an Charismatic Former England Captain
to the role of Manager/Head coach .This person with no Paper qualifications to Coach at any level.Hopefully the other hangers on will go and a viable
RFU be there in his place.
IF Martin Johnson is given a chance,with a free hand to pic his Coaches it seems the New Year at least before this happens.
Last year with a good crop of younger players and Flood at FH England won a 6Ns.Playing sensible balanced Rugby reacting to what is in front of them.
Johnson is or has been loyal to the players from those of 2003 who remained.Sadly they proved past there sale by date.
With the fall of the RFU,presumably the edict of using foreign based players goes with it?
England at Under 20 and A level are as good as any in Europe,have more cash and player base.
Than any one else in the world,RWCs sadly seem to come down to no risk
Rugby,
England there reverted to type,then seemed to develop schizo phrenia in the Q/F with Flood/Wilkinson at 10/12 .Neither seemed to know the game plan.
If we dispose of the golden Oldies,Tindall,Wilkinson,Thompson and Shaw,spend lest time re-cycling SH imports.
Then concentrate on the players we have hopefully progression will follow.
Last year was a step in the right direction,no reason why we cannot build from there.ALL the 6Ns sides will lose players post RWC and will need to adapt.

England rugby fan wrote:

english_osprey wrote:


The man's had three years in charge and his team his still a shambles. There is still no discernible pattern of play. The team can't even be called a work in progress, because there hasn't been any progress.

I'm sure he managed England to a 6 Nations win this year ? Is that not progress ?

Yeah, and back to back wins over Australia too. Wales have lost the away match to the Wallabies now let's see if they can at least win the home fixture? Then we'll see who is making 'progress'.

maestegmafia wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:That's not light, it's a train coming in the other direction!

Bit late lads...!

maestegmafia wrote:It is good news that things are happening but I fear that the light at the end of the tunnel might well be a train.

Argh, that'll teach me to read all the way back thru a thread!! Nice one, maesteg

emack2 wrote:The process has begun.Martyn Shaw the man who sacked Ashton,Steele,and suppressed the Blackett report has gone.

Who ?

englandglory4ever wrote:

England rugby fan wrote:

english_osprey wrote:


The man's had three years in charge and his team his still a shambles. There is still no discernible pattern of play. The team can't even be called a work in progress, because there hasn't been any progress.

I'm sure he managed England to a 6 Nations win this year ? Is that not progress ?

Yeah, and back to back wins over Australia too. Wales have lost the away match to the Wallabies now let's see if they can at least win the home fixture? Then we'll see who is making 'progress'.

That wasn't even an 'away' game for Wales. It was on neutral territory.

And we're ranked eighth in the world now, don't forget that.

If you'd rather laugh at Wales than focus on your own problems, you carry on.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:And we're ranked eighth in the world now, don't forget that.

If you'd rather laugh at Wales than focus on your own problems, you carry on.

England in a mess have still had a better year than Wales (who apparently are absolutely amazing).

I'm delighted for you.

Cheers!

Any time!

Any place

This is a much bigger issue than whether MJ stays or goes, these next few weeks/months will have long lasting effects on the state of English rugby. There is a fantasic opportunity for wiping the slate clean getting a strong board in who can operate a massive institution within the modern era. However all england fans, players,coaches, etc who have a vested interest in the game should have their say and opinions listened to. Alas we dont necessarily get that opportunity.

There are many problems in the game that could be ironed out very quickly if the right people were on board not just the usual 57 old farts. My only worry about making the rfu totally professional is the influence of money men and their lack of empathy for costly things like player development, schools rugby etc. They may also try to squeeze even more money out of us and the only way to show our discord is by walking away making it more of rich mans sport.

I understand that Martin Johnsons contract is up in december, so is that the time that he has to make up his mind whether he want to continue has the England manager/ head coach.

I thought that he only had till the end of next week. If he does decide to carry on, does HE, decide what coaches he wants to work with, or does he not have a choice on his back room staff.

Once the RFU is cleaned out,and hopefully a stable one installed. Martin Johnson will be approached then they will go from there.
Apparently early December we will know,the consensus is he will stay,but the coaches will be replaced.
Only about 6 of the current Squad will probably go.Moody,Haskell,Wilkinson,Tindall ,Thompson,and Shaw.Then hopefully
we can put the RWC behind us and build on last years 6Ns.
The aim should be to have a good squad in place for 2015 RWC,then try to emulate 2003 side.

emack,

I hope that there is not a totally knee-jerk reaction.

For me Rowntree deserves to stay.

emack2 wrote:Only about 6 of the current Squad will probably go.Moody,Haskell,Wilkinson,Tindall ,Thompson,and Shaw.

Shaw is far to young to retire. He is still one of the best second rows in England.

doctor_grey wrote:

emack2 wrote:Only about 6 of the current Squad will probably go.Moody,Haskell,Wilkinson,Tindall ,Thompson,and Shaw.

Shaw is far to young to retire. He is still one of the best second rows in England.

If you are good enough you are old enough. At both ends of the time-line.

So that would be "if you're good enough you're young enough" then.

Glas a du wrote:So that would be "if you're good enough you're young enough" then.

That would be true.

SO the way to go is build for 2015 around a 38 year old Lock,says a lot for the youth policy methinks.Someone wrote it maybe takes two terms to win a RWC quoting SCW and GH.
That maybe true but knee jerk reactions are to dump coaches and players,certainly at NZ level.With the exception of GH all there past coaches were dumped.
People also said why IF there the best team in the world don`t NZ win more?
The easiest analogy is Manchester United are the Best Soccer side over a long period but don`t always win the F.A.Cup.In.fact Bournemouth my Local side have beaten them twice.
The second would be to say in the case of NZ they usually lose about 20 players from around there squad s.In the case of 2007,many top names including some of the worlds best players.
This year its about a dozen but only 3from the recent squad,BUT Sivivatu,Tialata,Rokococo.McAlister are also among them.
It is to be hoped that IF Martin Johnson retains his job,he can select his own coaches.Knee jerk reactions do nothing after RWCs but cause problems.
Bored I have been weighing up the RWC,and have the following thoughts.
The Panel of Referees were arguably the best available PRE-RWC there were no Complaints.
The IRB intervening giving zero tolerance to REFs.at Breakdown,Offside,Scrum.Maul,Foul Play etc.meant the Refs had little flexibility in intrepratation.
Especially in the early rounds matches became whistle fests,but less so as the tournament went on.
As they stand the current laws on Scrum and Breakdown are unworkable,
BOTH sides could be penalised for multiple offences at every one.
IF you go back to the France v NZ match QF 2007,the match was lost because.The inability of a Captain to get his team in position to take the
right option a dropped Goal.
During the match the All Blacks lost 4 players injured,including both first choice halves,and a replacement FH.When Dan Carter was replaced the AB`s were leading.Mc Alister was binned for a minor offence France scored
10points effectively game over.
The All Blacks dominated world Rugby with flowing Rugby,BUT this is unsuitable for knock out stages in a RWC.THIS time they got i t right experience.
There nightmare scenario nearly came true,DC injured and McCaw,well he should have never started in the RWC with his injury.
IF you look at the three matches in 2011,dispassionately the Refs/may only have seemed to be reffing one side.
BUT in all those games ,had injuries not intervened.Or chances created been taken to score points.
Wales would have beaten SA,Wales would have beaten France,NZv France would have gone to extra time.
Australia versus SA,all it needed was the halves kicking to the corner setting up chances for a Steyn dropped Goal.
Likewise if France had done the same they would have won,afterall they are
the worlds leading experts in the art.
One of the main claims in the Final,was the Ref missed several AB hightackles.Be Honest in EVERY match BOTH sides most tackles are high to the letter of the law.VERY few are penalised.
BUT to get back to the point of this article England need to continuety in selection,coaching,and a Captain who can adapt to the game as it unfolds.
The laws of Scrum/Breakdown and wider use of the TMO will certainly be in use come 2015.
Home sides have won 3,and been finalists in 5 of the 7 RWCs to date so England have a real chance.

My friend, it was a lighthearted comment about Simon Shaw. Yes, he still in one of the best locks in the country. But, no one thinks his fountain of youth will carry him to 2015.

It seems with the Tindall sacking the RFU have decided to get tough. This makes Johnsons position highly questionable - after all they have gone over his head to censure the player when he himself took no formal action. If he had a brain he would resign.