Tiger - 'Stevie is not a racist'

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/15620375.stm

WARNING: This story contains language some may find offensive.

Tiger Woods has revealed he was hurt by Steve Williams's race comment but insisted his former caddie "is certainly not a racist".

Woods added: "It was a wrong thing to say. We're moving forward. It was hurtful certainly, but life goes forward.

"It is a comment that shouldn't have been made and he certainly wishes he didn't make it."

Woods said he had spoken to Williams about the remark, but declined to reveal exactly what they discussed.

"We talked about it this morning, we met face-to-face, we talked it through and we have agreed it was the wrong thing to say," former world number one Woods said.

"He did apologise."

Woods said he had "no doubts" in his belief that Williams did not hold racist views.

The caddie has apologised for his remarks and European Tour chief George O'Grady and US PGA Tour commissioner Tim Finchem have decided to take no action.

Williams, who now carries Adam Scott's bag, made the comments when he was awarded a light-hearted accolade for "the best celebration of the year" in Shanghai on Friday.

When he was asked to elaborate on his celebration when Scott won a world championship in August Williams said the aim was "to shove it right up that black bumhole".

Williams, who was sacked by Woods in July, apologised on Saturday. He said: "I now realise how my comments could be construed as racist. That was not my intent. I apologise to Tiger and anyone else I have offended."

Williams later told Newstalk ZB radio station in his home country of New Zealand that his comment had been "blown out of all proportion".

He said: "It was kind of like a locker room environment, everyone was having a good time.

"My comments were by no means the worst that were passed. There were a lot of profanities and other kinds of remarks but just because I make a remark regarding my former employee (sic) it gets blown out of all proportion. It's absolutely ridiculous.

"You make one comment in a room, having a bit of fun, how does that make you a racist?

"It's making a mountain out of a molehill and I'm not worried about it one bit."

Williams caddied for Woods from 1999 until earlier this year and shared in 13 of the former world number one's 14 major victories. It is estimated he earned $12m (£7.5m) working for Woods.

Woods was speaking about the incident for the first time at a press conference to discuss this week's Australian Open.

Davie wrote:Mav - I think what it boils down to is the difference between being a racist and someone making a racist statement.

I'd be inclined to believe Tiger as he knows SW better than most people, if he states categorically that SW is NOT a racist - yet I still think the comment was a racist remark

A fine line of distinction perhaps but possibly the only explanation

Bingo! A better description of this I've yet to see.

As far as I can see, Williams is a tool of significant proportion but whether he's actually racist in his beliefs is hard to tell. The idea that it's OK to say this sort of thing because it wasn't supposed to be reported is also, clearly, very dumb (Adam, I'm looking at you). However, I'm in the camp that thinks, for once (amazingly), Tiger Woods has made a statement that doesn't appear to be scripted or penned by his PR/Nike and as he knows Williams so well, I'd tend to go with his assessment of the man. Genuinely racist or not, Williams has come out of this looking even more foolish than he did before. Some going I think you'll agree.

JPX wrote:On a related subject, does anyone else struggle sometimes to see how the word 'black' to describe someones colour us meant as racial? Just had a colleague try to describe someone he's spoken to and obviously wanted to say "the black lady", stopped himself and said "the coloured lady".

It just amazes me sometimes how the word black is used quite a lot such as MOBO awards, and calling white people white is strangely ok. I have a couple of African friends and they are always calling each other black in a joking way, but wait until the white guy says it.

Is the subject far too out of hand or is it the black society saying do as we say not as we do?

I find it all a bit odd.

Ironic isn't a white man is not allowed in some circles to use that word. Yet one of my closest friends always states we should refer to him a black as that is his colour. Whenever some refers to him as coloured he finds that far more offensive and personally I can see why.

I'm not condoning any forms of racism, but if we can refer to a white man as white and and asian man as asian then we should be able to use black as descriptive term without being jumped all over. As long as there is no insult added the connotations the word black should be left at it simply being descriptive.

NBS i agree he has made a right fooll of himself by letting us know how bitter he still is in regards to losing woods bag- lets be honest herar he should be happy- scott is actually playing golf!!

maybe there were mates and woods let him down- we dont know the ins and outs.

However i do think its more intersting that the world seemingly thinks he is racist or that its a racist comment!

JPX wrote:On a related subject, does anyone else struggle sometimes to see how the word 'black' to describe someones colour us meant as racial? Just had a colleague try to describe someone he's spoken to and obviously wanted to say "the black lady", stopped himself and said "the coloured lady".

It just amazes me sometimes how the word black is used quite a lot such as MOBO awards, and calling white people white is strangely ok. I have a couple of African friends and they are always calling each other black in a joking way, but wait until the white guy says it.

Is the subject far too out of hand or is it the black society saying do as we say not as we do?

I find it all a bit odd.

Agreed but then again, why not say "The lady with the pink blouse"? It's easier to use skin colour sometimes and ought to be harmless enough but then we do live in such a PC world now and discrimination based on skin colour has a somewhat tarnished history!

Maverick wrote:
Ironic isn't a white man is not allowed in some circles to use that word. Yet one of my closest friends always states we should refer to him a black as that is his colour. Whenever some refers to him as coloured he finds that far more offensive and personally I can see why.

I too can see why. In fact I seem to recall that not too long ago (possibly a South African connection) but "coloureds" was more intended to be descriptive of someone of mixed race - so if you were to call a "black" man "coloured" you were in fact insulting him and taking away his own (pure) heritage

NBS the point is why are we taking words out of our vocbulary.

I have been on the rugby board dicussing nicknames and a welsh lad hates the word taff- he feels its racist. Most dont realise its supposidely a racist word and use it as a friendly nickname.

So because he thinks its racist and has told everyone- we iwll think its racist- if we use this word taff to a welshman from this point on - it will be a derogatory comment not a friendly one. Are you really happy to try and make colours have derogatory meanings!

lets just stick to things as they are- have your own morales- dont go over PC and think of increasiong ways to not offend people(that should have harder skins in the first place)- That is what causes confussion and real racism- because a white person to actually try and speak different in regards or to a black person is treating them differently on purpose- You are seeing that person as different by colour- THAT IS THE REAL RACISM.

All a matter of opinion. I know Stan Collymore dislikes being referred to as black as he considers himself to be just as much white as black, as does Darren Campbell.


As for a Welsh person thinking Taff is racist? How can it be. There is no such thing as the Welsh race.

Davie wrote:

Maverick wrote:
Ironic isn't a white man is not allowed in some circles to use that word. Yet one of my closest friends always states we should refer to him a black as that is his colour. Whenever some refers to him as coloured he finds that far more offensive and personally I can see why.

I too can see why. In fact I seem to recall that not too long ago (possibly a South African connection) but "coloureds" was more intended to be descriptive of someone of mixed race - so if you were to call a "black" man "coloured" you were in fact insulting him and taking away his own (pure) heritage

This is true davie, I also think it holds weight for mixed race, as i say my friend is a black man, his wife is white and their children therefore are mixed race. But to call them coloured would also be derogatory because they are not simply coloured, they are mixed race and that is how my friend prefers his children to be refered when discussing their creed. I agree with this why is a man or woman of mixed race a coloured individual I find that more offensive than saying, black, white, asian or mixed race.

super_realist wrote:All a matter of opinion. I know Stan Collymore dislikes being referred to as black as he considers himself to be just as much white as black, as does Darren Campbell.


As for a Welsh person thinking Taff is racist? How can it be. There is no such thing as the Welsh race.

well some see it as derogtary i suppose. Racist, xenaphobic , dergatory- whats the difference.

the point is dont treat people differently due to there colour or nationality, dont pander to people, respect them offcourse.

Stan needs to get a thiker skin- we use the word black as a descripitive word not to determine there race- the colour black. Just because he is called balck- doesnt mean we are saying he is from the land 'black'. We all know he is english- thats what he is!

Being called Taff is hardly being discriminating though is it. I mean no different to being called a "sweaty" or a "tatty muncher". Don't see the problem with that.

McLaren wrote:Super

Even if legally there is little the PGA or European tour could do to impose sanctions on Williams do you not think the likes of McDowell and other pro’s who defended him could have came out with a message that more strongly codenamed his racism?

Mac, you are forgetting that MacDowell was actually there when it was said. You were not. I've heard racists comments made in jest by comedians of all different colours and religions. It was supposed to be a joke and in keeping with the tone of the evening, it wasn't intended to be read on paper and out of context where it is clearly indefensible. He has apologised, both tours have condemned the comment irrespective of the occasion. It is time you got over this.

super_realist wrote:Being called Taff is hardly being discriminating though is it. I mean no different to being called a "sweaty" or a "tatty muncher". Don't see the problem with that.

the guy is mental man- he is a constant annoyance on that board. Its a nickname, its like someone calling me a pomm or a sass- i dont care

Is it just me or have we covered the above half dozen posts re "is saying black racist" before? Numerous times? I think we are all intelligent enough to know what is racist and what isnt. No need to bang on about it. Its not as if we are overly hard done by in these PC times.

I still think the initial reaction wasnt quite right and that Williams will be discplined somehow. By the tour or Scott or the tour leaning on Scott or otherwise.

They haven't the authority to discilpine him. He's not part of the tour. The PGA is the Professional Golfers Association, nothing to do with caddies, the best they could do would be to have a word with Scott about the conduct of his employee.

That's pretty much what I indicated. I'm pretty sure they could have a stern word with Scott, and even Williams authority or not, but thats all it would be, which is fine if the world knows about it.

It is sad that we are still talking about this but how it was delt with was my grievance (and Mac's looking at this thread). Ok the response wasnt a million miles off the mark but they could have done without the excuses and instead issued a stern warning about future conduct. I know that kind of thing should go without saying but they sent out the wrong kind of message on this.

I wouldn't have thought they'd bother their ar$e Lairdy. They are a pretty limp organisation. Considering some of the on course behaviour of some of their players like Na, Sabbatini and Woods in the past and their lack of reaction I doubt they'll consider any action necessary about an overblown trivial event like this.

The thing is these guys do get disciplined but nothing official gets announced. They wouldnt even have to do much if they cant officially discipline him. Just an press statement saying that kind of behaviour should not be associated with the tour. My point is they didnt even do that. Did they? Anyway thats all I wanted to say on it.

Can you imagine how much people would have to do if they had to put out a statement every time something controvertial came up which had tenuous links with their sport to avoid guilt by association. It would be like all the remaining 91 league teams denouncing John Terry for his remark and distancing themselves from his comment.

Sometime you just don't need to say anything. It's already implied, but as you say players may be disciplined internally, they may have also had a word in Adam Scott's shell-like.

Super

Even if they did not set up a news conference at the very least when questioned adam scott should not have come out with some bull about it being normal locker room chat and not meant for anyone outside the room to hear. Hardly smacks of someone who gets the race issues sadly still present in our culture.

McLaren wrote:Super

Even if they did not set up a news conference at the very least when questioned adam scott should not have come out with some bull about it being normal locker room chat and not meant for anyone outside the room to hear. Hardly smacks of someone who gets the race issues sadly still present in our culture.

How do you know they haven't spoken to him directly..

Mac, would the BBC set up a conference to discuss ITV's business?

It's an issue for Woods and Williams (which they have already settled) and Scott if he feels anything necessary needs to take place.

You'd make an excellent Hitler Youth Mac, reporting everything you hear to the SS.

Super wins! (Godwin's law)

i am going to stop discussing wether it was racist or not . because its going around in circles.

however players etc backing up 'a caddie' is all about the fact that they like him more than woods. Woods has some serious PR issues, no one wants to take his side- there would rather be labeld racist(although they are not) than side with woods and take a stand against williams. That woods needs to sort it out man,

mav

"How do you know they haven't spoken to him directly.."

They have, and by they we mean the media and by him scott. You can find his comment on all golf news sites.

Davie wrote:Super wins! (Godwin's law)

Oops, Wasn't calling Mac a Nazi, just that he seems to lack reasoned thought. Walls have ears eh?

super_realist wrote:
You'd make an excellent Hitler Youth Mac, reporting everything you hear to the SS.

I now have an image of Mac wearing a freddie starr hitler outfit goosestepping round his front room with a copy of the guardian under his arm and with a a cardboard cut out of hermione granger in the corner wearing an Eva Braun Wig

mav

"How do you know they haven't spoken to him directly.."

They have, and by they we mean the media and by him scott. You can find his comment on all golf news sites.

So what is the problem then Mac you really are going round in circles and digging out everyone for not aggreeing with you. It's been dealt with, the player in question is not concerned with further retribution so why should you be...

am going to stop discussing wether it was racist or not . because its going around in circles.

I'm with you on this one

Kwini's right - put aside but not forgotten or forgiven.

Williams is an idiot, that much is clear. And why he can't get over being fired is anyone's guess. No one made him take the job to begin with - and I haven't heard anything about the checks that TW gave him bounced. If he wanted a job for life he could have pursued the post office.

This seems to be where we are at with this discussion

1. We all pretty much agree Steve Williams comment was racist but he is not necessarily racist, based on Tigers backing.

2. Some people (super, mav, mysteroky) think it is ok to make comments like this out of the public domain (free speech I assume?). At least myself, diggers and Lairdy do not think this to be the case and find racist remarks unacceptable at any time whether legal or not and find the moral argument more compelling.

3. Some people think the comments made by players when questioned by the media were spot on and there is no reason for them to feel shame for advocating racist remarks when not made in public. The same people do not think anyone needs to take a harder stance and denounce steve Williams for his comments.

4. Myself and lairdy think the comments made by the golfing world were not well advised and seem oblivious to the issue of racism. This I feel is the real issue and more important than williams We also feel golf could have done more and used this unfortunate incident to make a clear stance against racism and at least show support for the issue.

If we cannot move from this what more can be said other than it is sad to hear some of the views from respected posters on V2?

it is easy to say move on but very hard to do when there is a worry the sport you love is not free from racism and making no effort to change this.

Tigers an idiot, willimas is an idiot- they should have stayed together in all fairness- they have so much in common- also both are very good at there jobs!

It will be interesting if steve sticks at caddying after this- i think id be inclined to just quit and sit on my millions-As shotrock suggests many wont forget what he has done so thinks could get abit nasty for him in the future

Mac, for heavens sake. You should get a job at the Daily Mail for being so sensationalist.

Neither Mav nor I have said racism is fine in private, what we have said is that it is legal to hold racist views as long as you don't express them publically. This was a private affair.
This by no means results in Mav or I (or anyone else being racist).

For someone who claims to be intelligent, I have seen absolutely no evidence that you are able to read between the lines, extract context or reach logical, reasoned conclusions. You literally see black and white (pardon the pun) and no other explanation can possibly be entertained.
That is probably a more discriminatory point of view than anything which has been discussed thus far.

Mclaren not sure you have got all that right- I think we are on different wave lengths in fairness.

Mac - I refer to my earlier comment you really are being a STEVE....

Blindly reading into someone disagreeing with you therefore makes them see racism as acceptable, if you bothered to read all the comments on this thread properly but not just extracting certain words you would see, that SR, Mystiroaky or I have said racsim is acceptable in any environment. What we have said is, if the player in question e.g Woods is able to accept this man is not a racist and that he did not mean it with any racial intentions then there is no need for further charges or fines to be brought.

It is not a matter for any tour to address because the incident in question did not happen at an official tour event nor did it happen at an official tour presentation evening. Therefore they have no jurisdiction to seek further punishment for Williams.

We have also asked the question which you conveniently again avoided. Is why is using the word Black derogatory. Which I also backed up the point by stating about a good friend of mine who prefers to be called black as he is a black man. Where have I or anyone on here actually said racism is socially acceptable. It isn't and where did anyone say they were advocating racism again they didn't.

Mac seriously with your level of ignorance i'm starting to wonder if your related to Steve Williams

Mav

We know players have admitted that racist comments are ok in the lockroom or at tour events where the press are not present. This is basically what Adam Scott and G-mac said when asked about this williams.

Why does that not concern you?

Jesus Mac, can you even sit the right way round on a toilet?
Your fake outrage is absurd, Woods isn't even bothered, so why are you? I cannot believe that in your life you have not said anything which has been considered offensive, miscontrued or taken out of context.

After all, there must have been some reason that all those guys refused to go for a drink in the bar after a round.

McLaren wrote:Mav

We know players have admitted that racist comments are ok in the lockroom or at tour events where the press are not present. This is basically what Adam Scott and G-mac said when asked about this williams.

Why does that not concern you?

Probably because they never said it, you just made it up to suit your own side of the debate. Are we to believe you've never repeated an 'Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman' joke in your adult life?

McLaren wrote:Mav

We know players have admitted that racist comments are ok in the lockroom or at tour events where the press are not present. This is basically what Adam Scott and G-mac said when asked about this williams.

Why does that not concern you?

Brilliant Mac, yet again you avoid everything else and single out a single point to try to justify yourself, typical of you really.

Why is it basically what they said or is it just you reading that into it again with your tinted glasses.

Why should it concern me, I don't condone racism at all and if ever i'm privvy to it or within earshot of it, I will speak out against it. But in the players locker room, provacy of their own homes it's their choice to make, rightly or wrongly they are human beings with their own views, just because you and I disagree with them it does not give you the right to enforce your opinion on them.

Would I like to see racism stamped out of sport and every other walk of life 100% most definately I would. How can you say categorically for a fact it occurs in a players locker rooms have you been in one..

Redrage wrote:

McLaren wrote:Mav

We know players have admitted that racist comments are ok in the lockroom or at tour events where the press are not present. This is basically what Adam Scott and G-mac said when asked about this williams.

Why does that not concern you?

Probably because they never said it, you just made it up to suit your own side of the debate. Are we to believe you've never repeated an 'Englishman, Irishman and a Scotsman' joke in your adult life?

Dear oh dearie me ... yet someone else who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "race".

super_realist wrote:Can you imagine how much people would have to do if they had to put out a statement every time something controvertial came up which had tenuous links with their sport to avoid guilt by association. It would be like all the remaining 91 league teams denouncing John Terry for his remark and distancing themselves from his comment.

Sometime you just don't need to say anything. It's already implied, but as you say players may be disciplined internally, they may have also had a word in Adam Scott's shell-like.

It was world wide news and the link is hardly tenuous...

You are quite right about not saying anything but problem is they did say something and it wasnt right. Sadly it makes the image of the sport worse in the eyes of many. Perhaps there is a problem in the sport? maybe their brains got fankled up in some sort of PR whirlwind disaster? maybe they are just stupid? but either one the governing bodies should have reacted better.

Your example doesnt really fit tbh. Maybe FIFA instead of all other league teams would be closer.

Anyway, someone wants to have a word in Scott's ear and tell him to get some balls. Would do him good on all fronts.

Mac, dont included me in lists like that please. Whilst I am largely on your side re the reaction, specifically from the powers that be (even though they apparently dont have powers over caddies), I dont entirely agree with where you've put me. I dont think the golfing world is entirely oblivious to racism, part of it maybe but not all of it. Not wanting to sound like I am excusing anyone but I do think that a lot of people are uneasy discussing it for fear of being clumsy and saying the wrong thing and then subsequently saying the wrong thing. I dont like airing my general opinions much on this board beyond golfing matters so would appreciate you dont do it for me. At the same time I know you have a knack for strong opinionated discussion with the odd light hearted swerveball windup thrown in, which a lot of people miss, so dont take this the wrong way

Mav, the tour can still address by way of reaction rather than any punishment, which we have realised would be difficult to administer. I think/hope that was Mac's initial point.

So you mean that the tour should fake outrage too?

As far as they are concerned the matter has been dealt with by the people directly involved. That is the mature way, not stepping in with over the top condemnation of a fairly trivial incident.

Mav, the tour can still address by way of reaction rather than any punishment, which we have realised would be difficult to administer. I think/hope that was Mac's initial point.

But the issue is already dealt with, by further trawling it through the mud all they do is associate themselves as an organisation with Williams and drag the issue out further and even "Dim" Finchem's not that thick to do that.

Sorry Lairdy, and not taken in the wrong way at all. I was just clinging onto my only friend in the room and should not have put you on the list. It is sometimes a lonely world being mac in 606v2.

McLaren wrote:Sorry Lairdy, and not taken in the wrong way at all. I was just clinging onto my only friend in the room and should not have put you on the list. It is sometimes a lonely world being mac in 606v2.

Wonder why that is when you have such sensationalist views and ways of looking at things through tinted lenses.

Mac anyone gone for a beer with you post round this year yet.

mav its allright lad- debating is what we are here for- but as others have said , not sure if your list was a great post- i doesnt reflect our feelings on the subject..

gaelgowfer wrote:

Dear oh dearie me ... yet someone else who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "race".

I never mentioned race, I was merely asking if Mac had ever used very common and bigoted joke in his adult life? Race is a very poorly defined word in any case, if you want to be super pedantic there is only one race... the human race. We all have the same ancestral evolutionary past, we are one race of many ethnicities and nationalities. Furthermore, the Oxford Dictionary thinks it is fair to classify nationality as a race... http://english.oxforddictionaries.com/view/th/e/t_en_gb0012006#t_en_gb0012006 so what do you know that they don't?

super_realist wrote:So you mean that the tour should fake outrage too?

As far as they are concerned the matter has been dealt with by the people directly involved. That is the mature way, not stepping in with over the top condemnation of a fairly trivial incident.

Ok here's a link to what the tour did say link and its pretty close to what I thought should have been said. So I'll admit I was wrong in saying what they said wasnt right. The statement is pretty much what I'd expect. I will say that this statement was lost in amongst all the media coverage stating that Williams should be disciplined so that tells its own story. I still think he should and will be punished somehow. You can argue it would be dragging it over the mud again and it would but thats the point. If he was adequately punished at the time then we wouldnt be here would we?

Lairdy wrote:

super_realist wrote:So you mean that the tour should fake outrage too?

As far as they are concerned the matter has been dealt with by the people directly involved. That is the mature way, not stepping in with over the top condemnation of a fairly trivial incident.

Ok here's a link to what the tour did say link and its pretty close to what I thought should have been said. So I'll admit I was wrong in saying what they said wasnt right. The statement is pretty much what I'd expect. I will say that this statement was lost in amongst all the media coverage stating that Williams should be disciplined so that tells its own story. I still think he should and will be punished somehow. You can argue it would be dragging it over the mud again and it would but thats the point. If he was adequately punished at the time then we wouldnt be here would we?

Wheres the link!

i agree red- there is little differce from being racist or classest or sexist or xenaphobic- it all boils down to feeling different to someone else and acting on that feeling in a derogatory way.


however i feel as though williams acted in a way that is best described as a bitter ex employee ,rather than a racist/bigotted individual

the link is on the word "link"

Redrage wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:

Dear oh dearie me ... yet someone else who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "race".

I never mentioned race, I was merely asking if Mac had ever used very common and bigoted joke in his adult life? Race is a very poorly defined word in any case, if you want to be super pedantic there is only one race... the human race. We all have the same ancestral evolutionary past, we are one race of many ethnicities and nationalities. Furthermore, the Oxford Dictionary thinks it is fair to classify nationality as a race... http://english.oxforddictionaries.com/view/th/e/t_en_gb0012006#t_en_gb0012006 so what do you know that they don't?

It was difficult not to come to any other conclusion. There are several definitions for the word "race" and your analogy simply didn't fit with a thread discussing the issue of colour prejudice.

When it comes to "Englisman, Irishman and Scotsman" jokes, we all laugh at each other and with each other at those. There is simply no comparison between jokes based on cultural differences to the kind of locker room humour based on racism which is only ever meant to be insulting.

McLaren wrote:Sorry Lairdy, and not taken in the wrong way at all. I was just clinging onto my only friend in the room and should not have put you on the list. It is sometimes a lonely world being mac in 606v2.

Mac - for once I agree with you.

I've stayed away from all this nonsense, some of the views expressed by several people on recent threads demonstrate a suprising lack of awareness, to put it mildly. And then there seem to be a whole host of posts un-necessarily laying into first Simba and now you.

May the force be with you.