Has Rugby Union become just like Rugby League

Hardly ever watch rugby union now as it has become like Rugby League with 15 players. In the 60s I was once told that rugby league was boring as the players rarely missed a tackle and you just had endless attempts to break through with the players constantly hanging on to the ball.
In contrast, we had rugby union, once they had limited kicking to touch direct from only the 22, featuring some of the most glorious running matches imaginable. Yes, there are still some great players around but how are they to express themselves with the flat three quarter lines, the constant running back into trouble instead of having the ball out along the line, the too-fit forwards (the lumbering giants of old actually contributed to the openness !).
OK, the game's got professional but it's grim stuff. Or have I missed something ?

Any sport is grim stuff if you don't like it. Motor racing is grim stuff to me. If you do like it then rugby union is still good stuff!

If that's what you believe, sirfred, then I wonder if you are watching the right teams. Yes, England are deeply uninspired at the moment, and the tense knockout games of the RWC needed some investment in understanding the games to really appreciate, but there's been some great rugby played elsewhere.

It is harder to break through a well-organised defence these days, and the most exciting teams play an offloading game where they create space by moving the ball on too quickly for the defence to reorganise. Quins' try against Exeter a couple of weeks ago was a case in point - a breathless, 15 man tsunami moving relentlessly up the pitch with the ball flung from crest to crest. As good a try as I've seen live in nearly 30 years of watching the game.

here you go matey, watch a team who likes to run the ball, even if they don't win every game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk

it's like rugby league, only much much worse.

Has Rugby Union become just like Rugby League?

No.

Turkster wrote:here you go matey, watch a team who likes to run the ball, even if they don't win every game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk

Ta for that. Some of the tries were absolutely brilliant. Praps running rugby still lives, after all !

rugby league maybe a bit one dimensional but over the last year some of the games i have watched have been far more exciting then their union counterparts. Far less negative spoiling play and a much higher tempo. The atmosphere appears also appears to be great usually because of the higher volumes of tries scored

Union could certainly relearn the value of having a ball carrier coming on to the ball at pace. This is so clear from League. You do not see the ball spooned to a static forward in midfield who walks at the defense and flops to the ground and then this is repeated ad nauseum until somebody offends at the breakdown

some great rugby by scarlets. Great to see!

Static players taking the ball is the most infuriating part of rugby union.

Talking about attacking, it comes in cycles if I'm honest. Someone comes up with a way to attack the gain line, create matchups of backs against forwards out wide, forwards picking and driving over backs in close, recycling around the corner of rucks or spreading defenses from side to side. Once one of these (or a new) attack system starts working, everyone runs in the tries for a couple of months and everything is entertaining. Then the defensive coaches figure out how they are leaking tries, adapt their formations and the try count falls. If a newbie to rugby union turns on a game where the defenses are solid, I doubt their attention if held unless they are in a pub and get wrapped up in the atmosphere. If a newbie turns on when attacking teams are running through defenses, they will come back to watch more games.

Remember when;
- width was great (then it became playing laterally due to drift defenses)
- the flat pass on the gain line was in vogue (then the rush defense cut down a players opportunity to sidestep and knockons ensued)
- playing from deep was the thing to do in order to spot dog legs in defensive lines (then solid/straight defensive lines with consistent speed was brought in)
- pick and drives were key (now defenses can get the next player in competing for the ball getting turnovers)
- malls were unstoppable (then people figured out how to really disrupt them)
- offloading in the tackle was a defenses nightmare (still is the case, but the 'choke' tackle has been the best way to stop this so far)
- the grubber kick (or chip kick) was new again (scrum halfs started acting as sweepers)

Once interested in rugby, all these kind of matchups are great to watch, but I would agree that neutrals need to come to the game looking at tries in order to really increase public appeal.

Union could certainly relearn the value of having a ball carrier coming on to the ball at pace

Could not agree more

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Static players taking the ball is the most infuriating part of rugby union.

Talking about attacking, it comes in cycles if I'm honest. Someone comes up with a way to attack the gain line, create matchups of backs against forwards out wide, forwards picking and driving over backs in close, recycling around the corner of rucks or spreading defenses from side to side. Once one of these (or a new) attack system starts working, everyone runs in the tries for a couple of months and everything is entertaining. Then the defensive coaches figure out how they are leaking tries, adapt their formations and the try count falls. If a newbie to rugby union turns on a game where the defenses are solid, I doubt their attention if held unless they are in a pub and get wrapped up in the atmosphere. If a newbie turns on when attacking teams are running through defenses, they will come back to watch more games.

Remember when;
- width was great (then it became playing laterally due to drift defenses)
- the flat pass on the gain line was in vogue (then the rush defense cut down a players opportunity to sidestep and knockons ensued)
- playing from deep was the thing to do in order to spot dog legs in defensive lines (then solid/straight defensive lines with consistent speed was brought in)
- pick and drives were key (now defenses can get the next player in competing for the ball getting turnovers)
- malls were unstoppable (then people figured out how to really disrupt them)
- offloading in the tackle was a defenses nightmare (still is the case, but the 'choke' tackle has been the best way to stop this so far)
- the grubber kick (or chip kick) was new again (scrum halfs started acting as sweepers)

Once interested in rugby, all these kind of matchups are great to watch, but I would agree that neutrals need to come to the game looking at tries in order to really increase public appeal.

A very astute analysis. The only real answer is smarter players. It's rock-paper-scissors, really. While there's a defensive tactic that will stop each attacking play, there's no tactic that will stop everything. You can't simultaneously drift and rush, and a choke tackle can be nullified if the attacking team gets their maul going quickly enough.

The very best 10s and 12s can read what the defence is trying to do and vary the play on the fly to take advantage - Greenwood was superlative at this, and England's current malaise is in part because they don't have anyone who can do that anything like as well. The best forwards don't just hang around in midfield waiting for glory or pick and drive themselves into turning over the ball. They spot when they need to clean up the breakdown, or when they have a numerical or organisation advantage that would let them get the maul going. If the opposition are committing to the breakdown and spoiling the ball, they looks for space to kick into, or up the tempo of offloading.

It's hard to do. You need a team of players who know each other well and trust each other, and who are all good at reading the game and adapting on the fly. But there are teams out there who are doing it, and doing it well.

really good post. there is no doubt we seem to be in a negative cycle at the moment particularly where the teams are really well matched. A good few of Llanellis wonder trys seemed to be scored v Aironi and Treviso.

if something does not give a few rule tweaks may be necessary. low scoring dogfights can be tense and exciting but not all of the time. hopefully teams figure out how to attack again to increase excitement levels. It is nice to see trys and linebreaks.

Case in point, France v Wales in world cup semis. It was dreadful. At least Wales made an attempt to keep the ball in hand but it was so boring. I watched Leeds Rhinos v St Helens in the league final was so much better to watch.

I am a massive union fan but fear for the game. In Ireland as with other countries we are now obsessed with big bruising defensive scrum halves. Size is a major factor 1-15. If Shane Williams arrived today at his size most coaches would tell him to do one. The same for Peter Stringer.

over to you attack and backs coaches

Poorfour, this is where overcoaching can lead: players so robotic that they can't see beyond the prescribed game plan, or if they can, they don't know what to do about it if Plan A isn't working. There can be an infuriating lack of wit and spontaneity to some rugby union players. The ability to think on one's feet and adapt to the game as it unfolds is perhaps rarer than it used to be.

Good post bandwagon

Agree that at the moment Union is in a bit of a trough, ome of those periods when defence is dominating

Also, sorry to have to say this, but Lanelli v Ospreys on saturday night was one of the dullest games of rugby that I have ever seen. Despite the fact almost all Llanelli's star backs played at some point

when teams are relatively well matched games tend to be dogfights with line breaks and trys at a premium. Thats my take on things. When there is a difference in class there is some space there and tries are scored

hopefully all will change this weekend

I can't stand rugby League so I'll declare my bias up front. I don't think there is any convergence with League, but there are growing problems with Union.

As a sport evolves so do the tactics and it's clear over the years that teams have worked out new methods of both attacking and defending. Currently defense is on top. I do think though that the game is in danger of becoming paralysed through rule changes particularly at the breakdown which has become really formulaic. If we don't address the need to make the breakdown truly competitive and open to less interpretation - some idiot is going to suggest that a team has 6 goes to do something before having to give the ball away!! How daft would that be

haha.maybe 10 goes???

another thing that does my nut in is walking around the fringes to run down the clock for the last 5/10 minutes. 35 phases gaining 5 yards. great drama yeah

i would watch no rugby league when rugby union is good. game for yorkshire folk called dale and kirk from down pit with bad haricuts. any sport that has a Hull derby cannot be all that. in all seriousness though it can be brilliant. watched the state of origin for the first time this year. class stuff. some proper rows as well.

I'd add that in the domestic leagues (if I treat the rabo as a domestic-like league) teams are playing twice a season minimum (then playoffs, cups, etc.) and players also train and play together at international level. All this face time ultimately creates a bit of a stalemate where, eventually, most of the Leinster players will know and be able to anticipate exactly what most of the munster players are going to do and vice versa (provinces just for example but same goes for Glasgow-Edinburgh, the welsh regions, etc). We, as a sport, are barely into the second generation of professionalism and the turnover of players in most squads is slow enough.
I think the HC tends to be more exciting because the likes of Leinster won't have played Montpellier in a competitive fixture so attacks look surprising and defensive coaches only have tapes to analyse.

On the positive side of things, trying to be a bit positive, turnover ball is gold and generates a lot of tries and excitement (mainly cos defenses aren't set and the defensive line will have mismatched inversely created by the original attacking team trying to create corresponding mismatches in the previous plays).
1st phase attack still gives teams lots of space to attack as the forwards are stuck in a scrum or in a lineout.
Making scrums more of a competition and increasing the need to have 8 players pushing and not looking like meerkats will create space.
Forcing teams to keep full lineouts would bring focus back to driving malls and leave space for the backs.

from turnover ball is commonly hoofed straight down the pitch or spread out wide where eventually boot is put to ball. At international level The French love them or hate them are still the Daddys of the Northern hemisphere when it comes to punishing lose kicking.

Wales can counter but to be honest though they had an excellent world cup i think that was based on defense,organisation and a less open game plan then usual.

At club level Leinster and Toulouse lead the way for me over the last few years in the HC

agreed that the return of the maul may suck in players and create space outwide. For some reason Ireland have not used this ploy very much recently. When Munster were at there very best they were absolutely awesome in the maul and as a result so were the Irish front 5. Cue space out wide

Like it or not,the writer is correct there is no such thing as a genuine "Ruck" now.EVERY pileup,won1t dignify it by calling it the break down,is impossible to win the ball legally.[tp the letter of the law]IF you have a" fetcher" and gets the ball he`s a hero if called Brussow,Phil Waugh,george Smith.Neil Back,Pocock or Warburton.If its Ritchie McCaw its that cheating B*****,endless pick and go`s,poor kicking from hand .
Defence on the goal line is a series of illegallities till a team settles for conceding three points rather than 7.legalised lineout lifting means peels are now extinct.
Scrums are a minefield of teams trying to milk penalties instead of recycle the ball.
Define the "Choke tackle" by definition it is above the shoulders and illegal,even if seldom whistled.
A "Headlock" is oftened used but hardly legal,the difference between NH and SH is one REF.tries to let the game flow the other prefers the static style.
Frankly the whole area of scrum/tackle/maul/breakdown/offside wants seriously going into.
Also conceding several consecutive penalties on the line befroe it becomes a penalty try.

Emack,
Firstly I agree with all of that, we have much to fix.
Secondly, cheating b****** is a term of endearment. Back certainly reached that status, Warburton and Pocock are well on the way. Only time will tell.

Actually, I beg to differ. We've had a couple of games recently where the breakdown has been reffed very poorly - SA vs Aus, Quins vs Exeter - and the decline in the quality of the game is huge. So it's clear that the opposite mus also be true - a well reffed game can see genuine competition for the ball, otherwise we'd not have noticed the difference.

The Choke tackle is referring to the way Ireland tackled Australia - two tacklers preventing both the offload and the ball carrier going to ground and so forcing a scrum in the tackling team's favour. Neither illegal nor dangerous (one tackler goes at waist height, the other around the arms), but highly skilled.

The maul is coming back into fashion. They do still get pulled down, but I've also seen more tries from rolling mauls this season than in the last two or three combined.

The big thing that needs sorting out us the scrum. I would like to see a trial with top class games reffed according to Brian Moore's interpretation of the current rules for a while. If that isn't enough (though it should be, if done right) then ban the hit and have it firm up in rows.

The rest of Emack's points, I don't see a big problem with. But if you really want to stop teams giving away penalties, increase the value of a pen relative to a try. If th penalty were worth 4 points, they'd quickly become much less frequent.

the choke tackle. the most exciting innovative development in the world cup. sums it up really. all of the irish media getting so excited about it as if it was something wonderful and a site to behold. about as innovative as things got for us.

to be fair given we were no threat with ball in hand (save a few patches v aus and italy) we had to do something and it was instrumental in a super defensive effort v aus. pity all of our creativity was in defense

lets hope the revival of the maul continues.

Thank you for your definition of the choke tackle,chances are tho that the tackled player.Is taken to ground,but not RELEASED by the tackler illegal,i`ve seen refs.
Do one of two things say get off him and awarding a scrum to the defending
team.
OR penalising the tackler for not releasing the player OR penalising the tackled for not rolling away.
It `s a fifty /fifty bet the Ref will get it wrongand you will get your share of penalties.
Scrum better to go back to forming up by rows,less resets,and collapses and scrummaging becomes an art again.
The front row mafia will still be there, but a solid scrum with the tight 6 all shoving would be better than the current mess.
The Bok rolling maul was a feared weapon,the All Blacks negated it by splitting the driving players into pods[for want of a betterword].
Usually ending in a scrum ,and the All Blacks scrum in recent years has been very good even against the head.