Crisis in Manila?

Sometime in April/May next year, there will be an unspecified "incident" in the Philipines which demands so much attention that Manny will decide to devote himself to policics full-time in order to try and help resolve the situation.

I believe this will happen as he can no longer find an excuse NOT to fight Mayweather. After Saturday's performance against JMM, I think Floyd will be straining at the leash to get this one signed. If anyone thinks Manny put on a deliberately poor performance to lure Floyd in then you need to watch one of Manny's action movies...he's not THAT good an actor!

Convenient timing. I read a headline on boxingscene that Koncz (Sp?) is advising Pacquiao not to take a fourth fight with Marquez. Wise words, because even if he won legitimately there's be a lot of pressure to score in favour of Marquez, and a robbery in favour of JMM, while poetic, would harm the sport still further.

I agree with the fact that he isn't that good an actor. We tend to look for more elegant solutions than actually exist. in this case, it was a poor performance by all accounts

He looked decidedly average. Poor accuracy, no real plan 'B', and just generally made to look like the second best boxer in the ring that night by some considerable margin.

Boxing appears to be all about timing...some of it even during the fight itself!

After this weekend I think Arum has done serious harm to Manny's reputation, certainly amongst his "western" fanbase. The next fight that Manny announces will undoubtedly be greeted with comments like "I wonder how Uncle Bob's gonna screw THIS guy over"

DAVE667 wrote:Boxing appears to be all about timing...some of it even during the fight itself!

After this weekend I think Arum has done serious harm to Manny's reputation, certainly amongst his "western" fanbase. The next fight that Manny announces will undoubtedly be greeted with comments like "I wonder how Uncle Bob's gonna screw THIS guy over"

As long as Arum can guarantee big (career-high) paydays to potential opponents, Pacquiao will still get the fights, sadly. For me he's lost a lot of respect. I know Pacquiao wasn't directly responsible for the scoring (as far as we know), but for someone so supposedly humble to claim he 'clearly won' stinks quite frankly.

You never know, Perhaps Manny will sit and watch it back and, like Oscar vs Sturm, come out and say, "I was lucky to win that fight" (albeit three years after he retires)

DAVE667 wrote:You never know, Perhaps Manny will sit and watch it back and, like Oscar vs Sturm, come out and say, "I was lucky to win that fight" (albeit three years after he retires)

Perhaps, but too little, too late. Roach is quoted on boxingscene as saying Marquez had the fight won but let it get away from him in the last couple of rounds. Arum said he thought Pacquiao won but 'my opinion isn't important' or words to that effect. Khan says he thought Marquez won by a couple. Disgusting robbery. Lost i think the last little respect I had for cockRoach and Pacquiao.

I hope you share a similar negativity towards Froch then Balti, who apparently was robbed against Kessler.

I actually feel bad for Manny at the moment. He had a bad night, got the nod (unfairly) but everyone is coating him off like he did something wrong.

joeyjojo618 wrote:I hope you share a similar negativity towards Froch then Balti, who apparently was robbed against Kessler.

I actually feel bad for Manny at the moment. He had a bad night, got the nod (unfairly) but everyone is coating him off like he did something wrong.

Froch wasn't robbed against Kessler. The one card was a bit wide, from memory, but he did lose that fight. I don't think it's as much as Pacquiao having a 'bad night'; it's more the case that Marquez proved once again to be a better boxer. Pacquiao's excuses of leg cramps are becoming a tad tiresome-perhaps he should hire a better strength and conditioning coach. Before the fight everyone was expecting Marques to be destroyed. It wasn't a 'bad night' from Pacquiao which caused Marquez to put on the performance he did.

My point was that Manny lost the fight and said he 'clearly won' which stinks in your eyes, so Froch losing the fight but saying he was robbed similarly stinks otherwise its double standards.

I meant bad night in the sense that he had a tough fight, lost in most peoples eyes, got pelted when leaving the ring and now is being slated for robbing Marquez blind, when it didnt have anything to do with him.

I have absolutely no sympathy for Pacquiao whatsoever - why should I? Why should any of us? He got away with murder on saturday night - in boxing terms, he's getting off scot-free. His claim when being interviewed that he 'clearly won' the fight (a stark contrast to what his demeanour and body language suggested only a few moments earlier) made me want to put my foot through my computer screen (thanks again, Primetime, for the free link!).

I'm sure Pacquiao can handle a little unrest amongst the fans - it's the nature of the beast and is to be expected when something like this happens. No need, in any way, to feel sorry for him.

DAVE667 wrote:
After Saturday's performance against JMM, I think Floyd will be straining at the leash to get this one signed.

I'm not so sure about that. Mayweather generally likes to fight opponents whose stock/marketability is high and opponents coming off big and impressive wins (Hatton-Castillo, Mosley-Margarito, Ortiz-Berto etc).

Paquaio's rep is currently at one its lowest points and the fight wouldnt generate the same interest as it would have previously. The fight will still be a massive PPV event, but there will be a strong sense of ambivalence and apathy from fans leading towards to fight. In what could have once been the biggest single sporting event of the decade, will be seen as a somewhat routine Mayweather victory. Even in winning, Mayweather wouldnt get any much credit. After all, he'd have beaten a guy who has just come off a dire performance against an opponent that Mayweather previously schooled.

I wouldnt be surprised if Mayweather ignores Paquaio altogether and focuses on an in-form opponent that's riding a wave of popularity.
If Khan does the business against Peterson and looks good doing so, don't be surprised if we see a Mayweather-Khan showdown in 2012.

joeyjojo618 wrote:My point was that Manny lost the fight and said he 'clearly won' which stinks in your eyes, so Froch losing the fight but saying he was robbed similarly stinks otherwise its double standards.

I meant bad night in the sense that he had a tough fight, lost in most peoples eyes, got pelted when leaving the ring and now is being slated for robbing Marquez blind, when it didnt have anything to do with him.

From memory I recall the Kessler fight seeming closer to this one, but no controversy other than the width of the decision. Froch wasn't jobbing Kessler out of a win though, that's the difference.

He personally didnt get away with murder. He fought honestly and lost (in real terms.) Its nothing to do with him that the judges failed to score the fight properly.

As far as Im concerned he did nothing wrong. And him claiming that he won after the fight, well so what? 1) he was probably told to be very careful about what he said since it might impact on future match ups and 2) How many boxers have said similar things immediately after a fight (which was my Froch point.)

joeyjojo618 wrote:He personally didnt get away with murder. He fought honestly and lost (in real terms.) Its nothing to do with him that the judges failed to score the fight properly.

As far as Im concerned he did nothing wrong. And him claiming that he won after the fight, well so what? 1) he was probably told to be very careful about what he said since it might impact on future match ups and 2) How many boxers have said similar things immediately after a fight (which was my Froch point.)

My point is that for someone who perpetuates an image of being humble, virtuous and a 'people's champ', Pacquiao's insistence that he 'clearly' won is an insult to his opponent and to the intelligence of anyone watching.

His corner were telling him he needed a KO to win.

His body language at the final bell suggested he didn't feel he'd won.

To come out after that and have the gall to try and argue that "I clearly won, a lot of the fans thought I won" is pretty shameful. I'm not entirely sure why you think Froch has any bearing on this because the fights are two very different circumstances.

BALTIMORA wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:He personally didnt get away with murder. He fought honestly and lost (in real terms.) Its nothing to do with him that the judges failed to score the fight properly.

As far as Im concerned he did nothing wrong. And him claiming that he won after the fight, well so what? 1) he was probably told to be very careful about what he said since it might impact on future match ups and 2) How many boxers have said similar things immediately after a fight (which was my Froch point.)

My point is that for someone who perpetuates an image of being humble, virtuous and a 'people's champ', Pacquiao's insistence that he 'clearly' won is an insult to his opponent and to the intelligence of anyone watching.

His corner were telling him he needed a KO to win.

His body language at the final bell suggested he didn't feel he'd won.

To come out after that and have the gall to try and argue that "I clearly won, a lot of the fans thought I won" is pretty shameful. I'm not entirely sure why you think Froch has any bearing on this because the fights are two very different circumstances.

i agree with the above, even Jinkee knew he lost the fight, did everyone see her reaction, they showed a clip of her when the scores were read out, the shock on her face said it all !!

I take a lot of what fighters say immediately after a fight with a pinch of salt. The guy has just spent the best part of 40 minutes being punched in the head for God's sake!! Manny has clicked into autopilot and said what he thought he needed to say.

Let's let the dust settle and see what else he says before coating him off.

I've not seen the fight yet but judging by everything I have read it stinks big time. Not something boxing needed at all.

Joey, I'm not for a single second suggesting that Pacquiao is the only fighter to claim that he won a fight most people felt he lost, far from it. But, regardless of who else has done it, it still got under my skin that he came out with the comment (before you say it, yes, I was annoyed and am still annoyed by Froch's continual claims that he was 'robbed' against Kessler).

Why should we feel sorry for Pacquiao? As I said, rightly or wrongly discontent amongst fans is common. Pacquiao, I'm sure, is big enough and ugly enough to suck it up without it effecting him too much.

no-mas wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

joeyjojo618 wrote:He personally didnt get away with murder. He fought honestly and lost (in real terms.) Its nothing to do with him that the judges failed to score the fight properly.

As far as Im concerned he did nothing wrong. And him claiming that he won after the fight, well so what? 1) he was probably told to be very careful about what he said since it might impact on future match ups and 2) How many boxers have said similar things immediately after a fight (which was my Froch point.)

My point is that for someone who perpetuates an image of being humble, virtuous and a 'people's champ', Pacquiao's insistence that he 'clearly' won is an insult to his opponent and to the intelligence of anyone watching.

His corner were telling him he needed a KO to win.

His body language at the final bell suggested he didn't feel he'd won.

To come out after that and have the gall to try and argue that "I clearly won, a lot of the fans thought I won" is pretty shameful. I'm not entirely sure why you think Froch has any bearing on this because the fights are two very different circumstances.

i agree with the above, even Jinkee knew he lost the fight, did everyone see her reaction, they showed a clip of her when the scores were read out, the shock on her face said it all !!

I did see that, and it's another indication of just how many people thought Marquez had won. Even Khan has Marquez winning by a couple of rounds, and he's so far up Pacquiao's backside he can taste his fillings.

I have already explained why I brought Froch into this, many many boxers say similar things after a fight (Im literally just paraphrasing the post you quoted, which Im not convinced you read ) Hatton was winning the second by a mile, lest we forget.

I think 'shameful' is extremely melodramatic, but to each his own. I suspect that when the dust settles team pacman will see whether Marquez wants a rematch and might start making different noises.

[In response to Balti;

"To come out after that and have the gall to try and argue that "I clearly won, a lot of the fans thought I won" is pretty shameful. I'm not entirely sure why you think Froch has any bearing on this because the fights are two very different circumstances."]

Cant be bothered to think about editing a quote in.

Frochs just speaks pure bile so iv learned to ignore his evil mouth a long time ago

In regards to the Pooch...I dont blame him for saying "I think I won the fight" but to say "The fans know I won the fight" is Audley Harrison style delusional

I wanted Panny to win as it made better for a Floyd matchup and its not his fault that the judges were on probably on Arums payroll, but he has gotta accept that this fight was another slur on boxings name

I read the post, but as I said the situations are significantly and substantially different as to render Froch irrelevant in this. When the dust settles the 'official' line from Pacquiao's camp will be that Marquez lost the fight in the last two rounds (tell that to the 116-112 guy), and that Arum will willingly arrange a re-robbery in May. Koncz has apparently already advised Pacquiao against a fourth fight though, so we'll have to wait and see.

I dunno I sometimes feel Pacquiao can do no right on here. He fought Marquez a third time, all you heard was complaints. If he offers him an immediate rematch will anyone say fair play? I doubt it. It will all be Arums greed, Marquez should turn it town, rigged etc. Its not Pacquiaos fault the judges had a howler and I dont honestly think its realistic to come out and say he lost straight after the fight.

I get the criticisms of Pacquiao up to a point. Its part of the burden of being the top one or two fighters in the world. But his rivalry with Mayweather seems to have had the effect of really polarising many people to the point where one guy is the devil and the other is white as snow.

I think there is a tendancy to lose sight of the fact Pacquiao has been one of the best boxers of this decade and one of the highest value for money and entertainment.

Steffan wrote:Frochs just speaks pure bile so iv learned to ignore his evil mouth a long time ago

In regards to the Pooch...I dont blame him for saying "I think I won the fight" but to say "The fans know I won the fight" is Audley Harrison style delusional

I wanted Panny to win as it made better for a Floyd matchup and its not his fault that the judges were on probably on Arums payroll, but he has gotta accept that this fight was another slur on boxings name

I'd say that a lot of people probably felt that way before the fight. Marquez winning the fight would leave a Pacquiao-Mayweather fight all but dead in the water. It'd need at least another year to build it up to mega-fight proportions again. Both guys would have aged in that time and there's no guarantee that they'd both continue winning before they could fight. The fans' interest would diminish and wane, and Pacquiao would not be able to command the split or the conditions he has been demanding thus far.

No-one would want to see Marquez fight Mayweather again, so conclusive and one-sided was the first fight, so in a sick and twisted sense a Pacquiao win was 'better' for boxing, in that it keeps a Mayweather fight in the pipeline. Of course, the robbery has tainted boxing once again with accusations of corruption, but I dare say that these cracks can be papered-over, probably with crisp fresh $100 dollar bills...

PS Steffan I know you have a Froch poster on your bedroom ceiling really...

Personally fail to see how someone getting robbed is in any way shape or form good for boxing. If a fighter deserves to get the nod he should do, pretty much end of as far as I'm concerned, if that means a Manny and Floyd fight is either no longer viable or does not make as much money, tough they pay the price for acting like children and not getting the fight made two years ago when they should have.

I met Froch the other week by the way, lovely bloke.

DAVE667 wrote: I believe this will happen as he can no longer find an excuse NOT to fight Mayweather. After Saturday's performance against JMM, I think Floyd will be straining at the leash to get this one signed. If anyone thinks Manny put on a deliberately poor performance to lure Floyd in then you need to watch one of Manny's action movies...he's not THAT good an actor!

He doesn't need an excuse as long as Mayweather continues to make the PED/take the test claims. Mayweather, if anything, is in a stickier position in that if he does now "strain at the leash" to make the fight it will show up his prior claims as false baseless and just an excuse to avoid the fight when Manny was/looked dangerous. The only thing that's changed is how obvious it is Manny's there for the taking (for a great like Floyd).

Actually feel a tiny bit bad for Mayweather, it's almost a lose-lose situation. Take the fight and win: 1) Previous comments shown up and 2) Credit not as great as Manny considered a 'spent force' which JMM had already set a blue-print for beating; Take the fight and lose: 1) See 1 above and 2) legacy seriously undermined (see 2 above); Don't take the fight: retains some professional pride but will still possibly be remembered more for who he didn't fight than for who he did.

Always thought Floyd would've won a UD by 3-4 rounds, should've taken the fight.....

rowley wrote:Personally fail to see how someone getting robbed is in any way shape or form good for boxing. If a fighter deserves to get the nod he should do, pretty much end of as far as I'm concerned, if that means a Manny and Floyd fight is either no longer viable or does not make as much money, tough they pay the price for acting like children and not getting the fight made two years ago when they should have.

I met Froch the other week by the way, lovely bloke.

Careful, you'll make Steffan jealous. All I mean by 'better' for boxing was that as far as the money men are concerned the robbery keeps the big money fight as a possibility.

J.Benson II wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:
After Saturday's performance against JMM, I think Floyd will be straining at the leash to get this one signed.

I'm not so sure about that. Mayweather generally likes to fight opponents whose stock/marketability is high and opponents coming off big and impressive wins (Hatton-Castillo, Mosley-Margarito, Ortiz-Berto etc).

Paquaio's rep is currently at one its lowest points and the fight wouldnt generate the same interest as it would have previously. The fight will still be a massive PPV event, but there will be a strong sense of ambivalence and apathy from fans leading towards to fight. In what could have once been the biggest single sporting event of the decade, will be seen as a somewhat routine Mayweather victory. Even in winning, Mayweather wouldnt get any much credit. After all, he'd have beaten a guy who has just come off a dire performance against an opponent that Mayweather previously schooled.

I wouldnt be surprised if Mayweather ignores Paquaio altogether and focuses on an in-form opponent that's riding a wave of popularity.
If Khan does the business against Peterson and looks good doing so, don't be surprised if we see a Mayweather-Khan showdown in 2012.

I honestly don't think it will matter to the army of pro-Manny fans. They'll buy the fight irrespective thus guaranteeing Floyd a massive payday thus Floyd will be happy to sign. Floyd wasn't bothered about making Marquez jump up two weights and then not bothering to stick to the weight stipulation. He wan't bothered that many felt Mosley was way waaaay past his best. He wasn't bothered that Ortiz had done nothing special to warrant a shot at the p4p king....Floyd won't care than Manny looked bad against Marquez. Manny's looked bad against Marquez before and Floyd wanted the fight.

I find it hard to feel bad for either Pacquiao or Mayweather in regards to them not getting the fight done. They overcooked it and have nobody else to blame really.

I dont think either of them particularly wanted the fight and both were content to make their money seperately rather than take the big risk.

manos de piedra wrote:I find it hard to feel bad for either Pacquiao or Mayweather in regards to them not getting the fight done. They overcooked it and have nobody else to blame really.

I dont think either of them particularly wanted the fight and both were content to make their money seperately rather than take the big risk.

Agreed!!!!!!!

As I mentioned on another thread...I think Marquez should say knickers to the lot of 'em and set up a massive all Mexican clash with Morales.

I think Marquez v Morales would sell well but not on the level that a Marquez v Pacquiao IV would. If he wants to turn down a fourth fight with Pacquiao then its understandable I think but I would struggle to see him turning down what would almost certainly be a career high purse. Especially given he probably only has a few more fights left in him at most.

The thing that is irritating me the most is people making a case for Manny, I know scoring is subjective and I try to understand every ones point of view but how on earth people say it could have gone either way is beyond me, I had it 9 – 3 for Marquez and that was being generous, I scored one round a draw but gave it to Manny, I have seen people claim Manny won on aggression but he never landed a decent shot, he was out thought, out manoeuvred out fought all the way through, all you need to know that this fight was a steal for top rank was the reaction of Manny at the end, his corner who looked defeated when they came in to the ring at the end, the reaction of Jinkee when the score was read out, Khan who like has already been said gave it to Marquez and the reaction of 17,000 people in the arena tells you all you need to know

Given that he's been involved in a mega fight with Mayweather, a highly lucrative trilogy with Pacquiao and a big all-Mexican showdown with Barrera, I'd like to think that Marquez is in a position where financial gain doesn't need to be the cornerstone in deciding what fight (if any) he takes next.

I said yesterday that if I were Marquez I'd forget about another fight with Pacquiao, on the grounds that it would have to happen in Vegas again, with the same people promoting / advertising it, and probably with similar people judging it - what makes anyone think he'd get a fair crack next time out? Also, at thirty-eight, there's going to come a time fairly soon that he hits a steep decline - I'd hate to see him take a fourth fight with Pacquiao, take a beating and end up with a 0-3-1 record against him when, in reality, he'd deserve to be level with Pacquiao in their series at the very least.

I suppose I'd like to see Marquez retire on a 'moral victory' and with his stock still very high, but I don't think he will, and that's understandable given the quality of his performance on saturday.

He probably doesnt need the money in the strict sense, but its also another thing to turn down what I suspect would be a career high purse. I think from the fans perspective people would like to see him walk away from either another potential robbery, or potential beating if hes on the slide. But the sport is all about money and from his perspective Im sure he could always find use for another 10 million dollars or so.

Gotta ask how many people would buy the fourth fight after last weekend. I believe people would be turned off by the obvious duplicity of Arum etc. No-one would begrudge Manny the victory if the fight was another close contest but it simply wasn't and do people want to be party to screwing Marquez over and lining Arums pockets into the bargain again?

Not sure Marquez actually NEEDS the money and I love to believe him to be a proud enough man to ignore the lure of the almighty dollar. He would fight Manny for free if he believed he would get a fair shake on the scorecards. He chased Pacquiao for years as he believed he was the better fighter and sought a chance to prove it not a chance to make a fortune.

For years Marquez lived in the shadow of Barrera and Morales and never got the opportunity to prove himself their equal. Yes Morales has returned and is not the fighter he once was but Marquez is no spring chicken either. To my mind, I believe Marquez would relish the opportunity to fight a fellow warrior and with a level playing field to boot.

Marquez/Morales at LWW with Marquez earning his rightful place in the pantheon of Mexican boxing heroes.

Id definately watch a 4th installment. All 3 have been great fights. Sure, the result was unsatisfying in the last one (arguably the other 2 aswell) but it was great spectacle and Im positive a 4th fight would generate huge interest and finance. Who wouldnt watch it? I know people might complain now about the result but realistically if it was made would people really not tune in?

It's not about watching the fight...I'm talking about PAYING for it.

DAVE667 wrote:It's not about watching the fight...I'm talking about PAYING for it.

Yeah Id be happy to pay for it again. I think most people would to be honest. I genuinely dont think many people would boycott it based on the last result. If anythng I think it only adds to a fourth showdown.

I'm never giving Arum a penny.

BALTIMORA wrote:I'm never giving Arum a penny.

I supect he will manage to get by Balti.

rowley wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:I'm never giving Arum a penny.

I supect he will manage to get by Balti.

You say that ROWLEY but remember this global recession affects all of us...'cept Coxy of course!

DAVE667 wrote:

rowley wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:I'm never giving Arum a penny.

I supect he will manage to get by Balti.

You say that ROWLEY but remember this global recession affects all of us...'cept Coxy of course!

He's probably out now blowing his wad on fast living in an attempt to fill the void a 606-less week has created in his life.