Are pacquiao's pre marquez 3 opponents clouding everyones vision? pacs including?

Can i start by asking people not to shoot me down but heres my way of thinking.

After pac marq 3 ive read and heard alot of boxing followers saying it looks like pac has peaked, or hes distracted by political career. Could it actually be that watching pacquioa beating the crap out of opponents over the last couple of years, e.g. Hatton, Cotto, Marg, Clottey and "just turned up" Mosley, who all barring mosley are not very deffensive fighters, that people are just used to seeing pacquiao as a super human punching and accuracy machine and that now hes faced a top flight technically minded counter puncher (marquez) its something most are not used to and are calling him peaked?

And i know pacqiuao has had a previous 24 rounds with marq which were much closer but could pacuiao have got used to the "there to be hit" choice of oppoents aswel?

This may seem a very obvious question to ask but i have not read on any article when pacquiaos performance is questioned this possibility. I think if we stuck margarito in there saturday night or even hatton we would have seen manny box their ears of until it was lights out.

Am i talking nonsence?

Six of one, half a dozen of the other I'd suspect, dangerous_mouse. Marquez was / is certainly a cut above anything Pacquiao has faced since 2008 and so you're right in saying that we should maybe make an allowance for that, but at the same time, Pacquiao was lacking that same buzzsaw workrate we're used to seeing from him, wasn't as light on his toes creating those unusual angles anymore, and was lunging wildly with punches, almost swinging himself full circle when he missed - and I don't think that was all purely down to Marquez boxing well.

It doesn't necessarily mean that Pacquiao is past his best, either; everyone has off nights. I'll wait and see how Pacquiao looks in his next fight before jumping to any conclusions about him being on the wrong side of the hill, as Mosley's reluctance to engage last time out made it a little difficult to accurately gauge how good Pacquiao was for that bout.

I hear you on that one, but i felt it suddenly dawned on manny in the first 3 minutes of the fight that this is not going to be easy, this is no marg or clottey, this target is hard to hit and i have no plan B, havnt done this in years which ultimatley reduced his usual high output work rate, slightly demoralised. I also feel the low-er work rate was due to respecting the power and more so the accuracy and counter punching of marquez so couldnt come flying in with 4 or 5 shot combos.

i for one deffinatley dont beleive he has peaked, the guy is still on fire.

lets hope he doesnt want winner of cotto marg next.

One thing sticks in my mind above all... and that was Naseem Richardson shouting to Mosely: "He can't hit you on the backfoot, keep circling to your left!" and "I'm showing everyone else how to beat this mother(you know what)".

If his last 3 fights have shown one thing, and I've said it before. Is that Pacquiao is not effective fighting forward when you circle to the left.

Count how many times Marquez slipped Pacquiao by feinting left, ready for the counter straight right.

Manny is so used to a fighter coming forward, him and Roach are clueless when it comes to a smarter ring technician.

You make a really good point though Dangerous. He's been put in with guys who make him look good, guys who have a name and to pad out a record. Put him in with Mayweather and he will be eating counter right hands all night.

I think a quick look over Pacquiaos record debunks these myths that he only fights guys that make him look good. Hes fought most of the top names across 5 weights or so.

I think it just so happens that Marquez is a fighter that he struggles with stylewise. Nothing more, nothing less. To say any old technician makes him struggle is off the mark. He destroyed Barrera who is a smart ring technician for example. Marquez came into the fight having the style to flummox Pacquiao and 24 competitve rounds experience against him. He just knows how to fight him.

Im often amazed at how high or low a fighters stock can go after a single fight. In some corners its almost suggested now that its barely worth Mayweathers while fighting Pacquiao for instance and the fight is a forgone conclusion. Although Mayweather would rightfully grow as a favourite on the back of that last outing - understandable - its still not an easy fight by any means and Im actually not convinced even the great Mayweather is as adept at fighting Pacquiao as Marquez is. I think Marquez is a more natural counter puncher than Mayweather and is also better fighting under pressure against guys that cut off the space. What Mayweather is better at is being defensively slicker and staying out of range. But I think if Pacquiao quick enough to cut off the ring and close Mayweather down then Mayweather will find it more uncomfortable than Marquez with limited space.

And if he Pacquiao loses to Mayweather, I kind of feel so what? It doesnt make him a bad fighter or undermine what hes acheived already. Both guys legacies are secured its jst a matter of how great rather than the loser being undermined.

I would also add that I think if Mayweather felt the fight was as easy as many on here think then he would have a been more enthusiastic to cash on it to date.

I don't think so. Pacquiao is a great fighter who has beaten the best around whichever weight class he's fought. I think he edged Marquez 2, then there's MAB, morales, hatton, cotto. In 2009 pacquiao was at his absolute peak (when he destroyed hatton & cotto). I will say that one problem is, perhaps, he has become used to trying to overcome physical challenges and neglecting stylistic ones. It started with Oscar, then there became an emphasis on 'how high can little manny go'? Ending with a supposed LMW clash with marg who presented no stylistic challenge whatsoever. Mosley was a busted flush, and so since clottey in early 2010 manny has been fighting well within his comfort zone against bigger guys that were sitting ducks and offered no movement, speed or counters. Marquez is a different kettle of fish and is the type of opponent manny had left behind, hence the struggle. Add to that he clearly has mannys number and is a great fighter - but this doesn't automatically make manny a bad fighter, it's all about styles and everyone has a bogeyman.

Also the reason people say Manny feasts on Mayweathers leftovers is that they have fought some of the same opponents over the last few fights, so i don't take any complaints about his opponents seriously. I couldn't really care if Mayweather fought them first as the Marquez the other night was better than the one Floyd fought.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:I don't think so. Pacquiao is a great fighter who has beaten the best around whichever weight class he's fought. I think he edged Marquez 2, then there's MAB, morales, hatton, cotto. In 2009 pacquiao was at his absolute peak (when he destroyed hatton & cotto). I will say that one problem is, perhaps, he has become used to trying to overcome physical challenges and neglecting stylistic ones. It started with Oscar, then there became an emphasis on 'how high can little manny go'? Ending with a supposed LMW clash with marg who presented no stylistic challenge whatsoever. Mosley was a busted flush, and so since clottey in early 2010 manny has been fighting well within his comfort zone against bigger guys that were sitting ducks and offered no movement, speed or counters. Marquez is a different kettle of fish and is the type of opponent manny had left behind, hence the struggle. Add to that he clearly has mannys number and is a great fighter - but this doesn't automatically make manny a bad fighter, it's all about styles and everyone has a bogeyman.

this is what i mean, could pacman have got used to the same style of fighters over the past 3 years?

i really cant see him in a classic, brilliant fight against a stylistic fighter any more. Can anyone else? examples?

dangerous_mouse wrote:

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:I don't think so. Pacquiao is a great fighter who has beaten the best around whichever weight class he's fought. I think he edged Marquez 2, then there's MAB, morales, hatton, cotto. In 2009 pacquiao was at his absolute peak (when he destroyed hatton & cotto). I will say that one problem is, perhaps, he has become used to trying to overcome physical challenges and neglecting stylistic ones. It started with Oscar, then there became an emphasis on 'how high can little manny go'? Ending with a supposed LMW clash with marg who presented no stylistic challenge whatsoever. Mosley was a busted flush, and so since clottey in early 2010 manny has been fighting well within his comfort zone against bigger guys that were sitting ducks and offered no movement, speed or counters. Marquez is a different kettle of fish and is the type of opponent manny had left behind, hence the struggle. Add to that he clearly has mannys number and is a great fighter - but this doesn't automatically make manny a bad fighter, it's all about styles and everyone has a bogeyman.

this is what i mean, could pacman have got used to the same style of fighters over the past 3 years?

i really cant see him in a classic, brilliant fight against a stylistic fighter any more. Can anyone else? examples?

His fight against Marquez was a great fight entertainment wise was it not?

hmmm, this is true but more because of what marquez brought.

Not really...I've always said Manny is one dimensional and that If you take him out of his comfort zone he's screwed.....

also manos i meant a recent pacman in my opening question, indeed he has fought some brilliant fighters and beat them but this is pre 2008.

"Brilliant" fighters ????

I think Mayweather is a more technically gifted boxer than Marquez and this fight (Marquez - Pacquiao) indicates that Mayweather would be a favorite against Pacquiao.

I would ask whether or not there were any differences in Pacquiao's preparation for this fight compared to his other fights (e.g. blood testing?) but it seems Pacquiao has alway found Marquez a difficult challenge (so no different to what we already know - except we now know that Marquez is no match for Mayweather).

dangerous_mouse wrote:also manos i meant a recent pacman in my opening question, indeed he has fought some brilliant fighters and beat them but this is pre 2008.

His recent bout with Marquez was against a stylistic fighter and was entertaining I thought. I also thought his fight with Cotto was very good.

Manos what is your general feeling if pacman was to fight Andre berto (if he hadnt lost to ortiz), how would you see that one panning out?

i've always been quite excited about the fact.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:"Brilliant" fighters ????

you dont have MAB or Morales down as brilliant fighter?

Not when he beat them and they weren't brilliant fighters......

Barrera was considered finished before Hamed.....

Morales was a face first type albeit a good one....

They were accomplished guys but brilliant should be reserved for brilliant fighters...

Leonard, Robbo types...

dangerous_mouse wrote:Manos what is your general feeling if pacman was to fight Andre berto (if he hadnt lost to ortiz), how would you see that one panning out?

i've always been quite excited about the fact.

I think Ortiz showed that Berto is just too easy to hit. I dont think Pacquiao is quite as swarming as Ortiz but I think hes a level or two above Berto in class and his speed of attack would be too much for Berto to deal with or defend against.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not when he beat them and they weren't brilliant fighters......

Barrera was considered finished before Hamed.....

Morales was a face first type albeit a good one....

They were accomplished guys but brilliant should be reserved for brilliant fighters...

Leonard, Robbo types...

Considered by who? he should've gotten the decision against a top 3 P4P unbeaten machine in Erik Morales and then put on masterclass against Jesus Salud before beating another P4P unbeaten fighter Hamed, if that's finished then god help boxing!

Give credit where credit is due, it's an unbelievable win for him, the best of his career IMO.

He was a big underdog against Hamed.....Lost twice to junior, strugggled against Mckinney and had lost to Morales...

Stop rewriting history...Few people thought he'd win..

What are you talking about rewriting history?

You don't make sense? So what he was underdog he wasn't a big one, Hamed was thought of as a super power. Barrera had beaten Morales and Hamed before meeting Pacquaio, he was considered a top 3-5 P4P youre talking nonsense saying he was considered finished he wasn't! Hence the reason he was heaving fancied over Pacquaio

He was a superpower after being decked twice/three times against Kevin Kelley???

You don't know what you're talking about..

manos de piedra wrote:

dangerous_mouse wrote:Manos what is your general feeling if pacman was to fight Andre berto (if he hadnt lost to ortiz), how would you see that one panning out?

i've always been quite excited about the fact.

I think Ortiz showed that Berto is just too easy to hit. I dont think Pacquiao is quite as swarming as Ortiz but I think hes a level or two above Berto in class and his speed of attack would be too much for Berto to deal with or defend against.

good point, so thats that match up out of the window. There really is no one else for pac but floyd unless LMW is on the horizon.

You're showing yourself up, didn't he knock Kelley out in 4? Ring magazine had ranked 4 on the mythical P4P rankings after that victory, why can't younjust give him credit for a fantastic win,possibly the win of the noughties! Just because he isnt American it's about time you give credit where credit is due.

If you think Barrera was considered finished when Manny beat him, you're dafter than I first thought.

dangerous_mouse wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

dangerous_mouse wrote:Manos what is your general feeling if pacman was to fight Andre berto (if he hadnt lost to ortiz), how would you see that one panning out?

i've always been quite excited about the fact.

I think Ortiz showed that Berto is just too easy to hit. I dont think Pacquiao is quite as swarming as Ortiz but I think hes a level or two above Berto in class and his speed of attack would be too much for Berto to deal with or defend against.

good point, so thats that match up out of the window. There really is no one else for pac but floyd unless LMW is on the horizon.

I think hes too small for LMW as he barely ever even weighs in on the WW limit. So I would probably rule that out. I think the only real credible fight out there would be Bradley, Mayweather or Marquez again as things stand now (assuming he and Khan wont fight).

Theres a slim chance he might be tempted by Alvarez at a catchweight but I think he will avoid going any higher than WW personally.

Yes but a superpower doesn't get up off the deck three times to beat a guy who was mean't to be an easy night!!..A safe opponent to showcase his abilities in America...

Junior twice, Off the deck against Mckinney and a lost to Morales..end of!

Kelley had won only 6 of his last 9 fights coming into Hamed.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yes but a superpower doesn't get up off the deck three times to beat a guy who was mean't to be an easy night!!..A safe opponent to showcase his abilities in America...

Junior twice, Off the deck against Mckinney and a lost to Morales..end of!

You talk utter nonsense mate you really do !

Hamed was a superpower at the time he would've started favourite against anyone at the time possibly even Floyd!

Might as well say Hopkins was considered finished before his fight against Trinidad

dropped against Mercado twice, drew and beaten off Jones Jnr end of!

Top class son! you're theory, good even by your standards

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Kelley had won only 6 of his last 9 fights coming into Hamed.....

What's your point Hamed knocked him out!

Cooper an ordinary 14 stone heavy had Ali out, still Ali got up to win, you're talking garbage.

You're trying your upmost to discredit Mannys win against Barrera it doesn't wash and you know it.

No I'm suggesting that being decked off Kelley exposed certain weaknesses that made him a less than super-power type boxer...He was certainly big box office!!!

The reason he was a heavy favorite was because Barrera was thought to be on the slide!!!

It's your way or the highway is it...??

I have my opinion...you have yours...

and I respect it...............slightly.

last few fights.....

rocked off Augie Sanchez
w12 against Mccullough
w12 cesar soto
ko11 Ingle
decked three times against Kelley........

Hardly Robinson like is it...

No not at all

I think Hamed started favourite because everyone thought he had the power and speed to take anyone out at the time, that's my take. We possibly thought he was better than he actually was.

Anyway Ill leave at that, thanks

Have pleasant evening

You too...Been a pleasure!!!

I think too much is made of Manny's relentless, buzzsaw style. He wasn't a buzzsaw in any of the Marquez fights, largely because he was getting hit back and failing to land to any degree.
It's a pity that team Manny wanted nothing to do with Guzman all those years ago when Joan was challenging him at every corner. Might, or might not, have naswered a few questions.

Manny has always shown vulnerabilities to guys that don't come straight out and fight him head on. The problems have been that there hasn't been many that have fought him with the skillset to adopt the correct style of fighting him AND enough left in the tank to do it.

Barrera tried to fight Manny the first time and got his butt handed to him, second time around was much closer, even though Barrera was well past it and why was it a lot closer? Because Barrera and his team learned from the first Marquez fight, and in truth so did Marquez after the first round. Watch Barrera - Pacqiaou 2, watch how Barrera constantly circles to the left and notice how Manny is completely cueless as to how to launch attacks against him.

After doing this go back and watch the firs round of the Marquez fight you can see Marquez has little head movement and is being the aggressor and standing toe to toe with him, if he had continued this tactic he would have been made mincemeat of, but Marquez then started backing off and he noticed there were countering opportunities then we he realised backing off was having its perks he began circling to his left and realised Manny was severely struggling launching attacks at him.

Watch Morales the first time round, Morales keeps backing off doesn't circle to the left all that often but does at critical times, I'm not sure he actually figured out that was the way in which to beat him and just think he was sort of finding something that was working for him. Second time around he was perhaps on the slide and didn't have enough in the tank to do that anymore and in truth adopted poorer tactics which were more for a brawl and ended up being taken out, third time around we all saw what happened again but he was even further past it and attacked even more and was caught by Manny far too many times.

It's the way to beat Manny... No doubt he is a great, and I can't think of man that could take him on in a straight up toe to toe war with no backing off and win but boxing isn't about that. In truth he doesn't have a Plan B and is a bit one dimensional really, absolutely incredible alas maybe the best at what he does but that won't work against all comers.

As for this buzzsaw thing, it's interesting to me that people say this, I would like for you to watch him face Cotto when everyone was saying this was his peak and whatnot. Come back and tell me he works for 3 minutes of every round, if you say this, you are lying. In truth Manny took a lot of breathers and a lot of time outs in the fight, in fact if you watch during nearly all the middle and late rounds, Manny takes the first minute of the round off! THEN he goes to work and builds up a tempo right the way through. It opened Cotto up for the first minute then he took it all away. For me he's not really a "Buzzsaw" Aaron Pryor is a buzzsaw, Pacqiaou isn't like that...

He is great and his record speaks for itself but like I say, he doesn't understand how to unlock defences and he has a massive problem with fighters who circle to the left. Nazim Richardson told Mosley how to win what to do with your feet and you have a chance, problem was with Mosley once he took a big shot he was gun shy and was well past it anyway.

Manny struggles and gets frustrated by counter punchers.

Against Cotto at one point Cotto started counter punching and Manny became frustrated, threw less and looked untidy. Cotto's warrior instinct then kicked in and he fought Manny's fight.

There were a few instances in that fight where he reminded me of Duran against Leonard (2nd fight) and he was visilby annoyed that Cotto wasn't just standing there trading with him.

Hard to guage how much he has slowed, he is always slower against counter punchers.