PGA Tour: Thanksgiving and Post-Mortems: Notes from the Ballwasher

1).Thanksgiving on Thursday, so Thanks to 606v2 for providing a platform for this brilliant golfboard, and Thanks to all the readers and posters who tolerate this Ballwasher drivel. And also, of course, those who don't.

2).The 2011 Presidents Cup has been and gone, some terrific golf on a wonderful course in about four different wind- and weather-patterns. In the end, so much promise of a rivetting competition evaporated in a meek surrender by the Internationals in general, the Aussies in particular. Almost as if staging the Pres Cup was Australia's victory. (Clearly Mick Channon should have replaced Greg Norman for reasons explained in last week's thread!)
Every indication that Nick Price will Captain the International Team at Muirfield Village in 2013, perhaps pitting wits against Mark O'Meara, or Tom Watson.

3).But Price, or whoever the Captain may be, will almost certainly be in a no-win situation; the American Team is unbeaten in North America but homefield advantage is not confined to venue. The PGA Tour determines the International Captain, the qualifying criteria and the order of play. Probably many other things besides which we have yet to discover. Critics, led by Fred Couples, pour scorn on the complaints by Norman, Els etc that the Home Team should choose whether foursomes or fourballs lead off the "Cup". Certainly the Internationals got royally thumped, but surely the home team should have the choice, as in Ruder Cup play?

4).The Captain will doubtless be a popular choice no matter who the selection is: Vijay Singh and Elkington must also have a shout as well as Price. But shouldn't the Internationals choose? Readers may or may not remember the mutiny a few years ago against David Graham, but here's a helping hand:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1008768/index.htm

Nice touch that David Graham had the balls to turn up at Royal Melbourne, perhaps not in the best health, to celebrate Australia being in the golf world spotlight, in his words, for one last hurrah of his lifetime.

5).But qualifying criteria is odd. The US Team is picked based on money won, the Internationals strictly taken from official world golf rankings, not points won this year which would better reflect current form. At least allow the Internationals to make their own rules as Norman has advocated. (Incidentally, given the trauma disclosed on this site present in Allenby's personal life, it is, with hindsight, a shame he didn't stand down and allow Norman a more competitive "pick", presumably John Senden. For those saying Norman should have chosen Oosthuizen, congratulations for your foresight! Who'd've thunk he'd turn an utterly dismal year - no top tens since January at the time of selections - to gold over the past two months?)

6).Regardless of all the would've, could've, should'ves above, and please make some changes Finchem before the world tires of your little international garden party, the Internationals were thoroughly outplayed and will be for the foreseeable future. Unless you make some fundamental changes. What about a "Cup" with five teams representing:
North America, South America, Asia, Australasia, Africa?
Perhaps four- or six-man teams with Foursomes, fourballs and singles, played every other year in the respective continents. There would be a closer team identity, and the competition could be moved around the world so that every continent sees the "Cup" every ten years.
If the teams were to be selected now, with one reserve, from the World Rankings based upon 2011 performance, they would be:
North America: Simpson, Johnson, Watney, Kuchar, (Stricker)
South America: Vegas, Villegas, Romero, Aguilar, (Cabrera)
Asia: Choi, Yang, Bae, Kim, (Ishikawa)
Australasia: Day, Scott, Baddeley, Senden, (Singh)
Africa: Schwartzel, Sabbatini, Oosthuizen, Coetzee, (Aiken)
Just a thought. We don't move "World" Championships round the globe, this could be the opportunity, but the PGA Tour wouldn't stand for it.

7).Woods was superb on Sunday, a bit-part player the rest of the week. But on Sunday his score, after 15 holes, was three shots better than anyone else. Baddeley had one of the best rounds, but was steam-rollered. (Others who lost their singles match, but still beat Mahan's +2 score against the dismal Day, included Simpson, Kuchar and Els.)
Much speculation that Woods will replace San Diego on his PGA Tour schedule with the AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am, which is held two weeks after San Diego/Abu Dhabi.
Whatever he gets up to, whatever money he chases, don't bet against him next week at his Chevron exhibition.

8).Final Stage Q-School starts once we've got the Thanksgiving mess safely out the way, in California's Palm Springs desert area. Six days of torture at the "Fall Classic". Among those competing will be:
Sang-Moon Bae
Chopra
Duval
Franco
Nathan Green
Gronberg
Janzen
Richard Johnson
David Lingmerth
Seung-Yul Noh
Owen
Petrovich
Vaughn Taylor
Weekley
Wetterich
and Old Colwyn's Ben Briscoe (About whom I'd never have been aware if not for "Ned", but clearly following in the Footjoy steps of fellow North Walian Errie Ball (the last remaining survivor from the first Masters, now 101 years old!).

9).Barry Lane and most of the Internationals came up short at Champions Tour Final Q-School. Canada's Jim Rutledge regained full "status" and Mark Mouland reprised his (utterly worthless) conditional status, but Fowler, Harwood, Lane, Martin, etc, all went home empty handed. Probably in their best interests that they did.

10).Well, Thanksgiving here on the West Coast of New England and 4 - 8 inches of snow-shovelling to prepare for as we head in to Wednesday. Courses closed for the season, and every Turkey's fate has been sealed. I'll be one of very few to enjoy one with bread sauce. And a few bottles of delicious Oregon Pinot Noir (Mac, the Bandon Dunes of the wine world). Happy Thanksgiving!

Excellent review of the Pres Cup status, kwini
Crossed my mind as well during the past week such an idea of an alternative 'Continental' Cup. And in an ideal world I'd throw Europe in there as well... Both the President's Cup and the World Cup have problems as they are at the moment, so something of a 'collage' of these two competitions would be worth a try. And moving something like that around all the continents could do wonders for the popularity of the game all around the world. Playing format could be a bit of a challenge, but I'm sure something could be imagined in the end. The Ryder Cup will always be something separate and totally different (with a very strong 'personality') and I think one of the problems of the Pres Cup from its inception has been that it tried to copy the Ryder Cup concept, which is not really possible...

Oregon Pinot Noir!? Never thought of seeing these words together, but then I'm a bit of an ignorant when it comes to American wines... Happy Thanksgiving!

I wish we had thanksgiving in the UK, I love Christmas dinner and it sounds like an excuse to do it twice.

Kwini I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on the pres cup but I see no reason why order of play or selection changes would actually help the internationals. If they lost their finchem influence the only thing to change would be them having no excuse for loosing. I don’t imagine the international team would change significantly if 2011 points gained were used instead of actual OWGR.

On this note does anyone know where you can get OWGR’s in an excel format?

As to Finchems next choice of international captain I don’t care as long as it is not Vijay. Not sure why anyone would want to do it anyway.


Is Tiger still associated with At&t, what with his at&t national, and if so it is no surprise he might boost another event they sponsor. Is that a sign he has to work a little harder to get the corporate types on his side these days?

I'm thankful for Thanksgiving too

If it wasn't for Thanksgiving, our American cousins would be driving us nuts with Christmas already

Not much to give Thanks for really, Mac, just an excuse for some more expensive bottles of wine. All a bit of a charade . . . . . . but my family disagrees!

Tiger still has AT&T making charitable contributions to his Foundation, HSBC too which probably speaks volumes about his trip to the Abu Dhabi event which HSBC sponsors.

As for the Pres Cup, I don't think any different order of play would have made any difference, or any other selection process - after all, if the two leading qualifiers, Day and Scott, had winning records by the same margin as their losing records, the Inter's would have won.

But any sort of competition is better when the rules are seen to be the same for both sides. The Ryder Cup offers homefield advantages like order of play and a selection process that better reflects current form; presumably because it is felt by the E.T. and PGA Of America that these are important. And that is reflected in the Captain's options.
The selection process for the US Team is much more reflective of current form than even a few years ago, and Azinger got to make four Captain's picks AND switch order of play.

What's good for the goose, and all that.


PS: Davie, They already are. The big event here is not really Thanksgiving and everyone making nice to each other. It's stores opening at Friday 12.00 a.m. (midnight) so that early shoppers can snatch up alleged bargains. A Walmart "greeter" trodden to death in the stampede a year or so ago. All this is good for the Chinese economy however. I ask you.

Ah yes Kwini - the "Black Friday" effect. It's interesting this year many UK stores (particularly UK Amazon) are having a "black friday" sale. Quite how we can have a black friday when we don't celebrate the thursday is beyond me

Its always going to be a level playing field when the opposing team picks your team for you. ...

Kwini, pd

Interesting idea with the Continental Cup. Just indulging for a moment I think like pd you'd have to include Europe in such a format, which would be the top 4 of the rankings as things stand! I'd still fancy Asia to do well as dark horses though.....

Of course it could never happen with Finchem running the show. The possibility of one event in the US in every 10 (or 12 with Europe) years?? Doesn't meet Timmy's definition of "Global".

Finally, following on from Iain Carter's article on Duval, hope to see him do well in Palm Springs next week.

Kwini, ok I will agree that at least giving each team the chance to control its own set up makes the thing look more credible, regardless of what change in the score it might produce.

As for thanksgiving, well I don’t celebrate Christmas for the baby Jesus so could easily quaff the turkey and throw back the wine so despite having little to thank the pilgrims or harvest (actually what is thanksgiving for?) for I would look forward to it. It must be a pretty fun day, right?


Ok here is a guess at tigers schedule for 2012, Kiwni maybe you could add or subtract a few based on what you think he will do?

1. HSBC
2. AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am
3. Accenture Match Play Championship
4. Cadillac Championship
5. Arnold Palmer Invitational
6. Masters Tournament
7. Wells Fargo Championship
8. THE PLAYERS Championship
9. the Memorial Tournament /or colonial
10. U.S. Open
11. AT&T National
12. The Open Championship
13. Bridgestone Invitational
14. PGA Championship
15. The Barclays

Notice that is only 14 pga events but he could go further in the fedex.

Wonderful write up Kwini. Thanks yet again.

Thanksgiving - the absolute best family Holiday IMO. Not overly hyped, get together with family and friends for food, drink and conversation. Very relaxing if you are not trying to travel today.

Mac - It's a sort of "celebrate the harvest" holiday, along with overtones of the Pilgrim's colony (as short lived as it was).

Among wine geeks there's always lots on controversy ... do we go with an American Zin (possibly our only native grape, although the Italians may differ with that), A California Cab? Both seems pretty strong for Turkey, so I'll take Kwini's suggestion with a less fruit forward Oregon Pinot.

Tiger still associated with the AT&T. http://web.tigerwoodsfoundation.org/events/attNational/index

Be curious to see how the President's Cup ratings fared. I suspect pretty well - given the lack of any serious "other sports" competition stateside. Tiger's involvement a significant shot in the arm, and Norman always good draw.

I'd be fine if the International Captain wanted to pick his entire team with no automatic qualification.

Mac,
That looks absolutely spot on to me, possibly add an E.T. payday in the way he used to play the old Deutsche Bank in Germany.
If he doesn't progress any further than the Barclays in the FedEx play-offs, the number of tournaments he contests won't be the big story!


Cheers pd, Shotrock,
Can't imagine many British people getting up for Thanksgiving; it's someone else's holiday and everything about it reminds one of that.
Travelling in the North Country dismal today, but first arrival due at the airport in on-time. Miracle. Good job it's not sunny! The airport's snowploughs doing a great job!!

Kwin - Do me a favor and keep the snow up there! Playing in a one-club tournament this weekend. And check the calendar -- it's still Fall!

Glad the family will make it on time, and safely.

kwini

I will celebrate anything that involves good food and wine.


Do you subscribe to the theory that Tiger needs to play more often than that schedule would suggest (more reps) or do you think it is sustained periods on the range without injury that will get him back to winning ways?

Sr, We postponed the crew driving from "The Valley" until Thursday. Snow late this year!


Mac,
I don't care how often he plays but he shouldn't play a light schedule and then blame that for his poor form - which is what he's been doing. I admire great golf as much, or more, as the next person but I can't stand divas and that's how he comes across to me.

So it's official, Lee is going back on the PGA Tour...

“I missed The Players Championship last year when watching it on television. It was always a scheduling issue for me. Though the rules changed making it exempt from PGA TOUR restrictions, I had already set my schedule for later in the year in Asia. I didn’t want to break any of those commitments" etc.....

What does everyone make of Iain Carter saying Westwood wants to join the PGA Tour for next year. Given his schedule for 2011, I personally think it would be a good idea - he'd just need to get some US events taken care of early and there's always the problem of burn-out.
I'd say Luke Donald and Sergio are the only Europeans to successfully manage two schedules. Especially in a Ryder Cup year.

pd, SNAP!

Outside of the majors I dont think Westwood plays particularly well in the States, certainly not exceptionally well. I think he is in his comfort zone on the European Tour where he is defintely seen as one one of the top boys.

Well, Digs, he nearly won The Players last year. Squeaked a win at Memphis too.
But agree he won't win consistently unless he starts holing putts.

Tiler,
We'll be following Duval and the rest of them on this thread, or its sequel next week.
Live scoring from next Wednesday on pgatour.com.
Usually more compelling than some tournaments! But perhaps especially so this year with some very good players fighting for their careers.

I think the simple truth is he has never won consistently there (twice in how many starts), and I dont have any stats to hand but I would imagine his 10 top finishes as a ratio to starts is also massively down on the PGA Tour compared to the European.
I just dont get the impression he likes it that much over in the States, always seemed to get that impression from his interviews.

Just a general note guys please PM me or Navy instead of reporting if you want it stickied

Thanks

I thought we agreed not to sticky the ballwasher threads as part of our drive for minimal stickies?

Digs,
Much improved over the past four seasons though, especially in the Majors. Doubt if many have a better top three ratio than Lee in his last fifteen Major starts.
Motivation now most likely to best prepare himself for the Majors, and who can blame him?

Thanks Fernando.

Mac,
I thought we agreed to keep them up for one week or until they were superseded. That's what I was told.

Seems John Daly has rsvp'd "Thanks, but no thanks, y'all" to the South African Open. But will be playing in Hongkers next week.

kwinigolfer wrote:Seems John Daly has rsvp'd "Thanks, but no thanks, y'all" to the South African Open. But will be playing in Hongkers next week.

Is that as opposed to playing in pink floral strides - and a cravat; hope he's got the balls to complete a few rounds his time .

Quality Report again Kwini, best read of the week and thanks for the link to the Presidents Cup David Graham story, I was unaware and surprised at the actions of some of the 'greats' back then. Just goes to show that lack of communication, overgrown ego's and Mule type stubbornness is not new. Perhaps, Fincham orchestrating the whole shooting match might not be so selfish after all, for if it were up to the players it looks to me like they would be quite capable of messing it up on their own anyway

Cheers Yads, I had remembered the Graham story but couldn't recall the exact details. The triumph of Google reveals some usually very quiet men turning into conspirators!
Think Price would be a good choice for next time.

Shocking round being pieced together by Adam Scott. Two birdies, two pars, two bogeys, a double and a triple.
After just 8 holes.
Stevie must be steaming.

Kwini

It would take the most ardent Westwood detractor to argue against his major record in recent years, certainly for consistency. But then that suggests that his preparation is good, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it? I think he just needs a Sunday where a few putts go in. I'm with Diggers, Westy doesn't seem to cut a happy figure in the States, for whatever reason. Presumably the move is with a view to major preparation, but I'd be concerned that a lack of results in regular season events would dent the confidence. Hope I'm wrong though.

From a purely selfish point of view, I watch a lot more of the PGA Tour than Euro Tour, so I think it's great news! Westy, Luuuke & Rory battling it out, dare I suggest with an outside chance of Tiger or Sergio..... happy days!

Tiler,
Don't you think there's a flavour of, "Look, I think I've prepared as well as I can, but I've just come up short. Everyone rabbits on about focussing on the PGA Tour so I'll give it one last try."?
Trouble with playing the events that he mostly has done over here is that they're very hit-and-miss tournaments with the weather. Honda is invariably windy and is played on ultra-grainy Bermuda greens, Houston weather runs the gamut and Memphis is like a sauna.
I wouldn't say this is hints at desperation, but feels like he's determined to try everything. Just hope he gives himself a proper chance. Fit in two or three Gulf events. L.A., WGC MatchPlay, Doral, maybe Transitions. Masters, Quail Hollow, Players, Memorial/Wentworth, Olympic Club, Europe, Bridgestone, PGA, 3 x FedEx. Ryder Cup.
He certainly doesn't need to be travelling backwards and forwards.
You're right, an exciting year to look forward to.

Some last 10 holes by Scott to get back to 2 under. I wonder what Stevie said to him on the 18th tee? (his ninth)

Faldono1fan wrote:I wonder what Stevie said to him on the 18th tee? (his ninth)

Probably told him to get his act together or he was fired

Very good Davie!

Hi Kwini

You may be right, only Westy knows the real reasons and he may or may not ever divulge them. I just think that he's cut a miserable looking figure at times this season on the golf course, and would be worried that more golf in the States (where's he not had huge success, whatever the reasons) might not be the answer, if majors are the motivation.

Or perhaps it's simply down to cash! Maybe he saw what happened to Bill Haas and thought "I need to get me a piece of the action..."

Whatever the reason, we wish him well.

kwini,

Any reports/updates on the the Player of the Year nominations? I assume common sense will apply and Luke will win it.

kwini

Swap the Oregon Pinot Noir for some South African Pinotage otherwise a faultless article

Hi Scottie,
All ballots have to be in by (I think) Dec 9th. No word until after that date.

d4s
We really don't see much of a selection of South African reds; I worked for a Saffer in Dallas who used to have a couple of cases a week shipped to him personally; lots of memorable barbeques there! (But I'll keep my eyes open.) Most will disagree, but I reckon Williamette Valley (Oregon) wines are superior to Californian at twice the value. (Not the range of course, but that's what France, Italy and Spain are for.)

Goosen maintaining his form of last week, but Ernie off to a slow start.
Extraordinary round by Adam Scott in Australia. Wish he'd become the consistent winner instead of the somewhat fickle golfer he seems destined to be.

Hi kwini,

Happy Thanksgiving to all. Here's a days old interview with Adam Scott from PGA Australia: http://www.pga.org.au/article-display/scott-finds-his-groove/132882

He seems very positive about his form and future. Talks a bit about the President's Cup. That was a crazy round he shot. Hopefully Ernie will be in contention Sunday afternoon to defend his title.

Have you tried any of the wines from New Zealand or Australia? Had a few bottles of pinot noir from NZ recently. Very good.

venice,
Yup, try several Down Under vinos, especially NZ. But on my "bucket list" is a "Sideways" week in the Williamette and Columbia Valleys!

Meanwhile, perhaps you and Shotrock both have Bully Hill on your tables? Have a Happy one!

Thanks for the Adam Scott link.

Interesting how Scott chosen the Bahamas as one of his golf get-away to practice facilities for the time being. I wonder if the English stamp on the Islands has anything to do with his choice. Also, have never met anyone who had a bad word to say about the place.

Had one of the best meals of my life in Nassau, place called Graycliff. Just fabulous. Don't Poulter and Rose, and maybe Ernie have places there? Maybe it's an even better getaway for Ana?

Kwin/Venice - Turkey roasting and you've convinced me to go with a Pinot! No Bully Hill on the table, but some Saranac chilling. An acquaintance of mine started a winery, so I'm supporting his cause: http://www.kutchwines.com/wines.html

Happy Thanksgiving all who are celebrating.

Just to clarify, Final Stage Q-School is a six-day, no-cut event and begins next Wednesday, November 30th concluding the following Monday, Dec 5th.
The Golf Channel televise on Saturday, Sunday and Monday, not sure what play will be carried in GB&I. Regardless, compelling viewing in store, especially on Monday.
Follow the play via pgatour.com who offer a "Live" scoring service.

Ref: Ballwasher note #10: With the death this week of Joseph Lewis at the age of 103, in Wyncote, PA, Bangor's Errie Ball becomes the oldest surviving PGA of America Member.
We'll get the BBC to recognise him yet!

Confirmation of final field for the Chevron giveaway:
Bradley
Casey
Choi
Day
Fowler
Furyk
Haas
Z.Johnson
Kuchar
Laird
Mahan
Simpson
Stricker
Van Pelt
Watney
Watson
Woodland
Woods

Can't help feeling there have been some drop-outs, Dustin Johnson perhaps being one.
Can only hope the boys come to play at the Nedbank, Luke Donald still scheduled to play, plus Kaymer, Westwood, King Charl and McDowell.

Kwini,

Why do you hope they turn out for Nedbank? As far as I'm concerned the more big names who skip these joke tournaments the better. If the fields get worse, the guaranteed ranking points for turning up will be slightly fewer, and maybe (hopefully) the pots of gold will start to diminish. I know there's not a huge number of respectable tournaments around at this time of year, but to be honest I'd rather see them all take a week off than join in a jaunt like the Chevron or Nedbank. "Shark Shootout" another one.

Ned,
Completely agree. But there's no reason why "joke tournaments" should give Americans an advantage, that was meant to be the essence of my comment.
To me the scandal of these tournaments is compounded by offering points to the respective 12th and 18th place finishers, bad play being rewarded by the supposedly merit based rankings. Couldn't care less about the money though.

Shark Shootout is merely meant to be entertainment, and usually is; no problem with that whatsoever. But you're right, participants shouldn't complain about not having enough time off.

Perhaps I'm odd then, I find the bog-standard tour events we have the rest of the year much more entertaining, they have a bit of context for a start.

Point taken with the American weighting, thought you were commenting on it from an OWGR angle rather than a US vs Europe one

Lots of people seem to be giving this Chevron event to Tiger before he's even struck a ball

I can see quite a few names there that I'd fancy to go lower than Tiger - Casey, Day and Fowler before I even get half way down the list

Tiger's had three times as many wins in the past three years as that lot have had in their career. Combined.

You can pick dates for anything. Why three years and not the OWGR-backed two?

I'm siding more towards Davie, I think Woods is favourite just because the course, the week, everything is geared up towards him, and he clearly has been playing better golf these past few weeks than for a while. But it's still wide open.