Brian Smith Gone

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15876443.stm

Looks like England are now short a Head Coach/Team Manager and an Attack Coach.

By the sounds (and look of it) of it they have been lacking an attack coach for some while already!!

It's certainly the first clean break for a while.

Funny how Declan Danehar...has come out and supported Smith for his time at LI saying that he was clear and concise in what he wanted and everyone followed it well.....

Do you think theres been a case of too many Chiefs and not enough indians with regards to the coaching team. Ie Smith trying to play one way...Wells wanting another...and the one who should have been dictating - MJ not really being in charge....
Of course i could be completely wrong.....

terrible offload, just terrible...

I think it was a case that Smith just wasn't on the same wave length as the others, England's play often looked so disjointed that it was pretty obvious the fowards defence and attack coach were not on the same wave length. Johnno can talk about what he wants but the coaches were there to shape his vision.

There needs to be an overhaul of the coaching setup and this is just the first casualty as far as that is concerned.

Could England pull out of the 6 nations as a result?

If they play in it I reckon it will either be a GS or a WS....

Can sombody enlighten me but isnt the RFU now open to litigation from Smith over the leak? I mean its going to affect his employment prospects.

Andrew saying its rock bottom is correct surely it cant get any worse for England. Its as bad as the darlest days of the WRU civil war a few years ago.

I really dont see this "caretaker coach" as a solution on the playing side I think they need someone damn good and soon. However, I have no idea how the sort out the mess the administration is in.

If you listen to LD's commentary just as the England v France game is kicking off it's interesting stuff.

He says something along the lines of : this isn't about game plans, this is about selections, this isn't about structures and team meetings, it's all about guts and pride and putting yourself on the line for your country.

That's clearly nonsense. Given LD is cut from the same cloth as MJ, I wonder whether he didn't have a similar attitude. It must have been hard as a coach, in that case, to operate in such an environment.

OzT wrote:terrible offload, just terrible...

Sorry - in one of those moods.

atuakiwikiwi wrote:If you listen to LD's commentary just as the England v France game is kicking off it's interesting stuff.

He says something along the lines of : this isn't about game plans, this is about selections, this isn't about structures and team meetings, it's all about guts and pride and putting yourself on the line for your country.

That's clearly nonsense. Given LD is cut from the same cloth as MJ, I wonder whether he didn't have a similar attitude. It must have been hard as a coach, in that case, to operate in such an environment.

I disagree with Lawrence somewhat. It is about selection and game plan. But also about mental toughness.

Guts and spitting blood was how Lawrence played. Made him a better player than he would have been otherwise. A dead nuts, never give an inch mentality, openly displayed lifted teams. Lawrence is loud where Jonno was quieter. Different personalities. Both worked terrifically well when playing. But a coach, when things are going badly, has got to be able to grab players by the....scruff of the neck at times. Not sure Jonno had that. Not that I am saying Lawrence should be coach. That would be nuts! But he has a characteristic a leader sometimes needs. And which player on the current England roster have that?

has got to be able to grab players by the....scruff of the neck at times. Not sure Jonno had that

That's about the only thing I think Johnno has on his side. He was certainly good at doing that as a captain. I think the problems lay in the fact he struggled to get the coaches to get the players playing how he wanted them too. The communication and set up wasn't right. MJ's lack of experience probabley counted against him in the end despite improvements during his tenure.

MJ and now Smith. At least the chaff is being identified and discarded. The slate is being wiped clean. Trouble is it will take some effort for the side to get back up to speed after the RWC fallout which is making Twickenham look like Chernobyl at the moment.

to be fair at least he has done the decent thing and go quickly before he is pushed. Others should take note

Be honest no attack coach is going to be able to change the playing style of England. Numerous coaches have tried it since 2003 and all have failed. Unless there's a complete overhaul of the team with the young U20's players who have impressed in the past. England aren't going to be playing flawless expansive attacking Rugby in the next 4 years.

That is because essentially England still play setpiece rugby. They like to batter up front and score by acquiring territory using forward domination. It is old school and highly predictable and has worked for them. Add to that the necessity for it since they lost any sort of centre creativity after Greenwood left

I have always said i think we should play the style we are used to playing...

Just because the vogue is to play this huge expansive game...we dont have to.

Play with the big dominant pack....but still have the electric backs to finish off the possesion...and run it back when ever we get it...

And for those who say it doesnt work....its Worked for South Africa....!

Thats exactly what i think. But your pack tends to get bullied by certain sides though i.e. Ireland, South Africa

gowales wrote:Thats exactly what i think. But your pack tends to get bullied by certain sides though i.e. Ireland, South Africa

Buts because we have tried to create this expansive style...playing "athletic" forwards like Croft, Lawes (who is tough but is still lightweight at the moment) etc...instead of the traditional bruisers we used to play....

Buts because we have tried to create this expansive style...playing "athletic" forwards like Croft, Lawes (who is tough but is still lightweight at the moment) etc...instead of the traditional bruisers we used to play....

It's less about the players and more about the game plan. England outplayed Ireland up front in the RWC warm ups because they committed numbers to the breakdown and took the fight to the Irish (Croft playing very well as they did so). When England played Ireland in the 6N they tried to commit the smallest number possible to the breakdown and use forward pods wider. What happened was the likes of Deacon, Palmer and Wood found themselves on their own vs the entire Irish pack whist Corbs pretended he was a centre and Hartley stood chatting to Ashton. It's that type of terrible strategic planning we need to get over because I think we can safely assume that's not how Johnno envisaged them playing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Buts because we have tried to create this expansive style...playing "athletic" forwards like Croft, Lawes (who is tough but is still lightweight at the moment) etc...instead of the traditional bruisers we used to play....

It's less about the players and more about the game plan. England outplayed Ireland up front in the RWC warm ups because they committed numbers to the breakdown and took the fight to the Irish (Croft playing very well as they did so). When England played Ireland in the 6N they tried to commit the smallest number possible to the breakdown and use forward pods wider. What happened was the likes of Deacon, Palmer and Wood found themselves on their own vs the entire Irish pack whist Corbs pretended he was a centre and Hartley stood chatting to Ashton. It's that type of terrible strategic planning we need to get over because I think we can safely assume that's not how Johnno envisaged them playing.

Aye you have a point there too Sam...

Manu in the centres helped a bit too.

He generally does. Attacking backs are only as good as the ball they get though. During the 6N England could have had Dan Carter at 10 and Manu in the centre but it would have made no difference as the forwards were getting beaten up front.

English forward play has failed to adapt.

Their idea of "clever" is to infringe until someone gets a yellow card and then capitulate. They don't manage the breakdown numbers in a coordinated way. They don't counter strike the ruck when the chance presents and they don't concede quick ball strategically. They haven't mastered Ireland's maul tackle...

Frankly they're stuck in 2003, when illegal slowing was considered clever and effective and it won them a worldcup.

They need coaching and players smart enough to understand it and fit enough to implement it.